Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Jon]

Thanks buddy. appreciate it.

I’ll pass on the offer. My bemused indifference conceals a genuine worry you’ve talked yourself into the “This is achievable” column.

You have 9 plants and are already talking about potentially needing to drop plant(s)? Not very reassuring is it?

You’re using previously untested nutes but then splitting the George’s Marvellous Medicine amendment that you vacillate between deciding its wonder juice or its a dangerous unknown.

You have a known pest vector. A strain that’ll nanner you so much as strike a match in the next room.

And your plants by your own admission are out of control. Wildly surpassed your ability to martial them in early veg, stretch barely on the horizon and already playing catch up.

Your offer to ask me concede seems like the ravings of a madman as his train careens down a hill shedding wheels and parts rushing down towards a broken wooden bridge crossing a ravine with a fast running rocky river hundreds of feet below. A final couple of blasts on the locomotive horn before… well I think I’ve painted the picture you can fill in the next moments.

Many a twist between the cup and the lip

So they say.

My Dixie Cups? Oh they do ok. They are a bit special. Ask @Greenvein he gets it. He has the same irrigation collars I think.

All about perspective.

Good Day to you, Sir,

En guarde!

Nick

See? That’s why I took you on @NickHardy, cuz you talk shit as well as I do. Touché. But allow me to correct your misinterpretation. All that chaos you described I have going on?

This is what I do Nick. I am the boss of chaos. Chaos is my bitch. And if you believe I am incapable of managing everything you said, you sorely underestimate my skills. As I am about to demonstrate.

Can’t say I didn’t give you a shot to save your ego.

Good luck!

 

[Jon]

Although I will admit, he’s got a point. This is only day 21. Can’t even see the stretch yet on the horizon. And I already have this. If I’m not on my game this tent will become a moldy rainforest.

 

[KeithLemon]

I am in and yes, I was tagged last year.

 

[Jon]

Well, that's true but he's not using it as a biochar amendment in the soil in which case he would need to charge it. Instead, he's using it as a top dressing on the soil much like one might use sand or DE, as a barrier to bugs.

So, unless he plans to incorporate it into the soil later there is no need to treat it.

Thanks Azi, that’s what my research said so I pretty much just thanked him for the heads up. Already knew the comment was irrelevant to my usage.

 

[Jon]

Here’s where I keep them overnight:

 

[Schnookie]

Thanks buddy. appreciate it.

I’ll pass on the offer. My bemused indifference conceals a genuine worry you’ve talked yourself into the “This is achievable” column.

You have 9 plants and are already talking about potentially needing to drop plant(s)? Not very reassuring is it?

You’re using previously untested nutes but then splitting the George’s Marvellous Medicine amendment that you vacillate between deciding its wonder juice or its a dangerous unknown.

You have a known pest vector. A strain that’ll nanner you so much as strike a match in the next room.

And your plants by your own admission are out of control. Wildly surpassed your ability to martial them in early veg, stretch barely on the horizon and already playing catch up.

Your offer to ask me concede seems like the ravings of a madman as his train careens down a hill shedding wheels and parts rushing down towards a broken wooden bridge crossing a ravine with a fast running rocky river hundreds of feet below. A final couple of blasts on the locomotive horn before… well I think I’ve painted the picture you can fill in the next moments.

Many a twist between the cup and the lip

So they say.

My Dixie Cups? Oh they do ok. They are a bit special. Ask @Greenvein he gets it. He has the same irrigation collars I think.

All about perspective.

Good Day to you, Sir,

En guarde!

Nick

DAYAMMMN!

 

[NickHardy]

I am in and yes, I was tagged last year.

Hi Kevin. Good to see you round these parts!

 

[Jon]

DAYAMMMN!

Yeah he didn’t miss too many targets with that did he. It’s okay. I let him feel that way because I know the embarrassment that awaits him and I’m hesitant to shatter all my buddy’s favorite illusions.

 

[g-one-three]

32 pages of insults, chaos and crazy different grow techniques, awesome I'm in and ready for the next 400 pages haha.

 

[Jon]

So I can talk a bit of shit but let’s try and actually present some info advanced growers can use and if we get lucky even introduce something the more experienced folks haven’t tried yet. I got a super secret training trick I use that may be new to some, I’ll give it a shot.

So to absorb this requires you to do so without photographic support.

You guys have seen how I make my ring around the canopies from the lower nodes and then try to get that ring to catch up to the horizontally running top two nodes, and in this style of training that’s my base and I add from there, yes? It’s pretty basic “Ring Training” and is one of the best and easiest starting point methods of training. Great for newbies too cuz even the first try you can get it pretty much right. Once they catch up, with autos you’re pretty much at flower. So o try to get to the point I’m at now ASAP. That way I basically go vertical for as long as possible with tweaks as desired or required. Again, no mystery, and not anything you guys are not familiar with. I’m just getting half decent at it now but that’s my base.

