The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

Azimuth said:
They come disguised as many things. @Carcass is rocking a pair of mop pails. I'm partial to 2 gallon buckets and many people grow in 5 gallon ones. @ReservoirDog and @Emilya Green grow in storage totes. Really, anything that will hold water and that you can drill an overflow hole in will do. Then you just need to figure out the guts and how you want to establish the reservoir/air gap.
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Decisions decisions🤪. Perlite is cool but I don't think I need that many water roots. Its fun to watch tho.
 
I think this is a good place for me to ask the following question. What is it about the SIP system that makes it superior to Swick in your view / views? Both are sub-irrigating with a wick, so what makes SIP preferred?

I am curious to hear more than one view if possible please.

StoneOtter said:
Yep, Hi Gee hi @Carmen Ray . I've gone both routes. Some autos are so small I can't get them topped in time so those I let go natural. Ones I can get 5 or 6 nodes and get my scissors in there will get topped and lst trained. I've had very good topped auto luck.
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Thank you Otter. I have read several enthusiastic arguments in favour of topping and training autos and I see that quite a number of the auto growers I know, do top and train.
 
Carmen Ray said:
I think this is a good place for me to ask the following question. What is it about the SIP system that makes it superior to Swick in your view / views? Both are sub-irrigating with a wick, so what makes SIP preferred?

I am curious to hear more than one view if possible please.


Thank you Otter. I have read several enthusiastic arguments in favour of topping and training autos and I see that quite a number of the auto growers I know, do top and train.
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I haven't tried a SIP yet, but for me swicking was mostly to cater to a cloth pot. So I started there.
 
Carmen Ray said:
I think this is a good place for me to ask the following question. What is it about the SIP system that makes it superior to Swick in your view / views? Both are sub-irrigating with a wick, so what makes SIP preferred?

I am curious to hear more than one view if possible please.


Thank you Otter. I have read several enthusiastic arguments in favour of topping and training autos and I see that quite a number of the auto growers I know, do top and train.
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In a SWICK system there is not an air gap that keeps the roots from going down into the rez, which forces SIP roots to specialize in the moisture gradient situation they find themselves in, while still in the soil. The SWICK seems to be closer to full hydro, allowing for special water specific roots to move into the reservoir water and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those plants rely more on what is in the rez mix rather than the micronutrients available in the soil and that in these grows, the roots up above atrophy a bit as compared to a SIP.
 
@Gee64 Storage totes work very well in spacially limited locations, like the avg grow tent or room, but also outdoors where most people are likely to have a little bit more elbow room. The choices of shapes, sizes and availability of good totes is unparalleled.

In space-usage terms, rectangular shapes are much more efficient than circular ones, allowing the maximum volume of soil and therefore nutrients, in commonly found growing spaces indoors, for the plant's benefit.

Creating a false floor inside the tote can be accomplished in multiple ways, including using the lid and cutting it down. Special tools help here, but you can do what needs doing with multiple hand tool options common to most households. If you are interested in researching the salient details just DM me and I'll put together a bullet-point doc that lists my personal, considered, DIY SIP essentials and best practices, and maybe some pros and cons regarding the different internal methods used - like perlite wicks, small wick, large wick (lol).

In all seriousness, if I can be helpful please feel free to ask (and not to), and good luck with whatever you're getting up to. Honestly, I wrote to thank you for your role as a helpful and interesting member. I appreciate your contributions, long may they run!
 
Emilya Green said:
In a SWICK system there is not an air gap that keeps the roots from going down into the rez, which forces SIP roots to specialize in the moisture gradient situation they find themselves in, while still in the soil. The SWICK seems to be closer to full hydro, allowing for special water specific roots to move into the reservoir water and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those plants rely more on what is in the rez mix rather than the micronutrients available in the soil and that in these grows, the roots up above atrophy a bit as compared to a SIP.
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Interesting. I had two plants on Swick and neither of them grew roots into the res, not even close.

Regarding the air gap. I beg to differ. I thought my set up did have an air gap. Also when I used the perlite, the top third of the perlite is dry, and so isn't that providing an air gap of sorts?
 
