Colombian Andes Greenhouse SIP CBD Auto Grow

[CBDMed]

Hey CBD!

Hey Gringuito,

Are you set on cooking? (sterilization) Because once you do that, microbes are destroyed. I'm not familiar with cooking... have never done it, and I'm getting very good results w/ my custom supersoil.

Well, I was calling it "fermentation", but everyone else here corrected me, because I guess the accepted terminology for fermenting supersoil it is "cooking" (even though it really doesn' get that hot...).

I can understand wanting to sterilize compost or worm castings, if one suspects they may contain pathogenic bacteria, fungi, nasty mesofauna (e.g. bad nematodes, etc.), or destructive larvae (e.g. fungus gnat larvae). Once you do that; however, then you can mix in everything else that's going to be in your supersoil, including something like GeoFlora, Mikrobs, Recharge, etc. You could also drench the soil with aerated compost tea, to introduce beneficial microbes.

Thanks!
I already have Recharge (and some Mikrobs on the way), so I will probably use those.
(I wondered why we want to have old soil for bacteria when we can just add Recharge or Mikrobs.)

GeoFlora is a top dressing. I took a quick look at it, HERE.

If you were to sterilize the soil after adding GeoFlora, you'd be killing the beneficial microbes that are in GeoFlora.

@Wastei mentioned Bacillus amyloliquefaciens as the microbe of choice for hydro, and that it's found in two products, SouthernAG GFF and Hydroguard. I then commented...


So now we can add GeoFlora to the club...

GeoFlora is an NPK granular top dressing. Veg is 5-3-4, bloom is 3-5-5. It contains nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and sulfur. It also contains kelp which has a lot of trace minerals and amino acids. There's also some yucca in it, as well as molasses and humic acids. GeoFlora is like a macro- and micro-nutrient fertilizer with Mikrobs or Recharge added to it (except GeoFlora doesn't contain mycorrhizal fungi or trichoderma – just bacteria).

Sounds good!

is kind of like Mikrobs or Recharge with macronutrients and Ca, Mg, and S added.

I'm guessing Bacillus amyloliquefaciens would be a good one for your SIP reservoir, and perhaps some of the others. @Wastei recommends against Bacillus subtilis in a reservoir.

I personally wouldn't use GeoFlora – I prefer to source NPK, Ca, Mg, S individually so I can add however much I want. Ditto for the microbes and kelp. But if you are trying to make the process a bit quicker/easier, GeoFlora looks like a pretty good product.

Well, full disclosure.
If we ever get settled on land, my long term goal is to grow in ground with kitchen waste, and Azi's Jadam and KNF formulas.
In the short run I am indoors under LEDs (and probably want to run that way, because otherwise the house is too cold).
We had some civil disturbances, and they were also talking about maybe losing supply lines (with "Covid"), and I thought, "I want to be sure to have plenty of nutes for me plants! Don't want to run out!!" =:-o
So I ordered two more sets of Supersoil components, and then I also splurged on a mess of GeoFlora Bloom (to compare it to Supersoil).
So, I can probably power a nice grow with the GeoFlora I already have, assuming I can find someone reliable to water and feed them on time. (You'd think it would be easy, but it ain't! Especially here!)

GeoFlora veg analysis:

GeoFlora bloom analysis:

source: CDFA Fertilizer Product Database

I agree with you that it is probably more cost-effective to source components and mix your own (and that has to play a role in almost anything).
On the other hand, Emilya uses GF, and she seems happy with it.
Since there is no mixing with GeoFlora, I thought I should see how GeoFlora stacks up against Supersoil cost-wise.
If there is no mixing, and the costs are similar, and the flavor is good, then it might be a good deal.
Emilya said she believes it is economical, cost wise.
(I don't know, but I could start using it right now...)

 

[cbdhemp808]

Well, I was calling it "fermentation", but everyone else here corrected me, because I guess the accepted terminology for fermenting supersoil it is "cooking" (even though it really doesn' get that hot...).

Hmm. Well, compost definitely needs to be well decomposed first before using it in a soil. As for microbes in compost, worm castings, or added microbes – I don't see a huge benefit to letting them "do their thing" for a period of time before planting. After all, we are planting tiny seedlings or small clones, so there's plenty of time for the microbes to develop during the life of the plant. And, tiny seedlings don't need "hot" soil in the start.

 

[CBDMed]

If you're going the Geoflora route, you can skip all of the Supersoil amendments and the cooking time altogether and just use some sort of simple, base mix as your grow medium.