The question is, how is this most effectively done, and the answer is always the same: the challenge you have to overcome to get a perfect canopy exists only with autos, and it’s the catch up. This is the key to the entire thing. It’s the difference between the dream canopy you want and one that will maybe still be awesome but not at the height you had hoped. Because in this style, if you miss, the only fix to maintain flatness is to go wider and lower. Not ideal. So you have to nail it and in this situation, for me in reality to even have a chance to beat a photo 5x5 running 1000 watts and CO2 with my none of that auto tent, I have to nail 9. And I also have to make it so they all end up at the same canopy height. Or close enough to make flat with adjusting plant heights, but that’s very hard to do at this point. I basically have to get it right.

This is not an easy trick you can do with no thought. Maybe if all nine were the same strain. But I have six strains in two mediums with three grow styles and four nute companies in play. It’s not an eyes closed grow for me, I ain’t that good.

So I figured out how to nail it every time, and therein lies the trick I want to share.

This trick works for and is relevant for those who do canopies like I do, from underneath with staking and wire vs with a net. This is not a scrog trick but specific to the other way. And it is also an auto specific trick, which would also apply to 30 day veg photos trained the same way.

You are first pulling the branches out as flat as you can, restaking as you grow wider, right? Then when you’ve achieved your desired width, the stakes either come off or start to get loosened to allow for vertical growth, yes? This is how I do that and as I was taught is a very common method everyone should be familiar with. Meanwhile, depending on the nodal spacing, you have made the top two and maybe next two down go horizontal until the lowers catch up. Standard ring shit.

What I’ve found is a combo of managing infrastructure and managing the plant. It allows you to get it right every time. So your stakes with the wire you use to tie down with. If you have the wire always secured to the top and you use 12” stakes, this is what is needed to do this.

When you have gotten almost to the point of the width you want on the initial horizontalization of the branches, make sure you have the stake pushed as deeply into your medium as you can. The key to this is being able to adjust as often as possible and you get more options if you have more slack on the stake.

Now think of that stake anchor as your brand new control rod device. Use one to anchor each of the in play branches whether or not they need stakes so that each branch you want to use has a stake. Now, you have the required option with which to control both vertically and horizontally at the same time by simply repositioning the stake for horizontal and by pulling it a bit higher from the medium for vertical. It works like a joystick that has left right and up down.

You use it to ensure that the catch up works. You find you will be able to gradually see when you need say, two days loose to allow upwards growth on the bottom node stakes while keeping the top two nodes horizontal yet. Or you need a few more days staked lower on the low nodes cuz the spacing is tighter and if you don’t it will outgrow the top. Or, if they’re getting close to catch up and it time to tweak.

The trick is almost just a mindset about working with a common setup. But it’s also a methodology of its own. Use one stake per branch, and use the sum to promote and ensure the catch up, by using that stake as your control rod.

At the moment I’m in the middle of a two day up on all my lower nodes, with the tops still horizontal. Two days and they’ll be closer. Then hold and go wider. The see where you are and etc etc.

Once you get it down, you realize you are controlling overall growth on this plant from all directions at the same time. It is the essence of bending the plant to your will. The side benefit is that it keeps everything symmetrical which is the ideal for ring training.

So weird post that’s not quite a method or a trick or a mindset, but rather a results oriented rumination.

FWIW

 

[KeithLemon]

Dam Jon I have never grown an auto or indoor grow but with those direction I think I could almost pull it off. Your good brother. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Jon]

Hydro Question

I have two plant with 2 1/2 gallon coco pots atop a five gallon nute reservoir. Both five gallon buckets have a 4” air stone with a dedicated pump. As a result, I have the most amazing field of bubbles and flow in the res I could dream of. And the pump with output level infinite sweep dial is brilliant for controlling the bubbles.

What I’m finding is that a wide field of serious bubbles is keeping the reservoirs PH stable or within the limit I want (5.5 at lowest to 6.0 highest, I prefer to start at 5.5 and let it rise as taught by the ubiquitous and awesome @Rexer) for a LOT longer than anytime before. In previous attempts I thought a five gallon bucket didn’t need a larger air stone so used the real small golf ball sized ones. The difference is gigantic and also seems to keep the roots clean, which is something you must sacrifice to some extent using this method.

My question is, is what I’m seeing in fact what I’m seeing? Any hydro guys out there who could tell me if I’m on the right track here? Thanks in advance for any input!!!