ReservoirDog said:
If you are interested in researching the salient details just DM me and I'll put together a bullet-point doc that lists my personal, considered, DIY SIP essentials and best practices, and maybe some pros and cons regarding the different internal methods used - like perlite wicks, small wick, large wick (lol).
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I'd be interested in your thoughts. Maybe a detailed SIP Club post? Having all of the theory of various options in one place would be a great reference.
 
BuzzzD said:
I would consider that since the reservoir and soil mix is only connected by a wick that everything in between would be considered "air gap". If there is no conduit between soil and reservoir how would the roots get there?
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There seems to be quite a difference between an air gap and merely air between particles like perlite or hydroton in terms of plant response to that air. If there is no gap, the roots will use the structure of the particles to populate that section, somewhat reducing the effect of that air.

An air gap will actually air prune the roots causing more root growth further up that root and helping to max out the root saturation of the container.

It is true that the air in the surrounding particles can help aerate the roots that do populate the transition area, but it doesn't seem to be the same as a true air gap.
 
Azimuth said:
There seems to be quite a difference between an air gap and merely air between particles like perlite or hydroton in terms of plant response to that air. If there is no gap, the roots will use the structure of the particles to populate that section, somewhat reducing the effect of that air.

An air gap will actually air prune the roots causing more root growth further up that root and helping to max out the root saturation of the container.

It is true that the air in the surrounding particles can help aerate the roots that do populate the transition area, but it doesn't seem to be the same as a true air gap.
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Azi, I responded a couple of posts up. I grew two plants on swick in the recent past as you know. Neither of them grew roots into the res. There was plenty of air circulating about the pot and swicky pad and no hydroponic action at all. I had roots trying to come through but they were air pruned.
 
Emilya Green said:
In a SWICK system there is not an air gap that keeps the roots from going down into the rez, which forces SIP roots to specialize in the moisture gradient situation they find themselves in, while still in the soil. The SWICK seems to be closer to full hydro, allowing for special water specific roots to move into the reservoir water and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those plants rely more on what is in the rez mix rather than the micronutrients available in the soil and that in these grows, the roots up above atrophy a bit as compared to a SIP.
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This fits with my personal experience and observations.

The air gap is in my opinion the fundamental technology tweak that results in significant performance improvements, specifically biomass. Handily, SIP success of this type appears to track tightly with the speed at which water is being cycled through the system. It's important to remember that natural processes controlled by the plant will change its h2O consumption levels during different phases, but, after allowing for these it remains my assessment that as a SIP grower my primary concern ought to be with this water-use cycle's efficiency and speed, in the hope my effort will subsequently reveal to me the "why" of it all (though naturally, I'd settle for the 'why' of some of it all).

Elsewhere, potential can be found in assuring your soil's granularity is optimal for capillary action. Ideal conditions have been discovered, and measured, providing another opportunity for improvement. For instance, peat breaks down into exceptionally fine granularity quickly, and growers reusing peat should in most cases either take correcting action via amendments or use fresh peat.

Osmotic pressures are also a significant contributor with respect to moving water or fertigation up from the reservoir to the plant. It's not as impactful as capillary action, so I've researched thus far, but its impact is nothing to sneeze at. So, this topic looks as though its another opportunity to gain insight, hone practises and find gains.
 
Carmen Ray said:
I think this is a good place for me to ask the following question. What is it about the SIP system that makes it superior to Swick in your view / views? Both are sub-irrigating with a wick, so what makes SIP preferred?

I am curious to hear more than one view if possible please.


Thank you Otter. I have read several enthusiastic arguments in favour of topping and training autos and I see that quite a number of the auto growers I know, do top and train.
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I'm pretty sure the rule is to get it done before 21 days. That probably means before buds appear so that may be a little flexy. It's been a while, I always went with 21 days strictly.
 
Azimuth said:
I'd be interested in your thoughts. Maybe a detailed SIP Club post? Having all of the theory of various options in one place would be a great reference.
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Maybe we should also have a link-farm at the top of the thread. That ought to be possible by the thread-starter. I know it is at similar forums.
 
