Xlr8's "Flo N Gro" Hydro Multiple Strains 2011

[Xlr8]

looking forward to seeing the results of the multiple topping methods. I do clones so I don't have a chance to UBT them. Might try that with my seedlings that will be come bonsai moms though.

Hi Steve, according to Uncle Ben, you can use UBT on clones -

"To get 4 main colas, let your seedling or cutting (clone) grow to about 5-6 nodes and pinch out (cut) the stem just above the 2nd true node. The node where the cotyledons attach doesn't count. The result will be a redistribution of the auxins and other hormones that normally collect in the tissue of the terminal leader's tip. These ho moans will be redistributed to dormant buds that reside in the nodal axis where the leaf petiole attaches to the "trunk", below the cut. The new foliar output response will be quick (within 24 hrs., see photo below) if you have a healthy growing seedling and will be your future main colas - 4 instead of the usual 1" Uncle Ben

 

[Xlr8]

Nice clean setup, I like what you are doing. Your plants look great! I've been hearing a lot about your line of nutrients lately. I'm anxious to watch this grow finish

4twenty4all -

Blue Planet makes a great line of nutrients from what I can tell so far. I really like how their product is working for veg so far anyway!

 

[Mr. Krip]

XLR8, I just took a closer look at the pics. It does appear that Lucy #2 was UBT'd for TWO colas and Lucy #1 and Skywalker #1 were UBT'd for four colas.

I'm guessing you did the topping at least a couple of days ago? It's a little tough to tell on Lucy #1 cuz at first glance, it there appear to be two full nodes, but above the cotyledons, it looks like the first (lower) leaf set is actually part of the node directly above it, which looks like the two colas formed from the UBT.

But, since your counting on the nodes was off by one, everywhere you thought you were cutting at the 3rd node, would really be the 2nd node and should give you four colas!

 

[Siscokid]

LOL, he said "Ho moans"..

 

[Xlr8]

XLR8, I just took a closer look at the pics. It does appear that Lucy #2 was UBT'd for TWO colas and Lucy #1 and Skywalker #1 were UBT'd for four colas.

I'm guessing you did the topping at least a couple of days ago? It's a little tough to tell on Lucy #1 cuz at first glance, it there appear to be two full nodes, but above the cotyledons, it looks like the first (lower) leaf set is actually part of the node directly above it, which looks like the two colas formed from the UBT.

But, since your counting on the nodes was off by one, everywhere you thought you were cutting at the 3rd node, would really be the 2nd node and should give you four colas!

I think you're right (we'll see!) so I corrected my post above. Nope these pictures were taken minutes after I topped them. Thanks for taking a look Mr. Krip. I'm a topping virgin I guess!

 

[Mr Smith]

Counting on veg, there are two ways. As soon as the plant pops up through the medium or as soon as you put the seedling in the medium veg starts and nutes can be applied and I normally jump straight to 600ppm then up it by 100 a week til I am between 800 to 900ppm. If a new nute is used or your seedling had a problem I stay between 400 and 600ppm then slowly go up from there.
The other way is to wait til the second set of leaves/node shows and those leaves are serated and not round.
With ebb I flood 3 times a day during the veg period and normally wont go higher til I start flowering. Even when I keep mother plants I flood 3 times a day. Since I aint in flower I don't need to flood the mums more but I have flood up to 5 times during the light cycle to boost more growth for better clippings, these mums were very established already. Hope that helps. Flooding during flower is a whole different ball game and has alot more leeway. As soon as I start to flower I imediately jump to 5 flood cycles and let the leaves tell me when to increase. I have flooded up to once a hour and still got good results but ph became a real bitch so rarely do I flood more than 7 times during a light cycle.

Airstones in resevoirs shows me just how green a grower can be lol. The grower forums usually have people who just start to grow or have peeps that have 1 to 3 years under their belt so some of the silly info never goes away. A ebb n flow system gets its air after it drains, thats how it works. Manufactures of ebb systems know this and its why airstones and airpumps is not included in a sytem and unless your using thick hard to mix nutes like the floranova series a recirculation pump is also not needed but for some reason the added pumps do make a grower feel more secure. I run 2 pumps, one to flood and one to drain. 8 years and its never been a problem. I started hydroponics with a megagarden ebb system and still continue to use ebb systems cause I truly believe its one of the easiest ways to grow bud. I experiment alot and grow other ways too but thats because I am that idiot thats always trying to make a better mousetrap. I think I type to much when I chedderize myself. Cheese is basically a very good skunk, I have grown and tried 3 different kinds. The la cheese from reservapravada is great but has extreme different size phenos, the cheese from greenhouse seeds was dissapointing but the bigbudda cheese was one of the best smokes ever. I hope we can talk more in the future but I got to jet, there is a sage plant that needs molesting.

