SIP - Pity Do Dah, SIP - Pity A

[CBDMed]

So for those of you who haven't seen what these SIP Buckets can do here are a couple pics from my last grow using them. I'm hoping to get something even close to this in all 6 buckets this grow. "I'm callin everyone to ride along, for another grow. We can laugh our lives away, & smoke weed once more".

Hahaha!

The SoHum will be on a F,W,F,W schedule & will be fed Re-Charge @ 5 gr. per gal every other feeding.

Hmm... is that double the recommended strength on the Re-charge?
And what do you find that does for you?

A couple of weeks ago I took a butt load of Clones from these 2 Chery On Top Plants. I also took Clones from an Aurora Indica which is not pictured. Not sure which one it was.... lol.

Hahaha!

Once my Clones rooted they were all put in Double Solo Cups. Clear Cup with holes in the bottom for drainage inside a Solid color cup. I do this so I can see the Root Growth & to see how wet the soil is.

Haha, I thought I was the only one who did that!
Do you just let your "over cup" fall down, and you don't try to snug it? And it does not restrict the plants from breathing at all?

 

[Emilya Green]

Hiya Emily, I’ve mentioned prev. so I doubt it’s escaped your consideration but I’ve found that nesting two 27gal Lon totes to be a huge move up, you can get. 6 gallon reservoir if you make it 6 inches H., prop the inner tote up with 6 inch pipe lengths set vertically. A 18 piece hole saw kit on The Nile is 30$, you can cut any size hole in plastic you need with that setup, incl. 4 and 6 inch dia. Looking forward to your grows, really happy to have another SIP grow buddy. I think you are going to get a kick out of this, it’s a DIY haven but new products everyday suddenly.

This is likely the direction that I will go with this. I like the idea of the larger rez. I will also take a float down the Nile to find that $30 deal... I definitely want that hole saw kit in my toolbox. I definitely need dollies under these tubs for the move between grow rooms, and then, once I get all of this built over the next month or so, I think I am going to end up with a much more professional approach to this growing thing.

I also have to note that I am finding it remarkable that after all of this time stressing proper watering in a closed container and becoming somewhat famous for that work, that one of the first followers and advocates of my watering method is now able to teach me a new trick or two. This is of course how karma and energy is supposed to flow, so @Buds Buddy, thank you for highlighting this method with pictures of your plants, proving for all of us to see, that you had found a better way. Apparently this is not new tech, but someone needed to try it and bring it to the cannabis world. Thank you also to @Azimuth for sticking with me until I got the main concepts down, and to @ReservoirDog for explaining in a very logical way why the plants adapt so readily to this system. It was your explanation that actually convinced me to go all in.

And now I am thinking how easy it would be to automate this system. This stuff is starting to get serious now.

Oh, someone was asking about my soil. I am using new FFOF for the most part, although some seedlings are started in Happy Frog. I purposely avoid using that starter soil in anything but solo cups, so there is not much in there. I am feeding with @Geoflora, and am very pleased to see how easily adaptable it is to SIP. My work here will be added to my official review of that amazing product.

 

[Azimuth]

I will also take a float down the Nile to find that $30 deal..

Pretty sure that's the wrong hemisphere.

 

[CBDMed]

Pretty simple construction, and works great with organics but I find you have to feed from the top. Water from the bottom consistently but feed from the top to keep the microbes engaged.

Hey Azi! I got a few hours, so I am trying to catch up!
Do you mean to say specifically that nutes should always go top down, but clear H2O should always go bottom up?
(And if so, why?)

Also, a total SIP-noob question (and I hope to keep reading).
What happens if I always water or fertigate top-down, and basically use the bottom as a big overflow reservoir (or a big drip tray)?
Thanks!

 

[CBDMed]

Allows the top of the soil to dry out a bit but still keep the reservoir full for on demand drinking.

Ahhh.... so you are saying the soil will stay too moist if I always water from the top??

EDIT: I think you answered this already but I can't delete an older post.