 

[Jon]

Hydro Question

I have two plant with 2 1/2 gallon coco pots atop a five gallon nute reservoir. Both five gallon buckets have a 4” air stone with a dedicated pump. As a result, I have the most amazing field of bubbles and flow in the res I could dream of. And the pump with output level infinite sweep dial is brilliant for controlling the bubbles.

What I’m finding is that a wide field of serious bubbles is keeping the reservoirs PH stable or within the limit I want (5.5 at lowest to 6.0 highest, I prefer to start at 5.5 and let it rise as taught by the ubiquitous and awesome @Rexer) for a LOT longer than anytime before. In previous attempts I thought a five gallon bucket didn’t need a larger air stone so used the real small golf ball sized ones. The difference is gigantic and also seems to keep the roots clean, which is something you must sacrifice to some extent using this method.

My question is, is what I’m seeing in fact what I’m seeing? Any hydro guys out there who could tell me if I’m on the right track here? Thanks in advance for any input!!!

Btw @NickHardy - this is why I don’t fear trying stuff I’m not a pro at even in a contest - cuz on 420, neither one of us is competing one on one. We are competing with the most insanely talented support army we could imagine. I can learn whatever I need to right here in real time because people here are fucking badasses. So nice try but try another.

 

[KeithLemon]

This is a nice place we have here.

 

[Greenvein]

Hydro Question

I have two plant with 2 1/2 gallon coco pots atop a five gallon nute reservoir. Both five gallon buckets have a 4” air stone with a dedicated pump. As a result, I have the most amazing field of bubbles and flow in the res I could dream of. And the pump with output level infinite sweep dial is brilliant for controlling the bubbles.

What I’m finding is that a wide field of serious bubbles is keeping the reservoirs PH stable or within the limit I want (5.5 at lowest to 6.0 highest, I prefer to start at 5.5 and let it rise as taught by the ubiquitous and awesome @Rexer) for a LOT longer than anytime before. In previous attempts I thought a five gallon bucket didn’t need a larger air stone so used the real small golf ball sized ones. The difference is gigantic and also seems to keep the roots clean, which is something you must sacrifice to some extent using this method.

My question is, is what I’m seeing in fact what I’m seeing? Any hydro guys out there who could tell me if I’m on the right track here? Thanks in advance for any input!!!

Sounds awesome bro! I just messed up a grow from being lazy.. every day my resovoir would drop so I would use pH up every morning before feeding.. my pH up is potassium bicarbonate so I'm guessing the crazy amount of potassium I was using made my root zone unbalanced and caused other deficiencies.. i should have just put a air stone in there to out gas co2 and keep my resovoir stable.

It depends on what nutrients and water you are using I suppose. before with organic salts my resovoir would naturally go up so I used a pump instead of airstone to keep it under control.

Imo airated water is better in all hydro grows and I think it can give you a extra boost in Coco when in veg as they can struggle until established.

A guess to your pearly white roots, stained roots in Coco could be from Suffocating (low oxygen) or from heavy feeding.. either way your

Feel free to put me straight though as Im learning daily on here

 

[NickHardy]

Their silica product is sub par by 100 miles to my 40% MSA.

I bought 1 litre of Butch Pro Mono Silic for the same price ($100) as 100ml the stuff you tipped me too. 0.4ml /liter rather than 0.3ml. Doubled the dose today. Its very good but not as good. It says 3.8%

We are competing with the most insanely talented support army we could imagine. I can learn whatever I need to right here in real time because people here are fucking badasses.

I’m channelling my girls’ inner Shed this weekend. The kind of advanced level reading behind the lines, having the stones to say with conviction that, 2+2 does equal 7 and the temerity to prove it so in battle. Look out for it in a journal near you. This coming Next. Few. Days.

Bad News Bear

I got a wee touch of the mould yesterday. I was gonna try and let it ride. Luckily Farmer mate came by to pick up his kid. He looked, he sniffed. He pointed and sure enough beginnings of mould on everything he pointed at. Deep inside. Caught it so early. Sucks a bit. Meh. Read the leaves he said. I sorta got him. Gonna run through it again tomorrow. Was chopping at the time.

So now my 1000w beast light is free as of Saturday. AC guy is fitting a new one and re doing the ducting “professional style” he promises. I have time to focus. The light juste and an opponent to crush.

So good news for me. Great day.

Bundles of buds and no decision to make on when to swap tents. When I want is the answer.

Look - my plants. So small. So average rates of growth.