The way I understand it, if you have a wick, then you have a connection from top to bottom that the roots can follow. I have seen many examples of plants connected by a cloth wick, where the roots did follow that path down into the rez. Why it does and doesn't send roots into the rez is still a bit of a mystery to me. I know that in my horizontal drainpipe in the bottom model, the roots do go all the way down to the drainpipes, which they don't clog up because of the air gap in the top inch of the pipe. In my false floor models, the only clear path to the water is through the 4" soil packed vertical drain pipe that serves as a wick. I have seen others write about how it seems that the roots would follow that obvious path down into the water, but mysteriously, they can never seem to go more than half way. Maybe its the waterflow going up instead of down... maybe it is the tightly packed soil, but my roots stay right in the top bag, with a little bit of flow through to the soil foot pad that I put under my cloth bags.
 
Emilya Green said:
I have seen others write about how it seems that the roots would follow that obvious path down into the water, but mysteriously, they can never seem to go more than half way. Maybe its the waterflow going up instead of down... maybe it is the tightly packed soil, but my roots stay right in the top bag, with a little bit of flow through to the soil foot pad that I put under my cloth bags.
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This isn't universal and probably needs more work by all of us to understand and determine the governing factors. The roots in my containers go all the way down to the very base of the bucket, but I have seen several other growers' pictures showing exactly what you describe. Why the difference? Maybe nutes used, maybe early root development, maybe how the reservoir is used, maybe the style of reservoir/air gap. Whatever it is, there does seem to be consistent differences in root outcomes.

I'm not convinced that one is better than the other though. The topside growth seems to be pretty good no matter which subterranean structure is used.
 
ReservoirDog said:
@Gee64 Storage totes work very well in spacially limited locations, like the avg grow tent or room, but also outdoors where most people are likely to have a little bit more elbow room. The choices of shapes, sizes and availability of good totes is unparalleled.

In space-usage terms, rectangular shapes are much more efficient than circular ones, allowing the maximum volume of soil and therefore nutrients, in commonly found growing spaces indoors, for the plant's benefit.

Creating a false floor inside the tote can be accomplished in multiple ways, including using the lid and cutting it down. Special tools help here, but you can do what needs doing with multiple hand tool options common to most households. If you are interested in researching the salient details just DM me and I'll put together a bullet-point doc that lists my personal, considered, DIY SIP essentials and best practices, and maybe some pros and cons regarding the different internal methods used - like perlite wicks, small wick, large wick (lol).

In all seriousness, if I can be helpful please feel free to ask (and not to), and good luck with whatever you're getting up to. Honestly, I wrote to thank you for your role as a helpful and interesting member. I appreciate your contributions, long may they run!
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Thanks ResDog👊 Yeah man I will definitely hit you up. I just want to see the perlite run thru.

This all started for me when someone said something about a stall time and I thought WTF? Just sprout a seed or drop a clone into bottom watering and the roots will figure themselves out, but their shouldn't be a stall time, simply you should just start as a sip/swick seed or clone.

Room went quiet except for Azi. He jumped and gave me direction while I got my seed going.

So I popped a seed in a swick, got it into a 10gal pot asap, and cloned it just to drop the clones into a swick to show that there is no downtime root conversion delay if you avoid it.

I didn't plan on bottom watering changing my world lol, I was just hoping to help people avoid that 2 week delay. Didn't see that one coming lol.

I must see wicking thru before I go on to SIP'ing but I am definitely going to try it next.

If you want to demo some stuff in here for us on it, the floor is all yours. Lets talk about it with everyone. Got pics to get my brain pointed into what I want/need?
 
I got some roots in my rez of the EarthBox. Had a pic issue but you can see them. Not a lot. I got the poic at low tide through the seep hole and couldn't get the scope all the way in. Would have been nice to get right in there!
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Tank Roots

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Tank roots
 
I wanted to see the roots too so I started with synthetic wool pads swicking from buckets below. Then on to perlite beds, and saw some cool root stuff.

Now that I have watched some roots I'm better prepped for SIP'ing.

Myco infesting a wool pad is so fascinating. I will visit that one again.

If I can get the wicks to move enough water then having myco control that only makes sense.

I think an upside down collander in the bottom of my grow bag for an air gap, then set the bag on perlite, will be my next try, and quite possibly a SIP right beside it.

How well bubble cloning and bottom watering jive is mind blowing. I have never seen anything like it before. Cut a clone, and 34 days later it's 2 feet tall and going into flower in a 10gal pot. I'm oddly good with that. I will never use a veg pot again.

I can't wait to try true SIP' ing.

I must start some Durban Poison so I am dealing with a strain I know quite well.
 
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