Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[NickHardy]

Because we have a whole bunch of top end growers of all different persuasions here - “chellation”

Who has the best grower friendly description?


Real world useful

I’ll go with:

Its the ability of a plant to absorb the given nutrients most effectively.

I’d add - we can also have an impact on this with Ph and here is a favourite graph!

My understanding is we can improve the chellation by punching stuff in at the right Ph.

5.8 is Goldilocks for pretty much everything. But you got options, typically our nutes mix at 6.3 and we Ph down to 5.8. 24 hours later they bump back to 6.3 but for the plants need multiple feeds per day I let it ride at 6-6.1 to give a little different.

Main feed in the evening unless I see an issue is always 5.8

You want more potential P and K uptake in flower drop the Ph - NB that is the coco graph. Soil slightly different.

 

[NickHardy]

Oh yeah micro/macro nuttrients sure. Lets keep relatively straight forward

 

[Bill284]

Because we have a whole bunch of top end growers of all different persuasions here - “chellation”

Who has the best grower friendly description?


Real world useful

I’ll go with:

Its the ability of a plant to absorb the given nutrients most effectively.

I’d add - we can also have an impact on this with Ph and here is a favourite graph!

My understanding is we can improve the chellation by punching stuff in at the right Ph.

5.8 is Goldilocks for pretty much everything. But you got options, typically our nutes mix at 6.3 and we Ph down to 5.8. 24 hours later they bump back to 6.3 but for the plants need multiple feeds per day I let it ride at 6-6.1 to give a little different.

Main feed in the evening unless I see an issue is always 5.8

If you have a big healthy rootball with DYNOMYCO and other microbes in there it's much easier for her to pick up nutrients.
But in coco I still aim for 5.8, besides those charts always have some minor variation.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[NickHardy]

Is there anything not going to be discussed in this thread? lol

'Ain't this boogie a mess...'

Stink eye. We’re not discussing that?

 

[InTheShed]

Chelation is best explained by @farside05 here:

Growing Without Bloom Nutes By Farside05

I never do those posts on a phone. Not worth the effort! On my phone I can't even hotlink a word/phrase.

www.420magazine.com

 

[NickHardy]

Chelation is best explained by @farside05 here:

Growing Without Bloom Nutes By Farside05

I never do those posts on a phone. Not worth the effort! On my phone I can't even hotlink a word/phrase.

www.420magazine.com

No linkage on this one, please, Sir!

Yes I know the difference between salts and sodium (iodised, kosher, sea or not)

The post is great although not that its particularly important brand specific.

Also powdered nutes?! Yeah thats a continental north American thing Crazy talk! Gotta think global.

C’mon Shed! In your own words!

 

[NickHardy]

There are a lot of great growers reading this, long experienced.

Bill simplifies it more than me - big roots great plants.

Personally meh. Roots are over rated. Spend more time growing upstairs please!

But Bill gave his opinion @DYNOMYCO and he likes bokashi and frass chasing rootballs

chelation is maximising the potential uptake of nutrients by the plant and can be controlled or influenced with Ph at point of delivery is my stated opinion.

I could wax detailed on types of salt based nutrients and how organic or not they might be but that’s a different discussion.

That, that post is the best on it?

Not even close for me.

Where is @ReservoirDog !?

This is his kinda thing for sure.

 

[InTheShed]

No linkage on this one, please, Sir!
Yes I know the difference between salts and sodium (iodised, kosher, sea or not)
The post is great although not that its particularly important brand specific.
Also powdered nutes?! Yeah thats a continental north American thing Crazy talk! Gotta think global.
C’mon Shed! In your own words!

Chelation isn't brand-specific nor is does it make a difference whether your product is powder or liquid. It's a way of making certain micronutrients (the metals, i.e. iron, copper, zinc, manganese, et al.) in synthetic nutrients available to the plants.

 

[InTheShed]

chelation is maximising the potential uptake of nutrients by the plant and can be controlled or influenced with Ph at point of delivery is my stated opinion.

Chelation is only related to the metals in synthetic nutrients, which make up less than 1% of the mix. NPK, Ca, Mg, S, Si are not chelated.

 

[NickHardy]

There you go!

Thank you.

Terms like “chelated minerals” are often used without much of a definition. So, why is chelation important, how does it work and are all chelated minerals the same?

Chelation - the Science of Healthy Soil - Converte

What is Chelation? Converte an Australian Bio-Agri company sets out to answer the critical questions about soil health and its impacts.

www.converte.com.au

All I’m asking is for real world examples and definitions - we aren’t the first people to be discussing this and its certainly not cannabis sativa specific.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Chelation is only related to the metals in synthetic nutrients, which make up less than 1% of the mix. NPK, Ca, Mg, S, Si are not chelated.

Well, this is interesting. On the back of my bag of MC it lists both salts and amino acid chelated versions of both calcium and magnesium.
However it doesn't list what percentages of the total amounts are in which form.

 

[Wastei]

Well, this is interesting. On the back of my bag of MC it lists both salts and amino acid chelated versions of both calcium and magnesium.
However it doesn't list what percentages of the total amounts are in which form.

I pointed this out to a Mega Crop rep on another forum stated why they don't list full list of percentage and inactive ingredients? They didn't have a good answer.

I've always had a sediment with Mega Crop that I believe to be the amino acids, they don't seem to be very water soluble. They dissolve slightly better in very hot water. That being said I've had very little issues with Mega Crop in everything from coir to Aero.

I'm glad I have a stock of the old 2 part formula without any kelp added!

Cheers!

 

[InTheShed]

Well, this is interesting. On the back of my bag of MC it lists both salts and amino acid chelated versions of both calcium and magnesium.
However it doesn't list what percentages of the total amounts are in which form.