Yeah, that is what I was thinking.
Thanks.

Emilya did a review of Geoflora Here as part of her staff duties and she uses it as the foundation for her grows which, if you follow them, are somewhat better than average.

Yeah, Em the Gem. She does good.

With that stuff, they say you can even grow with it in coco which has nothing to offer plants in the way of nutrients.

Are there any tricks to coco and GF?
(I guess I prolly need to finish reading the GF thread, huh??)

You put the first addition in the soil when you mix it up, let it sit for two weeks to let the microbes get activated and do their thing and then add the prescribed amount as a top dress every two weeks and water in from the top (even in SIPs).

Ahh, ok. You mix it and let it "cook" for two weeks?? That sounds good.
Only, once you mix and wet it, do you need to use it 2 weeks later?
Or, if you mix it and then you have to travel, and it sits and dries out, can you then later add water with Recharge or Mikrobs, and go?
(Or does it not work like that?)

An organic grow doesn't get much easier than that, and you don't need any of the other additives that one would generally add to an organic grow.

Yeah.
And it would hypothetically drop my "cooking" time from 4-12 weeks (depending on who is counting) down to 2 weeks.

The Geoflora even gets around the small pot issue since every time you add the topdress you are adding all of the inputs needed along with the microbes needed to break them down.

"Umm, what is the 'small pot' issue?"

Do that every two weeks, and it's water only from there. They say it doesn't even matter if you use chlorinated water since there are enough microbes with each dose to overcome that issue. There are two different products, one for veg and the other for flower.

Thanks!
My only concern is whether I can truly find someone reliable to water and feed (or not).
(I guess just pray and listen...)

 

[CBDMed]

Hmm. Well, compost definitely needs to be well decomposed first before using it in a soil.

Yeah.

As for microbes in compost, worm castings, or added microbes – I don't see a huge benefit to letting them "do their thing" for a period of time before planting.

Yeah, all I know is that the original Subcool Supersoil recipe (which I used with great success and happiness in the States) calls for mixing raw components (like you do), and then letting them "cook" (I say ferment) for 4 weeks.
Various other sources have unilaterally raised the time limit from 4 weeks, to 6, to 8, and even to 12 weeks!
I know that various meals (blood, alfalfa, etc.) decompose, and steal oxygen, and that adds heat--and that you have to let it "cook" until it is no longer hot (i.e., no longer stealing oxygen). But exactly how long that takes, etc., I dunno. I think it also depends on the ambient temperature, etc.

After all, we are planting tiny seedlings or small clones, so there's plenty of time for the microbes to develop during the life of the plant. And, tiny seedlings don't need "hot" soil in the start.

Yeah.

I need to look up and see how recommend preloading the soil, such that the girls do not get fed before they show their first true leaves.

 

[CBDMed]

Top dressing with GF does require some top-watering to activate it, even in a SIP.

Thanks, Shed!
But how do you pre-apply it to the soil so that the young baby girl does not get fed before her first true leaves appear?

(I need to read....

 

[InTheShed]

It doesn't burn plants so ideally you mix it into moist soil 2 weeks before you need it for seedlings or transplants. On transplant day you add the same amount to the top and water it in. And you continue to top dress and water every two weeks (or so) after that.

In a SIP you would be watering it in on the day you top dress, but not so much water you would reach the res. Just to moisten the top 3" I would guess. I think Emilya does it that way so I'd check out her latest grow.

 

[Azimuth]

Are there any tricks to coco and GF?

Yes. Feeding everything at the correct pH is important , I think extra cal-mag, never let it dry out, stuff like that. A coco grower would have to weigh in.

Only, once you mix and wet it, do you need to use it 2 weeks later?
Or, if you mix it and then you have to travel, and it sits and dries out, can you then later add water with Recharge or Mikrobs, and go?
(Or does it not work like that?)

Those are questions for the Geoflora thread.

"Umm, what is the 'small pot' issue?"

For organic grows, pots smaller than say 10 gallons are unable to be loaded with enough amendments to power a water-only grow all the way through harvest.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yeah, all I know is that the original Subcool Supersoil recipe (which I used with great success and happiness in the States) calls for mixing raw components (like you do), and then letting them "cook" (I say ferment) for 4 weeks.
Various other sources have unilaterally raised the time limit from 4 weeks, to 6, to 8, and even to 12 weeks!
I know that various meals (blood, alfalfa, etc.) decompose, and steal oxygen, and that adds heat--and that you have to let it "cook" until it is no longer hot (i.e., no longer stealing oxygen). But exactly how long that takes, etc., I dunno. I think it also depends on the ambient temperature, etc.