 

[Aaron Quix]

Hey X, great discussion on topping! I find myself with a question or two on this topic. My SSH clones were taken from a mother that was sexually mature, and the nodes are staggered, rather than symetrical. What are your thoughts about topping in this situation?

I'll be topping, or LSTing, to manage height, while my NL re-veg, well, re-veges! Lol. But aside from topping to control height, do you think there could be any benefit to the practice, in regard to training with branches that are alternating? (I don't really think there would be, but its worth talking about huh?)

 

[Goldengoose7]

I tried this FIM method on my Northern Lights and White Rhino seedlings, and I didn't really like the results. Maybe I did it wrong?

I've always had good luck with using the more basic/old school method of topping when the plant is about 25" tall. My BBK #1 was topped in this fashion and I ended up with four beautiful colas that rivaled the single main cola on BBK #2 that wasn't topped. I also got a really solid clone out of that growing tip that is now 35" tall and flowering in my flower room!

Either way you do it, I highly recommend topping versus not topping. My BBK grow showed the difference it can make in yield. Two basically identical plants with one being topped and the other left natural. The topped plant produced nearly one full ounce more dried bud than the untopped sister plant even though the untopped plant was about 4 inches taller.

 

[Xlr8]

Counting on veg, there are two ways. As soon as the plant pops up through the medium or as soon as you put the seedling in the medium veg starts and nutes can be applied and I normally jump straight to 600ppm then up it by 100 a week til I am between 800 to 900ppm. If a new nute is used or your seedling had a problem I stay between 400 and 600ppm then slowly go up from there.
The other way is to wait til the second set of leaves/node shows and those leaves are serated and not round.
With ebb I flood 3 times a day during the veg period and normally wont go higher til I start flowering. Even when I keep mother plants I flood 3 times a day. Since I aint in flower I don't need to flood the mums more but I have flood up to 5 times during the light cycle to boost more growth for better clippings, these mums were very established already. Hope that helps. Flooding during flower is a whole different ball game and has alot more leeway. As soon as I start to flower I imediately jump to 5 flood cycles and let the leaves tell me when to increase. I have flooded up to once a hour and still got good results but ph became a real bitch so rarely do I flood more than 7 times during a light cycle.

Airstones in resevoirs shows me just how green a grower can be lol. The grower forums usually have people who just start to grow or have peeps that have 1 to 3 years under their belt so some of the silly info never goes away. A ebb n flow system gets its air after it drains, thats how it works. Manufactures of ebb systems know this and its why airstones and airpumps is not included in a sytem and unless your using thick hard to mix nutes like the floranova series a recirculation pump is also not needed but for some reason the added pumps do make a grower feel more secure. I run 2 pumps, one to flood and one to drain. 8 years and its never been a problem. I started hydroponics with a megagarden ebb system and still continue to use ebb systems cause I truly believe its one of the easiest ways to grow bud. I experiment alot and grow other ways too but thats because I am that idiot thats always trying to make a better mousetrap. I think I type to much when I chedderize myself. Cheese is basically a very good skunk, I have grown and tried 3 different kinds. The la cheese from reservapravada is great but has extreme different size phenos, the cheese from greenhouse seeds was dissapointing but the bigbudda cheese was one of the best smokes ever. I hope we can talk more in the future but I got to jet, there is a sage plant that needs molesting.

Thanks Mr. Smith!

I appreciate your clarification on veg-time, I've always kinda went with when you put it into the medium, etc. I've also heard after the second set of true leaves, yada yada. I'm going by when I put it into the Flo N Gro, for the record!

I appreciate your thoughts on PPM's and especially flooding periods. I was a little surprised that you only flood 3 times a day during veg - I'm doing twice that. I can obviously scale that down. I can see it being different in flower - that makes a lot of sense. Great advice,

You'd be surprised how often I've been advised to put airstones in the reservoir, including by the hydro store and even the manufacturer suggested it might be a good idea. Heck, made sense to me, as I started as a DWC guy. True story! However, I've seen your results - I trust your opinion, and I nixed the air-stones.

Well, on the recirculating water pump. While it may not be necessary, I worry about "settling" and the plants being whacked with a higher concentration when it gets to that part of the reservoir. Maybe that's nonsense thinking...? It does mean something that you've never done it and never had problems - good to know!

