SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[Azimuth]

Welcome back ResDog. Nice to see you resurface.

Hm, I dunno if this new setup qualifies as SIP anymore, Azi. I thought we were being hardasses about the reservoir/air gap/matrix setup? Lol.

How so? If anything, this design is more  classic SIP than my previous one with all of the required elements and a standard pot filling approach.

So what about it do you think fails the tests?

If you add knf/Jadam from the top, say, weekly, but never in enough quantity to wipe out your moisture gradient or leech into reservoir, then knf/Jadam work very well and I have been getting good plant response to mine.

Yeah, I already know I can do it that way as that's how I rescued previous grows from deficiency issues, but I'd like to get it working mostly down the fill tube if possible. Still working that out atm.

It’s basically a SIP design for seedlings so they develop SIP root structure from the start. If you do this then when seedling is at 5 nodes you may plant in main SIP without stalling and save yourself two weeks.

I'm trying that now but it seems as though it just transfers the transition time to the seedling pot as it takes time for the plant to produce the water roots. Now granted I've also got other things I'm playing with so it's not a clean test.

Are you saying your seedling SIPs start off as fast as a wet/dry cycle seedling planted at the same time?

 

[NickHardy]

Two week transplant stall?!! I hadn’t heard of that. I’m a week since transplant and have had basically no growth. She looks healthy but the coco grow next to her has doubled in size.

That’s good to know it can happen.

 

[Azimuth]

Two week transplant stall?!! I hadn’t heard of that. I’m a week since transplant and have had basically no growth. She looks healthy but the coco grow next to her has doubled in size.

That’s good to know it can happen.

What we've found pretty consistently is that if you started the seedling in a normal fashion with the wet/dry cycle, the plant will have to convert the normal water seeking roots to those more used to a wetter environment and that can take 2-3 weeks but then the plant more than makes up for the delay.

 

[NickHardy]

Gotcha. Thanks Azi. Not been keeping up. This is why @Weffalo started his second grow in the SIP, I guess?

 

[Thirvnrob]

What we've found pretty consistently is that if you started the seedling in a normal fashion with the wet/dry cycle, the plant will have to convert the normal water seeking roots to those more used to a wetter environment and that can take 2-3 weeks but then the plant more than makes up for the delay.

Thanks Azi - that explains a lot. That's exactly how I started my girls. I expected them to be overwhelming me by now. I'll give 'em another week before I declare total failure...

 

[ReservoirDog]

Welcome back ResDog. Nice to see you resurface.

Are you saying your seedling SIPs start off as fast as a wet/dry cycle seedling planted at the same time?

Thnx mate.

Yeah… to be clear: my SIP seedling grows normal - fast in its mini-sip but more importantly, when I transplant @ 5 nodes into my 7 gal faux-cto-pots the transplants aren’t stalling at all, no slowdown and in the race to say, 10 nodes overall is faster (and larger) compared to a classic container gardening scenario’s best case.

I use those hairnet-fabric wee forestry baggies so my seedlings are in mini smart pots, essentially, and air-prune giving you dendritic root branching, not wrapping itself up in a pot.

They look like this…, now the roots stuck out far on this here because it’s in a fish tank with 99%rh so roots we’re staying moist. But they still airpruned eventually. When you set it up as I’ll explain you won’t get roots that long before self pruning but I shared so you can see from the pattern that each one is one root pruning itself then branchinh off inside the dirt and poking out again a few mm lower, it’s simply an illustration of the baggy and the extreme pruning eg.

I’ll continue in a new entry

 

[ReservoirDog]

So you order your little baggies from TheNile. They cost literally a Penny per and store a lot better than little pots lemme tell ya.

Fill em up with your matrix and put aside. You’ll want in and around a certain size, I’ll illustrate them here in a minute.

Then you get a 500ml pop bottle or next best thing and cut into 2 inch cross sections. You also want a few pinholes in the plastic so it can let water in. A lighter a fork tong or other metal pokey thing is what I used and you are good at a half dozen holes, more is fine too. Put ‘em low down so water will get in even when bowl level is very low.

Take one pop bottle 2 inch cross section ‘ring’ and put it in the bottom of a cereal bowl.