The only thing I'm adding like that is bat guano, 7-3-1.

"Bat and bird guano are allowed as soil amendments “with restrictions” imposed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. They must be decomposed and dried according to the USDA Organic Regulations requirements for raw manure."

 

[CBDMed]

It doesn't burn plants so ideally you mix it into moist soil 2 weeks before you need it for seedlings or transplants. On transplant day you add the same amount to the top and water it in. And you continue to top dress and water every two weeks (or so) after that.

In a SIP you would be watering it in on the day you top dress, but not so much water you would reach the res. Just to moisten the top 3" I would guess. I think Emilya does it that way so I'd check out her latest grow.

Ahh, ok. Thanks, Shed!

 

[CBDMed]

Yes. Feeding everything at the correct pH is important , I think extra cal-mag, never let it dry out, stuff like that. A coco grower would have to weigh in.

Hmmm....
You know, after all of that trouble with the Bendita Sea "Salted Soil Supreme", I think I should just stick with that Roots Organic premium soil for a base, and then hit it with the GeoFlora I already have. (And then if I want, later I can recondition it with one of CBD's formulas.)

Those are questions for the Geoflora thread.
For organic grows, pots smaller than say 10 gallons are unable to be loaded with enough amendments to power a water-only grow all the way through harvest.

Ahh, ok.
I can do that with Subcool's. In fact that was another question I had.
With Subcool's in 5G and 7G cloth pots, I would fill the bottom 1/3 - 2/5ths of the pot with Supersoil, and then fill the bucket to the top with regular potting soil (usually mixed with lots of worm castings).
Only 1/3 - 2/5ths full of supersoil like that, it powered a whole grow for topped 5' beauties.

I now realize that the last base soil I had was salted (no idea how).
Had that been good base soil (and hence, good supersoil), would I really have needed to fill the whole SIP with supersoil, just for an auto?

I mean, if I can use 1/3 - 2/5 supersoil for 5' full bush indicas, how much should I really need for an auto??

 

[InTheShed]

I recall that Sohum soil (a pretty popular brand here) recommends 2/3 of theirs on the bottom and 1/3 regular soil on top (unsalted!).

 

[CBDMed]

The only thing I'm adding like that is bat guano, 7-3-1.

"Bat and bird guano are allowed as soil amendments “with restrictions” imposed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. They must be decomposed and dried according to the USDA Organic Regulations requirements for raw manure."

Yeah, ok.

I posted a big question on the GeoFlora thread. I don't know if you want to go there.

I have wayyyy too many things going on right now. I think the easiest thing at the moment would just be to use that Roots Organic (I know you don't like it), and use it with the GeoFlora I already have. (I bought it just exactly in case of a situation like this one.)
So I should use it, and then when I go to recondition it, then I can spend to ship a bunch of Down To Earth meals and such.
I had those meals in the US. They are great to have! I used to make Subcool's and also that Clackamas Coot's mix. They were great! But shipping is a killer here.

I got a bunch of GeoFlora just exactly in case I got strung out--so I should use it. And then we can recondition it good with DTE later.
Anyway, now I think I should wait to see if we are going to make this trip before I pop beans, because I'm not real sure I will be able to find anyone reliable to feed or water...

 

[CBDMed]

I recall that Sohum soil (a pretty popular brand here) recommends 2/3 of theirs on the bottom and 1/3 regular soil on top (unsalted!).

Hahahahahaha!!
R.O.F.L.!

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yeah, ok.

I posted a big question on the GeoFlora thread. I don't know if you want to go there.

I have wayyyy too many things going on right now.

Ditto here... oh man, way too many things. I def need to cut back on the forum... love it but it's a time gobbler.

I think the easiest thing at the moment would just be to use that Roots Organic (I know you don't like it), and use it with the GeoFlora I already have. (I bought it just exactly in case of a situation like this one.)
So I should use it, and then when I go to recondition it, then I can spend to ship a bunch of Down To Earth meals and such.
I had those meals in the US. They are great to have! I used to make Subcool's and also that Clackamas Coot's mix. They were great! But shipping is a killer here.

Yeah, Roots and GeoFlora seems like a good path. It's supposed to be a top dressing. Any disadvantage to just including it in the soil? I guess in addition to top dressing later on?

