SIP - Pity Do Dah, SIP - Pity A

[CBDMed]

Certainly. When I began my experiments Starting here I was concerned about having my organic grow mix constantly submerged as is the standard approach with these things. It seems to work fine with peat based mixes but peat is also formed under water in peat bogs over hundreds of years.

My mix is about 2/3rds organic material with most of that being leaf mold and worm castings, neither of which spend any time underwater in their formation. I've also made lots of Jadam water based ferments with various things and I know the absolute stink that can come with submerging plant material in water for any meaningful length of time. Since mine is an indoor grow I absolutely could not have that issue and so thought about ways I could accomplish the wicking properties by other means.

I chose hydroton clay balls as that's what I had on hand from my aquaponics build and was familiar with their wicking properties which is somewhat less than submerged peat or coco which I felt was an advantage in my small 1L pots. I have experienced the perched water table in them and the shorter the container the bigger the problem with it.

Since I ran my early experiments with clear 1L containers, I could see how the soil, roots and water interfaced with each other. What I found with these clay balls in the reservoir was that the soil roots morphed into water roots as they approached the reservoir, splitting and fishboning all over the place which I assumed indicated they were quite happy. And it doesn't take very long before those water roots fully populate that hydroton layer. I think these water roots are an advantage sitting in a pool of water and allow easier access to that water by the plant.

Interestingly, I've seen the pictures from the commercial system Buds is using as well as the pictures of the root ball of his recently harvested plant and in both cases the roots appear to stop just at the reservoir level, not populating the reservoir at all but rather relying on the wicking capabilities entirely.

Whether one approach is better than the other should be the subject of a side-by-side test to see, so at the moment it is just personal preference for me. Intellectually it seems to make more sense to me that the water roots are an advantage but I have no comparative basis for that conclusion. My setup works well for me and I still don't want to unnecessarily submerge my mix in constant water if it's not needed.

I think any inert media like perlite, pumice, sand, maybe even small rivet rock, etc. would likely work similarly to my hydroton.

Ok, great to know, thanks!
My commercial SIP units arrived (like Buds has), but we are hoping to move soon (weeks), so I am forcing myself to hold off on planting until we get resituated, and get the new greenhouse set up, etc. (Sitting on hands.... ow!!!)
Are there any mods that you would recommend to the commercial SIP units like Buds has? Or not at this time?

Also, I hope I will not run out of supersoil, but if I run out of supersoil, and you cannot water from the top with your homemade nutes, then would it be possible to pre-mix GeoFlora into the grow soil? (Or not really?)

 

[Azimuth]

Ahhh.... and that maybe explains why it takes your water roots longer to grow....
Maybe with soil in the cup the transition is quicker, because the roots don't need to "jump" to the water?

I don't think that was it. In both cases the hydroton sat in the reservoir and provided a link from the soil to the water. It may have more to do with outside vs inside roots. The roots that ran down the outside edges of the container in my "gravel bed" setup went directly into the water. The ones that came down the middle in my other "cave" setup, found the hydroton but took much longer to get down into the water.

That seems to be the case in my larger 2 Gal buckets as well which is why the three I built today are of the other style so I can compare the results of my next plant that will be started this week.

 

[Azimuth]

Are there any mods that you would recommend to the commercial SIP units like Buds has? Or not at this time?

Personally, if I were you I would run them as recommended for the first few runs to get a baseline. That way you'll know if any mods you make were worthwhile.

Also, I hope I will not run out of supersoil, but if I run out of supersoil, and you cannot water from the top with your homemade nutes, then would it be possible to pre-mix GeoFlora into the grow soil? (Or not really?)

Emilya is using Geoflora for her grow now. That one I think is just a top dress every 14 days.

 

[CBDMed]

Personally, if I were you I would run them as recommended for the first few runs to get a baseline. That way you'll know if any mods you make were worthwhile.

Ok, thanks!

Emilya is using Geoflora for her grow now. That one I think is just a top dress every 14 days.

Right. I was just thinking about what RD said about not interrupting the moisture gradient (and about disruption of the moisture gradient as being counter-productive).
Is there a way to feed nutes without messing up the moisture gradient?

 

[Azimuth]

Is there a way to feed nutes without messing up the moisture gradient?

Well, I mess it up about once a week. I also topdress and keep the mulch layer misted so the microbes can do their thing and would imagine that might work with the GeoFlora. Em is really the better one to ask on that however.