Fill inside the ring with perlite (best) or peat/perlite (next best) even small gravel wicks water. Our example pics here are using oat flakes instead of perlite and pea gravel instead of dirt in the planter baggy, for illustration only and a small plastic cup cut in 2 inch section bc I couldn’t find a pop bottle.

But I find at two inches high, which is what we cut our ring to here, that you get a good capillary flow using medium perlite. Pack it down, esp if using dirt or peat so it can’t sag away from the planter bottom and lose the connection, it needs to be full.

Place your wee hairnet-material baggy atop the perlite filled ring in bowl and press down so it has a good connection, seal, and is stable. They won’t tip over.

Fill bowl with one inch of water, which is halfway up the 2 inch high section of plastic, perlite-filled pop bottle section ring that your new “mini smart pot” sits atop. Don’t overfill past 1 inch or you might make things too wet in the baggy.

Your bag o dirt will suck up all the water pretty quick but don’t water again until top is dry. Thankfully, because air reaches all sides not just the top with these baggies they dry quickly, which means they pull a lot of water and it really helps keep everything fresh.

You won’t get scummy algae like on my initial pic, that thing was sitting in nearasmakesnodifference a ‘pond’ getting abused every way I could think of.

Your baggie/SIP will fill with chunky roots from all the air pruning but will also develop a moisture gradient even though it’s got barely more dirt than a solo cup because of the constant drying from being a fabric bag. This really makes the gradient work even in such a small package.

Transplant after 5th node appears. You will need to feed your plants before transplant. You can make water into fertigation, or, mix in some with the matrix of your planter baggy at the start.

When transplanting you just drop the bag in the hole you made in the Daddy SIP after you’ve filled with matrix, charged the SIP with a half full reservoir that you let soak up and into SIP matrix for 24 hrs minimum.

Now, recently I’ve been raising my seedlings and small rooted cuttings in bags of almost pure compost/EWC/mycorrhizae with a little perlite mixed in for aeration but basic peat/perlite works fine too.

 

[Weffalo]

Gotcha. Thanks Azi. Not been keeping up. This is why @Weffalo started his second grow in the SIP, I guess?

Yep mate, I started mine in the final container and there was no root adjustment phase or any sort of delay that I found. The key I think is properly establishing the moisture gradient early on so your roots can find it and develop into the SIP feeder style roots ASAP. ReservoirDog's instructions on one of the earlier pages of this post have been gospel to me and worked flawlessly

So you order your little baggies from TheNile. They cost literally a Penny per and store a lot better than little pots lemme tell ya.

Fill em up with your matrix and put aside. You’ll want in and around a certain size, I’ll illustrate them here in a minute.

Then you get a 500ml pop bottle or next best thing and cut into 2 inch cross sections. You also want a few pinholes in the plastic so it can let water in. A lighter a fork tong or other metal pokey thing is what I used and you are good at a half dozen holes, more is fine too. Put ‘em low down so water will get in even when bowl level is very low.

Take one pop bottle 2 inch cross section ‘ring’ and put it in the bottom of a cereal bowl.

Fill inside the ring with perlite (best) or peat/perlite (next best) even small gravel wicks water. Our example pics here are using oat flakes instead of perlite and pea gravel instead of dirt in the planter baggy, for illustration only and a small plastic cup cut in 2 inch section bc I couldn’t find a pop bottle.

But I find at two inches high, which is what we cut our ring to here, that you get a good capillary flow using medium perlite. Pack it down, esp if using dirt or peat so it can’t sag away from the planter bottom and lose the connection, it needs to be full.

Place your wee hairnet-material baggy atop the perlite filled ring in bowl and press down so it has a good connection, seal, and is stable. They won’t tip over.

Fill bowl with one inch of water, which is halfway up the 2 inch high section of plastic, perlite-filled pop bottle section ring that your new “mini smart pot” sits atop. Don’t overfill past 1 inch or you might make things too wet in the baggy.

Your bag o dirt will suck up all the water pretty quick but don’t water again until top is dry. Thankfully, because air reaches all sides not just the top with these baggies they dry quickly, which means they pull a lot of water and it really helps keep everything fresh.