Nick

 

[SSgrower]

Btw @NickHardy - this is why I don’t fear trying stuff I’m not a pro at even in a contest - cuz on 420, neither one of us is competing one on one. We are competing with the most insanely talented support army we could imagine. I can learn whatever I need to right here in real time because people here are fucking badasses. So nice try but try another.

I'd be wary of future problems in this contest, I am in Coco, 3 gal. material bags that has taken me 3 1/2 years to get comfortable with. Canna Coco A&B nutrients, Dyno-Myco, mixing Coco Loco and learning to trellis & scrog. Next the mainline bending lessons. We, to our credit, learn or teach this to ourselves with "Forum" help, if we'll take it. Cheers, enjoying the Grow Show here^ SSgrower

 

[Wastei]

Hydro Question

I have two plant with 2 1/2 gallon coco pots atop a five gallon nute reservoir. Both five gallon buckets have a 4” air stone with a dedicated pump. As a result, I have the most amazing field of bubbles and flow in the res I could dream of. And the pump with output level infinite sweep dial is brilliant for controlling the bubbles.

What I’m finding is that a wide field of serious bubbles is keeping the reservoirs PH stable or within the limit I want (5.5 at lowest to 6.0 highest, I prefer to start at 5.5 and let it rise as taught by the ubiquitous and awesome @Rexer) for a LOT longer than anytime before. In previous attempts I thought a five gallon bucket didn’t need a larger air stone so used the real small golf ball sized ones. The difference is gigantic and also seems to keep the roots clean, which is something you must sacrifice to some extent using this method.

My question is, is what I’m seeing in fact what I’m seeing? Any hydro guys out there who could tell me if I’m on the right track here? Thanks in advance for any input!!!

How long is the pH drift and does it ever settle? Excess aeration will draw CO2 out of the solution and raise pH. A pH stable reservoir should optimally only drift a couple of days and then settle. If you can't keep the reservoir stable for many days you might want to try decrease aeration.

Do you change the reservoir out or do you just keep adding more nutrient solution and pH down?

Cheers!

 

[Jon]

Sounds awesome bro! I just messed up a grow from being lazy.. every day my resovoir would drop so I would use pH up every morning before feeding.. my pH up is potassium bicarbonate so I'm guessing the crazy amount of potassium I was using made my root zone unbalanced and caused other deficiencies.. i should have just put a air stone in there to out gas co2 and keep my resovoir stable.

It depends on what nutrients and water you are using I suppose. before with organic salts my resovoir would naturally go up so I used a pump instead of airstone to keep it under control.

Imo airated water is better in all hydro grows and I think it can give you a extra boost in Coco when in veg as they can struggle until established.

A guess to your pearly white roots, stained roots in Coco could be from Suffocating (low oxygen) or from heavy feeding.. either way your

Feel free to put me straight though as Im learning daily on here

That is immensely appreciated, thank you!

 

[Jon]

I bought 1 litre of Butch Pro Mono Silic for the same price ($100) as 100ml the stuff you tipped me too. 0.4ml /liter rather than 0.3ml. Doubled the dose today. Its very good but not as good. It says 3.8%

I’m channelling my girls’ inner Shed this weekend. The kind of advanced level reading behind the lines, having the stones to say with conviction that, 2+2 does equal 7 and the temerity to prove it so in battle. Look out for it in a journal near you. This coming Next. Few. Days.

Bad News Bear

I got a wee touch of the mould yesterday. I was gonna try and let it ride. Luckily Farmer mate came by to pick up his kid. He looked, he sniffed. He pointed and sure enough beginnings of mould on everything he pointed at. Deep inside. Caught it so early. Sucks a bit. Meh. Read the leaves he said. I sorta got him. Gonna run through it again tomorrow. Was chopping at the time.

So now my 1000w beast light is free as of Saturday. AC guy is fitting a new one and re doing the ducting “professional style” he promises. I have time to focus. The light juste and an opponent to crush.

So good news for me. Great day.

Bundles of buds and no decision to make on when to swap tents. When I want is the answer.

Look - my plants. So small. So average rates of growth.

Nick

Wow. First,excellent catch and immediate fix on the mold (we spell it correctly here). Also - who are you kidding? Those plants are in fricking Dixie cups. You have no business having that already in Dixie cups. Your grow for your style is as crazy as mine for mine, and I have eyes and can see this is gonna be a good battle. I’m on my second hour of training this morning pre watering. The attention to detail necessary for what I’m doing is off the charts. Immense workload. And I’d love to be able to convey how physically challenging it is for me to work the three center row plants in a wheelchair when the first row can’t be removed for access temporarily. I’m working my ass off and now I’m glad I am cuz you aren’t fucking around like I thought.