 

[Emilya Green]

As long as I see moisture content at the surface like I am seeing now, I am confident that the GeoFlora layer is moist enough to be working. I did spread it out really well and slowly watered the surface to get it in there when I applied it, but unless and until I see nutritional problems, I only plan to top water again on the next feeding day, when I want to give the new dry GeoFlora granules a good wetting.

 

[CBDMed]

As long as I see moisture content at the surface like I am seeing now, I am confident that the GeoFlora layer is moist enough to be working. I did spread it out really well and slowly watered the surface to get it in there when I applied it, but unless and until I see nutritional problems, I only plan to top water again on the next feeding day, when I want to give the new dry GeoFlora granules a good wetting.

Ok, perfect!
Thank you, Em!

 

[ReservoirDog]

baby SIPs. Seedling SIPs using porous nursery bags. Rings holding gravel in place are just water bottle sections. I keep the water fresh by keeping water low so gets used up but it really helps RH.

I’m working on the same idea at a larger scale in a kiddy pool for my Moms. They’ll grow too fast but my mom space is ladder access and I have severely damaged inner ears that make me fall a few times a week, so on bad days I need to be able to not have to go up there. It’ll be covered with panda poly to return condensate to pool. I’m also using an old cell phone and app “Alfred” as a mommy-monitor camera up there. Project currently under construction. I’ll get close this week.

My seedling setup. Please don’t blame the SIPs for the poor condition of the seedlings, These are special Sativas from a member and I had a fall carrying them.

This way they’re SIzp trained from day one, and you get dendritic root formation from day one. Also you can just drop the bags into the SIP soil. I add my live cultured endomycorhizal a second time when I drop them in the SIP. I did tomatoes and cucumbers like this too, just not so many shizz inputs. The bags are waaaay cheaper than pots, take almost nil storage space. I really like that you can make them as tall or short as you like. They’re on the Nile too. 20$ MAX. Size pref… gosh, I’d have to measure. If interested just tag me. I really hope all these posts are OK with OP.

 

[Bill284]

Just a couple of group shots.

Temps & RH haven't been too bad.

Well, got to finish working on my other plants. Branches to tie up & pics to take for my other journal. Probably wont post them till tomorrow. Got to start trimming plant #5 that's doing it's dark time now. Checked Trichs on all my plants this morning. I think 2 more will be ready to harvest by next week. Busy, Busy, Busy.

Girls in those last pics were a little light in color, mis that the LED?
Everything else looks great.
Try and enjoy the rest of your weekend my friend.
Take care.




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Buds Buddy]

Wow, hey Buds!! Thanks for the invite!! This is exciting!!

Thanks for joining in. I'm really enjoying this journal so far. Lots of good help & advice.

 

[Buds Buddy]

baby SIPs. Seedling SIPs using porous nursery bags. Rings holding gravel in place are just water bottle sections. I keep the water fresh by keeping water low so gets used up but it really helps RH.

I’m working on the same idea at a larger scale in a kiddy pool for my Moms. They’ll grow too fast but my mom space is ladder access and I have severely damaged inner ears that make me fall a few times a week, so on bad days I need to be able to not have to go up there. It’ll be covered with panda poly to return condensate to pool. I’m also using an old cell phone and app “Alfred” as a mommy-monitor camera up there. Project currently under construction. I’ll get close this week.

My seedling setup. Please don’t blame the SIPs for the poor condition of the seedlings, These are special Sativas from a member and I had a fall carrying them.

This way they’re SIzp trained from day one, and you get dendritic root formation from day one. Also you can just drop the bags into the SIP soil. I add my live cultured endomycorhizal a second time when I drop them in the SIP. I did tomatoes and cucumbers like this too, just not so many shizz inputs. The bags are waaaay cheaper than pots, take almost nil storage space. I really like that you can make them as tall or short as you like. They’re on the Nile too. 20$ MAX. Size pref… gosh, I’d have to measure. If interested just tag me. I really hope all these posts are OK with OP.

It's fine. I like seeing all these alternative ways to do this. Gives me options for future grows & a journal I can look back on for info if needed.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Girls in those last pics were a little light in color, mis that the LED?
Everything else looks great.
Try and enjoy the rest of your weekend my friend.
Take care.




Stay safe
Bill284

Probably the camera flash. But I will be upping the nutes real soon. Use up what I have mixed first though.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Hahaha!


Hmm... is that double the recommended strength on the Re-charge?
And what do you find that does for you?


Hahaha!

Haha, I thought I was the only one who did that!
Do you just let your "over cup" fall down, and you don't try to snug it? And it does not restrict the plants from breathing at all?