 

[Azimuth]

Do you mean to say specifically that nutes should always go top down, but clear H2O should always go bottom up?
(And if so, why?)

I've not had any luck fertigating through the rez with my organic nutes. They just didn't have the effect that I get putting them in from the top. Bottled nutes, on the other hand, that are chelated do seem effective from below.

What happens if I always water or fertigate top-down, and basically use the bottom as a big overflow reservoir (or a big drip tray)?

The soil seems to wick up the water in a gradient, wetter below and less moist as you go higher in the container. I think the roots get used to the relative moisture level at their level and watering from the top disrupts that balance. It just seems to work better letting it come up from below. Maybe later in flower when they drain the reservoir more quickly you can try watering through the top to fill the rez as that would give you extra storage capacity but I have no experience with that so really couldn't say if it would work. For most of the grow, however, stick to the plan, man!

Ahhh.... so you are saying the soil will stay too moist if I always water from the top??

Yes. And disrupt the moisture gradient that the plant has gotten used to.

 

[CBDMed]

I am officially joining the dark side today. I have stopped at Red Lobster to console myself with seafood and a strong rum and coke and I am now willing to confess that I just left Home Depot with the parts needed to turn 5 of my 5 gallon containers into SIPs. I need to transplant my 5 Purple Kush to their finals anyway and I can't think of a better time. Pictures later today

Wahoo!! I'm going to have to plant some popcorn in a SIP and get a quadruple crop, just to keep up!! Hahaha!

 

[CBDMed]

Buds you can run all of your buckets off a main rez with a control bucket that dictates level with a multiposition float valve. Totally gravity fed, passive. Cost almost inconsequential. Never fill your buckets once. For 5x5's on slightly different levels didn't make as much sense for me. For you with many more buckets, much smaller reservoirs....

Dog, thanks.
Just to ask, have you ever run an experiment in between top-watering (the spreader roots) and not top-watering (the spreader roots)?

 

[Emilya Green]

Pretty sure that's the wrong hemisphere.

I have just ordered my 19 piece hole saw kit by floating up the big river on this side of the world... they had it for $21.99. Six inch holes! I may go crazy with the power.

Regarding that... I am actually thinking of buying in the near future, enough materials to make 3 tubs at first and actually I will eventually need 9 to convert the entire operation over to SIP. Yes, I appear to be completely insane, because this means actually purchasing 18 tubs and about 4 miles of drainage pipe. Egads.

 

[Emilya Green]

Dog, thanks.
Just to ask, have you ever run an experiment in between top-watering (the spreader roots) and not top-watering (the spreader roots)?

I am betting that the spreader roots adapt and end up going deeper in the container to find the water. That middle of the container has always been hard to fill with top watering systems and took a lot of work enticing the roots to grow laterally. SIP is turning all of that upside down, and this adaptation of the roots has to be the cause of the massive plants we are seeing come out of this.

 

[CBDMed]

I've not had any luck fertigating through the rez with my organic nutes. They just didn't have the effect that I get putting them in from the top. Bottled nutes, on the other hand, that are chelated do seem effective from below.

!
I must be confused, because that is the opposite of what I would expect.

The soil seems to wick up the water in a gradient, wetter below and less moist as you go higher in the container. I think the roots get used to the relative moisture level at their level and watering from the top disrupts that balance. It just seems to work better letting it come up from below. Maybe later in flower when they drain the reservoir more quickly you can try watering through the top to fill the rez as that would give you extra storage capacity but I have no experience with that so really couldn't say if it would work. For most of the grow, however, stick to the plan, man!

Yes. And disrupt the moisture gradient that the plant has gotten used to.

Ahhh.... "moisture gradient"....
"Look deep, deep into my eyes!! You must not disrupt the moisture gradient!!...."
Hahaha, oy.....
Ok, wet-dry is out, moisture gradient is in....