Saw that too and never seen it before. I know it's not necessary since no one else does it. Since they don't mention percentages and also list alphabetically (conveniently listing "Amino" first ), my guess is it's more marketing than anything!

 

[Wastei]

Chelation is only related to the metals in synthetic nutrients, which make up less than 1% of the mix. NPK, Ca, Mg, S, Si are not chelated.

Calcium and Magnesium are both metals and Si is what's called a "metalloid".

 

[NickHardy]

We add in a Thai local garden centre product in “Home Pro” a big box type store here. Its called “Amino Plus Seaweed”

Don’t use close to harvest or your buds smell of fish I hate that smell.

But the sediment it leaves is crazy. Blocks every irrigation type we use.

@Wastei correct to flag the amino sediment issues

 

[Keffka]

Ours is delivered with 20% perlite added and myco. Some such as @Keffka contend that myco in coco is pointless.

Keffka? I thought that madness when you told me. But now I think not completely pointless but not a big deal you miss it. I understand the science of what you were saying about it now

It’s fine in coco. It’s fine in any medium. The problem is once available nutrients are introduced, and coco is typically used with available nutrients.

Even if somehow you didn’t stop colonization or suppress its growth, you still wouldn’t benefit from it if you’re using available nutrients. Myco doesn’t force extra nutrients into the plant, it will only give the plant what it’s asked for in exchange for exudates. If a plant is being fed with available nutrients, it doesn’t need anything from the myco so it won’t give the myco the exudates (giving myco exudates costs the plant as much as 30% of its resources, so it’s not a cheap partnership taken on lightly) myco needs to live and so the myco won’t do anything. There is zero benefit to using myco when using chelated and/or available nutrients.

If you’re using available nutrients and paid extra for myco, then you’re just wasting money. If it’s an added bonus you haven’t paid for then it won’t hinder your grow, but it won’t help.

Teaming with Fungi is a great book on the subject.

 

[Jon]

Our coco since we’re close to the source is coco peat

Its important to note. I did a youtube on it but ai’ll update with a vimeo as its better for linking. Its the white bit the coconut and some internal husk. It looks like lush silk soil - really like something out of the Sears catalogue ladies section

Coco coir is the chunkier outer husk and the bricks are that dehydrated. Almost wood chips.

Ours is delivered with 20% perlite added and myco. Some such as @Keffka contend that myco in coco is pointless.

Keffka? I thought that madness when you told me. But now I think not completely pointless but not a big deal you miss it. I understand the science of what you were saying about it now.

Why 50/50?

The two solo cups in my 5x5 in this very grow are coco peat for the OGK and perlite for the Bubba Kush. So we have a live experiment.

It just feels right to me watching them grow.

BUT - Prof Bugbee has a video where they tested it to death and decided the best mediium for growing hemp was 48% Coco 48% Perlite and 4% the rest vermili whatever and whatever.

So I’m not claiming it to be my idea by any means!

Also good point Mel - my Farmer mate Ph’s in coco indoors but not outdoors!

Bill (and I learnt from him) is religious about 5.8 in indoors but yeah - just realised he doesn’t greenhouse, right @Bill284 ?

Grow in coco, feed to run off every day with the low end of the nute manufacturers range and Ph to 5.8

Honestly - you will grow amazing plants. Promise its that easy.

Well thanks. And I actually agree with a lot of this. Interesting. I already grow amazing plants. Most of the people in this thread can say the same. That’s easy. I want the best there is or can be. Always my goal. That’s much more difficult.

 

[Jon]

I did it hempy style, so there's a res at the bottom of the bucket.
You start off feeding around every 3rd day.
Late veg into early flower is every other day, and then every day in late flower.
Those are really estimates, and you don't really want the res to run dry.
You're feeding to a good amount of runoff, to flush any unused nutes out.
You could also do it the way @MicroGrowerMan was doing it by lining the bottom of a plastic pot with landscaping fabric and giving daily fertigation to slight runoff.

I mostly found it wasn't needed, except for certain strains, like Black Sugar. Then it didn't take much, so yes, I would try less first.

I just pop the seed in the perlite, about half a cm to 1 cm deep, and use a spray bottle to soak the perlite, giving it another spray every 12 hours or so. About 36 hours later I'm seeing movement.
Any shallower and it can push itself out of the perlite, at which point you have to bury it like the paper towel gang, but since perlite is so light you're not likely to damage the taproot doing so.
I just popped some seeds in my swempy journal. The Godzilla Glue #4 seed I planted the day before yesterday has popped, and should break the surface either later today or overnight tonight.

I haven't used coco, so I can't say how different it would be from those mixes, but as @bluter says, one litre of hempy is worth one gallon of soil.
Smaller pots can grow large plants.
It's worth noting that I had roots right up to and even breaking the surface in smaller pots.

Awesome. Amazing. Thanks so much for the patience with all my dumb questions.

 

[Jon]

Is there anything not going to be discussed in this thread? lol

'Ain't this boogie a mess...'

Keeps em guessing, @Roy Growin, and super sweet call on the Zappa.

 

[Jon]

When I use Remo or Plagron nutrients, my catch trays have a 1/2" of solid buildup.
Hard as a rock.
I didn't get that with MC.
It didn't have the salt build up I should have said.
So I didn't bother with runoff for last half of flower.
Reduced the rh in the greenhouse nicely.
Mixing it full strength the ph was dead on 5.8 every time.
Didn't have to worry about it was my point.


Stay safe
Bill284

Yup. Remo will leave a little I have seen that at times but not always. Less so when I stay at 8ml for all flower. And me too, do we just get lucky with our tap or river ph? I am always amazed at how little I have to use ph up or down with Remo. Also holds very steady in a reservoir, more so than the Cyco.