The Re-Charge bag says 5 grams per gallon if you want to Super Charge the grow. Since I'm using Tap Water which I've heard effects microbes kind of negatively, I felt the 5 grams per gal. would be better.

 

[Buds Buddy]

I've not had any luck fertigating through the rez with my organic nutes. They just didn't have the effect that I get putting them in from the top. Bottled nutes, on the other hand, that are chelated do seem effective from below.


The soil seems to wick up the water in a gradient, wetter below and less moist as you go higher in the container. I think the roots get used to the relative moisture level at their level and watering from the top disrupts that balance. It just seems to work better letting it come up from below. Maybe later in flower when they drain the reservoir more quickly you can try watering through the top to fill the rez as that would give you extra storage capacity but I have no experience with that so really couldn't say if it would work. For most of the grow, however, stick to the plan, man!


Yes. And disrupt the moisture gradient that the plant has gotten used to.

I'm seeing this like being able to grow indoors the way plants grow outdoors. Outdoors there's no water in the top soil. The roots have to grow downward to find the water source. Then you get the occasional rain. Same as watering through the top every couple of weeks.

Hmmm, You said you aren't having any luck with fert. through the res with org. nutes. I wonder if I'm having the same issue you did, by doing this. My SoHum & Re-Charge plant is the smallest & it takes 2 - 2.5 days to empty the res. The others all empty it daily.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Hey all, first off, my 4 Cherry On Top are Clones. I grew 6 plants from seeds that were Regs. , but only kept 2 of them for my other journal. I took a bunch of clones from them & put 6 of them into flower in their solo cups. Thought I'd post pics of those clones so you can see what Cherry On Top looks like.

 

[Buds Buddy]

A few Bud shots.

Getting close. Almost done.

 

[LizardMate]

Tracking nicely

 

[Bill284]

A few Bud shots.

Getting close. Almost done.

The solos was that just for fun, show off a little.
Beautiful ladies Amigo, colors are fantastic.
You don't have long left by the looks of things.
Great work.




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Azimuth]

I’m working on the same idea at a larger scale in a kiddy pool for my Moms. They’ll grow too fast but

I have the same type of idea in my veg area, but not mom's. I keep a couple of each strain in a statis mode for sometimes months before selecting one to go into true veg to prep for flower as I only have the space for a single one of those. I keep them in 9 oz of depleted soil, little to no nutes, and low light. They can sit there for quite a while not doing much. Then, when I select one for the on-deck circle to veg for flower, I up-pot it into my normal mix, feed it and up the light. Once it's growing well in true veg I take cuttings to replace in in the statis group. I don't keep moms at all.

I really hope all these posts are OK with OP.

We should really have started a separate thread for all general discussions on SIPs and let Buds keep his journal for comments on his grow, but we're probably too far down this road to break off now.

Hmmm, You said you aren't having any luck with fert. through the res with org. nutes. I wonder if I'm having the same issue you did, by doing this. My SoHum & Re-Charge plant is the smallest & it takes 2 - 2.5 days to empty the res. The others all empty it daily.

It was really disappointing. I was getting heavy yellowing in the leaves and I even gave it my fish fertilizer through the rez, and no improvement. Then I started top dressing and feeding from above and that improved things. I'm still trying to get that part dialed in but I'm having much better success fertigating from the top.

I don't know if the nutes need to be chelated or salt based to be used effectively when taken up by the water roots or what is going on. My Jadam and KNF extractions are all supposed to be highly plant available but they just don't seem to work when fed through the rez.

But ResDog says that the Octopot instructions say to never top watercand only feed through the rez, but they use bottled nutes so there must be something different in how the plants take up the organic ones. Maybe they need the soil microbes to do that. I did mix the rez nutes with my Microbial Solution but even that didn't help.

I guess it's possible that maybe my water roots are the issue and maybe they would work if my rez was built the normal way? Dunno.

 

[Buds Buddy]

The solos was that just for fun, show off a little.
Beautiful ladies Amigo, colors are fantastic.
You don't have long left by the looks of things.
Great work.




Stay safe
Bill284

When I planted the seeds I took a clone from each plant to find out if M or F. Once I knew they were female I just let the clones keep flowering to see how they turned out. Pretty sure there will be over an oz. & it gives me some of the Cherry On Top to smoke; which in turn, stops me from harvesting too soon.... lol. I still have a bunch of Blueberry reg. seeds from 4-5 years ago. I might grow that again on my next grow. You really don't see much of it around anymore.