 

[CBDMed]

Years ago I tried a version of this with a polypropylene wick with not great results. It cycled too much water when the plant was small leading to an overwatered look. Then when the plant grew larger it wasn't able to keep up with what was demanded and the roots grew down the rope and populated the reservoir anyway.

These sips seem to solve that issue by letting the plant decide how much water it wants. I've changed the connecting pot itself to hold hydroton clay balls instead of compressed soil as I didn't like the idea of my organic mix constantly sitting in water when the plants were small and not able to drain the water daily.

The soil roots morph into water roots on their way way to the water reservoir and once they set up shop things really get moving.

Azi, could you please comment on the difference between the hydroton balls, vs. soil?
I could not find hydroton balls, but found some coarse Perlite.
Would the hydroton / Perlite wick less, and not cause an overwater condition before the water roots develop?

 

[Azimuth]

Just to ask, have you ever run an experiment in between top-watering (the spreader roots) and not top-watering (the spreader roots)?

I do top water when I fertigate, roughly once a week, so I do do it. But mostly from below. I do mist the mulch layer daily as well.

SIP is turning all of that upside down, and this adaptation of the roots has to be the cause of the massive plants we are seeing come out of this.

I disagree. I don't think the root adaptation would account for the significant difference. Rather it is my assertion that it is the air gap that provides the turbo boost.

It will be interesting to see if you show as much improvement as most of the rest of us. I will suggest that in your past life with the wet/dry cycle you pretty much maxed out the root mass. So, if it is better root development with this approach, you shouldn't see much gain at all since you were already maxed out.

On the other hand, if it is the addition of constant air to the lower roots, that should improve things for you. I still don't think it will be as dramatic for you as the rest of us because most of us suck at watering which leaves a lot more room for improvement.

 

[CBDMed]

I've found with the cave version it takes a lot longer for the roots to engage the water reservoir, but I also don't use soil in the connector cup.

Ahhh.... and that maybe explains why it takes your water roots longer to grow....
Maybe with soil in the cup the transition is quicker, because the roots don't need to "jump" to the water?

 

[Emilya Green]

Rather it is my assertion that it is the air gap that provides the turbo boost.

That very well could be. I always wanted to do an experiment with an airstone burried at the bottom of a container, but never did. I have oxygenated my water before, and that definitely provided a benefit. This access to air at the bottom of the rootball, plus having water adapted roots in the wet for constant access to nutrient rich water... yeah, I am expecting bigger plants.

 

[ReservoirDog]

Pretty sure that's the wrong hemisphere.

I have just ordered my 19 piece hole saw kit by floating up the big river on this side of the world... they had it for $21.99. Six inch holes! I may go crazy with the power.

Regarding that... I am actually thinking of buying in the near future, enough materials to make 3 tubs at first and actually I will eventually need 9 to convert the entire operation over to SIP. Yes, I appear to be completely insane, because this means actually purchasing 18 tubs and about 4 miles of drainage pipe. Egads.

Been there, done that, easy peasy you'll do great. I cleaned out Lowes on 17 gal on sale day and Canadian Tire of 27's. same guff, last year. If you literally walked up to my house I would give you a full setup, I am a tote hoarder and need intervention. (please) This grow style is ideal for a passive, gravity-feed large res with control bucket for levelling. Using a 3 position float valve in the control bucket gives you three level choices but it goes system wide. The limit appears to be 6 units on gravity systems, I think that's pretty well established grav system intel. I believe a multi-setup like this would reduce passive airflow however it is successfully run as LOS, organic, peat and cocoa. I've started with weed on peat/perlite but grew 3/4 of vegetables with organic time release. This system is the most water and nutrient conserving system I can imagine - this was a major attractant for me. I think a 25% reduction in your fertigaation if one were going that way, compared to a hand watered or high-fertigation-event coco-grow.