I got a bunch of GeoFlora just exactly in case I got strung out--so I should use it. And then we can recondition it good with DTE later.
Anyway, now I think I should wait to see if we are going to make this trip before I pop beans, because I'm not real sure I will be able to find anyone reliable to feed or water...

When will you know if you are making the trip? Will you be growing in a greenhouse?

 

[Azimuth]

Yeah, Roots and GeoFlora seems like a good path. It's supposed to be a top dressing. Any disadvantage to just including it in the soil? I guess in addition to top dressing later on?

Why not just follow the recomended usage? Why complicate it with an off label use that may cause problems you'll then have to correct for?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Why not just follow the recomended usage? Why complicate it with an off label use that may cause problems you'll then have to correct for?

I'm somewhat confused by Geoflora. It seems to me it's intended to supplement (via top dressing) a soil that is already fertilized.

[ source: How To Use Geoflora — Geoflora Nutrients ]​

​

So, if Geoflora is used with Roots Organics soil, that soil is far from a well-fertilized soil (or supersoil). I'm guessing the NPK amounts are very low. Given that Roots Organics Lush is 1.00 - 0.50 - 0.50, I'm guessing the Original is even less than that.

Here's from Aurora Innovations, makers of Roots Organics Original potting soil, in response to @el gruinguito inquiring about the Colombian version of the product:

"This soil is the same soil we make in Eugene Oregon and it is imported. It is the exact same recipe. We do not out NPK values on our soil as we keep it proprietary."​

So... I'm not seeing Geoflora (top dressing) as a replacement, really, for either mixed-in dry ferts, or liquid ferts. Again, it seems most appropriate as a top dressing for an already fertilized soil. (It's granular and not water-soluble.)

OK, so here's the punchline...

"GEOFLORA APPLICATION: Top dress 8 oz per ten gallons of growing media once every two weeks with the appropriate formula, and water thoroughly. For amending, apply at the same rate prior to transplant, then top-dress after two weeks." [ feeding chart PDF ]​

So, they are also saying it can be used as an amendment... added to the soil prior to planting. So for example, that would be 1/2 cup of Geoflora dry granular product in 5 gal. of soil. For comparison, my supersoil contains a lot more dry, powdered ferts that this. The Geoflora ratio is 0.5c/5 gal. = 0.1. My ratio is about 0.5c/1.5 gal. = 0.33, or over 3 times as much. (Even more, actually, because powder is more dense than granules.)

Another factor: Geoflora is not powdered, it's granular. I suppose this is meant to make it more appropriate as a slow-release top dressing. But this works against it being used as an amendment. Sure, it will more-or-less work, but it isn't as immediately available to the roots compared to a powder.

Overall conclusion: How you use Geoflora depends on your grow medium and amount of ferts mixed into your grow medium.

 

[Azimuth]

What part of "Use Geoflora nutrients as a stand alone system..." are you not getting? As I said previously, they say it can power a grow in coco which has nothing in the way of nutrients in it.

Use your other soil with it if you want, but that's not even necessary.

 

[CBDMed]

Ditto here... oh man, way too many things. I def need to cut back on the forum... love it but it's a time gobbler.

Yeah! That's how I feel! Ha ha.

Yeah, Roots and GeoFlora seems like a good path. It's supposed to be a top dressing. Any disadvantage to just including it in the soil? I guess in addition to top dressing later on?

I thought that was a great question. I asked something similar on the Geoflora thread. Emilyah's answer is that SuperSoil components are not immediately bio available, so you CAN do that with super soil. But you CANNOT do that with Geo flora, because many of the components are immediately bioavailable, so you can burn the plant.

It sounds good, but I hope to ask some respectful questions about that, because if that's true, then why are people putting layers and spikes of fertilizer in some routines? Not sure I understand.

When will you know if you are making the trip?

Ha ha, not sure! I think maybe in about a month, but maybe two months, and maybe it might not even happen.
So, I'm talking myself into growing! Ha ha.

Will you be growing in a greenhouse?

Oy.... yeah, right?
(I should write the moderators and ask them to change the thread title?)
I didn't realize it was going to be so cold here, so I'm running the lights indoors just for house heat. And I've got a zillion auto seeds, so I think just to use those for now, while we are still indoors. Because in azimuths sips they really put out a crop!
(Sorry for any typing errors, I'm using voice dictation this morning on a different device.)