You won’t get scummy algae like on my initial pic, that thing was sitting in nearasmakesnodifference a ‘pond’ getting abused every way I could think of.

Your baggie/SIP will fill with chunky roots from all the air pruning but will also develop a moisture gradient even though it’s got barely more dirt than a solo cup because of the constant drying from being a fabric bag. This really makes the gradient work even in such a small package.

Transplant after 5th node appears. You will need to feed your plants before transplant. You can make water into fertigation, or, mix in some with the matrix of your planter baggy at the start.

When transplanting you just drop the bag in the hole you made in the Daddy SIP after you’ve filled with matrix, charged the SIP with a half full reservoir that you let soak up and into SIP matrix for 24 hrs minimum.

Now, recently I’ve been raising my seedlings and small rooted cuttings in bags of almost pure compost/EWC/mycorrhizae with a little perlite mixed in for aeration but basic peat/perlite works fine too.

Wow! Great to have you back @ReservoirDog - Great tutorial on how you do seedlings, I may just do this for my next ones. I had great success with following your instructions to prep the SIP and planting directly into final container.

There is an obvious advantage here with using less space until the plant is properly established... so I can start 2 seedlings before having the space for 2, 5 gal buckets but I'm also wondering if you've tested this method vs direct in final container and if it has any other benefits? I've experienced no obvious downsides to using the direct plant in final container SIP but I'm wondering if growth could have been even more explosive

 

[StoneOtter]

Are they in your sponsored grow?

No. Cherries DubeLee In A S.I.P. - An LOS Grow
She relaxed yesterday!

 

[Azimuth]

Yeah… to be clear: my SIP seedling grows normal - fast in its mini-sip but more importantly, when I transplant @ 5 nodes into my 7 gal faux-cto-pots the transplants aren’t stalling at all, no slowdown and in the race to say, 10 nodes overall is faster (and larger) compared to a classic container gardening scenario’s best case.

Ok, good to know.

So you order your little baggies from TheNile. They cost literally a Penny per and store a lot better than little pots lemme tell ya.

And the bags are called what?

Then you get a 500ml pop bottle or next best thing and cut into 2 inch cross sections. You also want a few pinholes in the plastic so it can let water in. A lighter a fork tong or other metal pokey thing is what I used and you are good at a half dozen holes, more is fine too. Put ‘em low down so water will get in even when bowl level is very low.

I'd imagine a straight bed of perlite would work here as well, kind of like the Swick concept. The normal timing has worked well for me in my perpetual grow, but I may give this a go just to see. Thanks for sharing.

I've experienced no obvious downsides to using the direct plant in final container SIP but I'm wondering if growth could have been even more explosive

Greedy bastard.

 

[Weffalo]

Just thought I'd post a pic of four days veg time in a 5 gal SIP, planted as a seed into this container so the roots formed very early:

Taken on Weds:

Taken today (Day 33 above ground):

I've no non-SIP project to compare it too but to my inexperienced eyes this seems like amazing bulk in such a short time... I've got 3-4 weeks of veg left in this tent and if that's under a week I'm both excited and scared to see how big she gets before flip

 

[Azimuth]

Taken on Weds:

Taken today (Day 33 above ground):

Pretty crazy, right?

I've no non-SIP project to compare it too but to my inexperienced eyes this seems like amazing bulk in such a short time... I've got 3-4 weeks of veg left in this tent and if that's under a week I'm both excited and scared to see how big she gets before flip

Depending on your grow space you may have to shorten your veg period since they will stretch both up  and out once you flip. They'll increase in height typically between 2-3x what they were so many growers work backward.

Figure out how much vertical space from the lights you have to work with (including light manufacturer's distance recommendations) and then flip when they are 1/2 to 1/3 third of that. That's where training horizontally like you're doing with your quadlining can help by delaying to turn upwards.

 

[Weffalo]

Pretty crazy, right?


Depending on your grow space you may have to shorten your veg period since they will stretch both up  and out once you flip. They'll increase in height typically between 2-3x what they were so many growers work backward.

Figure out how much vertical space from the lights you have to work with (including light manufacturer's distance recommendations) and then flip when they are 1/2 to 1/3 third of that. That's where training horizontally like you're doing with your quadlining can help by delaying to turn upwards.