PS I may have gotten out from under the mag def. that was looking pretty scary (to me). Essentially, the plants are powering out of it like a pilot in an 'unscheduled' dive who mashes the throttle to actually increase airspeed and flow more air around his control surfaces, making them capable of more lift. The plant has the right nutes now (top of my head 8 days since changed formula) and is appearing to now grow completely healthy control surfaces at an astonishing rate in order to fight back the damage from the deficiency. It's a sheer display of power, esp. overnight last night when at lights out it looked to me that if the changes didn't take there was every chance of losing the plants due to speed of onset. So be aware: DWC-type speed of onset for nute deficiencies is definitely a thing. Nonetheless, after seeing the plants flex like that overnight, this is definitely still my kink.

 

[ReservoirDog]

I definitely need dollies under these tubs for the move between grow rooms

I also have to note that I am finding it remarkable that after all of this time stressing proper watering in a closed container and becoming somewhat famous for that work, that one of the first followers and advocates of my watering method is now able to teach me a new trick or two.

Human beings rock. Nice symbiosis you two.

I’m going with the 88lb/40kilo wheels, despite the height penalty (I’m toying with leaving Dollie’s in place) and 1/2 inch plywood. My containers , 27gal, weigh over 175lbs and feel like 200+. I’m not joking

I’m training plants with carhooks and height a priority. Also training plants away from each other and with attach indiv fixed scrog at transition.

 

[CBDMed]

They recommend peat and fertigation for the first run. Check. They recommend never watering from the top but for transplant day. Check. They also recommend no air pumps. Mmmm, sorta check.

Ahhh, ok!
Great to know. Thank you, Dog!
That answered my questions.

 

[Azimuth]

Azi, could you please comment on the difference between the hydroton balls, vs. soil?
I could not find hydroton balls, but found some coarse Perlite.
Would the hydroton / Perlite wick less, and not cause an overwater condition before the water roots develop?

Certainly. When I began my experiments Starting here I was concerned about having my organic grow mix constantly submerged as is the standard approach with these things. It seems to work fine with peat based mixes but peat is also formed under water in peat bogs over hundreds of years.

My mix is about 2/3rds organic material with most of that being leaf mold and worm castings, neither of which spend any time underwater in their formation. I've also made lots of Jadam water based ferments with various things and I know the absolute stink that can come with submerging plant material in water for any meaningful length of time. Since mine is an indoor grow I absolutely could not have that issue and so thought about ways I could accomplish the wicking properties by other means.

I chose hydroton clay balls as that's what I had on hand from my aquaponics build and was familiar with their wicking properties which is somewhat less than submerged peat or coco which I felt was an advantage in my small 1L pots. I have experienced the perched water table in them and the shorter the container the bigger the problem with it.

Since I ran my early experiments with clear 1L containers, I could see how the soil, roots and water interfaced with each other. What I found with these clay balls in the reservoir was that the soil roots morphed into water roots as they approached the reservoir, splitting and fishboning all over the place which I assumed indicated they were quite happy. And it doesn't take very long before those water roots fully populate that hydroton layer. I think these water roots are an advantage sitting in a pool of water and allow easier access to that water by the plant.

Interestingly, I've seen the pictures from the commercial system Buds is using as well as the pictures of the root ball of his recently harvested plant and in both cases the roots appear to stop just at the reservoir level, not populating the reservoir at all but rather relying on the wicking capabilities entirely.

Whether one approach is better than the other should be the subject of a side-by-side test to see, so at the moment it is just personal preference for me. Intellectually it seems to make more sense to me that the water roots are an advantage but I have no comparative basis for that conclusion. My setup works well for me and I still don't want to unnecessarily submerge my mix in constant water if it's not needed.

I think any inert media like perlite, pumice, sand, maybe even small rivet rock, etc. would likely work similarly to my hydroton.

 

[Azimuth]

I definitely need dollies under these tubs for the move between grow rooms,

In my experience, having a pair of wheels that swivel and a pair that do not makes it much easier to move them around as they track better. If all of them swivel the thing can move in any direction which sounds like it would be an advantage but I find it a bit of a pain.