 

[CBDMed]

Why not just follow the recomended usage?

I plan to.

Why complicate it with an off label use that may cause problems you'll then have to correct for?

I think he's trying to help.
Amelia is clearly an expert, but I think people like yourself and CBD also like to experiment with new things.
Some people like a prepared formula made by an expert, and they just have to walk it out – and other people want to learn granularly so to speak.
He's clearly trying to help me. (If it wasn't for him, I'd still be fighting with salty soil!)
so as was mentioned on the Geo flora thread, I think discussions a good thing. And I appreciate CBDs questions and input.

 

[CBDMed]

I'm somewhat confused by Geoflora. It seems to me it's intended to supplement (via top dressing) a soil that is already fertilized.

[ source: How To Use Geoflora — Geoflora Nutrients ]​

​

So, if Geoflora is used with Roots Organics soil, that soil is far from a well-fertilized soil (or supersoil). I'm guessing the NPK amounts are very low. Given that Roots Organics Lush is 1.00 - 0.50 - 0.50, I'm guessing the Original is even less than that.

I understand the concern.
I think everyone is saying the same things but from different angles.
I think the roots organic soil is pre-loaded with lots of premium meals and things. But I don't think it's enough to power-hungry cannabis all the way through flour. I think it's only got enough food to power CBD autos maybe until they start flowering.
So I might do some control group experiments where I have some autos that feeds straight from the soil, and others where I augment a little nitrogen (dog water) to help them get going, and we will see what happens.

Here's from Aurora Innovations, makers of Roots Organics Original potting soil, in response to @el gruinguito inquiring about the Colombian version of the product:

"This soil is the same soil we make in Eugene Oregon and it is imported. It is the exact same recipe. We do not out NPK values on our soil as we keep it proprietary."​

So... I'm not seeing Geoflora (top dressing) as a replacement, really, for either mixed-in dry ferts, or liquid ferts. Again, it seems most appropriate as a top dressing for an already fertilized soil. (It's granular and not water-soluble.)

yeah, I understand the confusion, because I had it also. I think particularly when you are coming things from a granular, do it yourself, "learn everything you can" mode, it's possible to misunderstand their label (because me had the exact same question, mon).

OK, so here's the punchline...

"GEOFLORA APPLICATION: Top dress 8 oz per ten gallons of growing media once every two weeks with the appropriate formula, and water thoroughly. For amending, apply at the same rate prior to transplant, then top-dress after two weeks." [ feeding chart PDF ]​

So, they are also saying it can be used as an amendment... added to the soil prior to planting.

Great question. I had the same question.
I think what they are saying is that if I chose to use the Confía bonus Colombian fertilizer that doesn't come with any food in it, that I should scratch the first dose into the soil in may be the top 3 inches or some thing (keeping it away from where I will put the seed directly in the soil), and then water it in two days ahead, everything has time to dissolve, and their microbes have time to activate.

But I was reading the whole Geo flora thread, and they were saying that if you already have nutrients in the soil, enough the power of the vegetative state, you don't need to add anything. But that you can add things later, when you start to go into bloom. (makes sense.)

So for example, that would be 1/2 cup of Geoflora dry granular product in 5 gal. of soil. For comparison, my supersoil contains a lot more dry, powdered ferts that this. The Geoflora ratio is 0.5c/5 gal. = 0.1. My ratio is about 0.5c/1.5 gal. = 0.33, or over 3 times as much. (Even more, actually, because powder is more dense than granules.)

Another factor: Geoflora is not powdered, it's granular. I suppose this is meant to make it more appropriate as a slow-release top dressing. But this works against it being used as an amendment. Sure, it will more-or-less work, but it isn't as immediately available to the roots compared to a powder.

Overall conclusion: How you use Geoflora depends on your grow medium and amount of ferts mixed into your grow medium.

Yeah, I agree completely. I think everyone is trying to help me, and everyone is saying mostly the same things, just from different angles. And I think the manufacturers label is pretty clear, but of course there are 1000 ways to go.
I'm thinking to try it, and see how it goes. Emilya says she likes to heavy fertilize heavy, and often, and soon or something like that, so she's a fan of pushing stuff, and then reusing soil.
(she wins prices and stuff, so people listen to her.)

I almost included you on the other thread brother, but I didn't. I think the best thing would be if I tag you on the other thread. (Just a word of caution, there are a few people on the other thread who can provoke ARGUMENT, so I try to word things extra careful. And deflate arguments before they begin.)