Definitely crazy Super exciting stuff.

That's great info as always thanks mate, I have loads of room upwards so I don't think that will be a problem, flower space is 48”x48”x80” it's just the veg tent is only 48''X24''X71". I Just want them to get as wide as possible so they can get even wider after flip, it's a big space for one plant.

 

[NickHardy]

Pretty crazy, right?


Depending on your grow space you may have to shorten your veg period since they will stretch both up  and out once you flip. They'll increase in height typically between 2-3x what they were so many growers work backward.

Figure out how much vertical space from the lights you have to work with (including light manufacturer's distance recommendations) and then flip when they are 1/2 to 1/3 third of that. That's where training horizontally like you're doing with your quadlining can help by delaying to turn upwards.

This is such important advice. Last time I was ok mostly because the room was so empty, but take off the inline, the lights and drivers and cables and all that and the pot, and suddenly a 2m/6Ft tent you’re uh oh.

Stall confirmed true. Funny just last night I learn. Today half an inch out. The top leaf was the dog or the cat depending on who you believe and even that looks to be recovering. Outward growth maybe 1/2” today after nothing for a week.

Lets see what outdoor tropical sun and fresh air can do for my SIP. She looks pretty good right now to me.

 

[StoneOtter]

Just thought I'd post a pic of four days veg time in a 5 gal SIP, planted as a seed into this container so the roots formed very early:

Taken on Weds:

Taken today (Day 33 above ground):

I've no non-SIP project to compare it too but to my inexperienced eyes this seems like amazing bulk in such a short time... I've got 3-4 weeks of veg left in this tent and if that's under a week I'm both excited and scared to see how big she gets before flip

That's an amazing 3 day period!

 

[NickHardy]

Weff so much better than me - he remembers to post the picture

End of stall after 8 days.jpeg

• NickHardy
• Jan 16, 2023

Its outdoor at about 30 minutes before sunset they are perfect mid green leaves all over. Really impressed.

 

[Fenderbender]

Oooh I got munched on plant as well, too bad the cats stay clear once she's flowering otherwise I'd have excellent bud trimmers!

 

[Azimuth]

Weff so much better than me - he remembers to post the picture

End of stall after 8 days.jpeg

• NickHardy
• Jan 16, 2023

Its outdoor at about 30 minutes before sunset they are perfect mid green leaves all over. Really impressed.

Yeah, better plants from better growers. And all just due to the pot design.

 

[NickHardy]

I can’t claim credit for the design it was hacked from stuff/builds in this thread. But I am definitely doing another one this week.

In my main grow I randomly under the influence of some Cali grown Zoap decided to throw some weird mountain/volcano rocks sold in the gardening section of the local chain called “Super Cheap” Wording all in Thai and saw N. P, K, and a bunch more. Long story short my plants looked awful but was adding Co2 at the same time. Went solo cup to 1 gallon rootballs in 4 days. Amazing.

My next SIPS gonna swap the gravel type rocks for those things. Still have lots left. They are sold for promoting fert release in a budget store chain for pennies.

My initial design below.

Nick

Sip3.jpeg

• NickHardy
• Nov 30, 2022

 

[Azimuth]

I can’t claim credit for the design it was hacked from stuff/builds in this thread. But I am definitely doing another one this week.

In my main grow I randomly under the influence of some Cali grown Zoap decided to throw some weird mountain/volcano rocks sold in the gardening section of the local chain called “Super Cheap” Wording all in Thai and saw N. P, K, and a bunch more. Long story short my plants looked awful but was adding Co2 at the same time. Went solo cup to 1 gallon rootballs in 4 days. Amazing.

My next SIPS gonna swap the gravel type rocks for those things. Still have lots left. They are sold for promoting fert release in a budget store chain for pennies.

My initial design below.

Nick

Sip3.jpeg

• NickHardy
• Nov 30, 2022

I'd keep the stones around the overflow hole but lose the rest. There seems to be some magic in having soil all the way to the bottom, at least in an organic grow. And with your dome, I don't see much need for extra water reserve that the stones would provide.

Or at least build some of them that way so you can compare.