I'm one of those mousetrap guys, too. Hence DIY hydro bucket the Chocolope is in, and my similar plan to do the kitty litter RDWC uncer-current that you're going to spring on us any day now... As soon as the Cheeeeese wears off a little!

So glad to have you tagging along, Mr. Smith.

 

[Xlr8]

Hey X, great discussion on topping! I find myself with a question or two on this topic. My SSH clones were taken from a mother that was sexually mature, and the nodes are staggered, rather than symetrical. What are your thoughts about topping in this situation?

I'll be topping, or LSTing, to manage height, while my NL re-veg, well, re-veges! Lol. But aside from topping to control height, do you think there could be any benefit to the practice, in regard to training with branches that are alternating? (I don't really think there would be, but its worth talking about huh?)

Hi Quix -

I'm such a virgin topper, that I'm going to let someone else weigh-in hopefully, I'm not sure how that works with staggered nodes.

Yes, I think there's a lot of benefit of topping or LST'ing when growing inside even aside from controlling height. An even canopy with multiple tops gives you an opportunity for multiple nice size tops that aren't mold-attracting monsters. Even canopies get more even lighting. Also, the best buds are at the top and getting the most light, let's have a bunch of those!

 

[Xlr8]

I tried this FIM method on my Northern Lights and White Rhino seedlings, and I didn't really like the results. Maybe I did it wrong?

I've always had good luck with using the more basic/old school method of topping when the plant is about 25" tall. My BBK #1 was topped in this fashion and I ended up with four beautiful colas that rivaled the single main cola on BBK #2 that wasn't topped. I also got a really solid clone out of that growing tip that is now 35" tall and flowering in my flower room!

Either way you do it, I highly recommend topping versus not topping. My BBK grow showed the difference it can make in yield. Two basically identical plants with one being topped and the other left natural. The topped plant produced nearly one full ounce more dried bud than the untopped sister plant even though the untopped plant was about 4 inches taller.

Hey there GG7 -

Great thoughts on topping and fimming. I think I missed my fim, (kind of a fim fim?) on the Magic Bud, and may just top it... I'm not sure yet on the FIM for the Skywalker. I just wanted to try for myself, I'm stubborn that way, but I think the UBT will be a great way to go and can see myself leaning toward that in the future. We'll see...

Yes, you got some great nugs off of BBK #1 (and #2!). Great thoughts on the better yield.

Thanks for all the thoughts and sharing that.

 

[Aaron Quix]

Hi Quix -
Yes, I think there's a lot of benefit of topping or LST'ing when growing inside even aside from controlling height. An even canopy with multiple tops gives you an opportunity for multiple nice size tops that aren't mold-attracting monsters. Even canopies get more even lighting. Also, the best buds are at the top and getting the most light, let's have a bunch of those!

Oh for sure brother, I agree there are more pros than cons, to LSTing and topping in general. I guess I was only referring to topping with staggered nodes. I forget sometimes that you haven't "done it all", but only because you are always such a wealth of information, and well spoken.

I really feel that its probably useless to top a plant once she's sexually mature, like mine are, unless its strictly to restrict height.
Topping is also great for taking a nice strong clone, IMHO, but as far as actual training, for the purpose of creating more tops, it seems a pointless practice if the nodes aren't even.... I was just wondering if anyone had heard of a method of topping with staggered nodes, for anything other that cloning or height management....

 

[Xlr8]

Oh for sure brother, I agree there are more pros than cons, to LSTing and topping in general. I guess I was only referring to topping with staggered nodes. I forget sometimes that you haven't "done it all", but only because you are always such a wealth of information, and well spoken.

I really feel that its probably useless to top a plant once she's sexually mature, like mine are, unless its strictly to restrict height.
Topping is also great for taking a nice strong clone, IMHO, but as far as actual training, for the purpose of creating more tops, it seems a pointless practice if the nodes aren't even.... I was just wondering if anyone had heard of a method of topping with staggered nodes, for anything other that cloning or height management....

I've LST'd (out of necessity with the BCNL box I used to have).

Now, to try topping... I'm a big fan of LST, but it's a lot of work, and I'm wanting to see what topping does for me. You have a great question with the staggered nodes and topping. Hope someone can help answer that one!

Sorry if I misunderstood you, I'm a bit medicated at the moment.

 

[4twenty4all]

Not sure I understood what you meant by staggered topping. But, I can tell you for 100% that topping will produce a slightly higher yield; Although, you must manicure and trim up the bottoms of each cola almost 50% so you don't end up with straggly buds. You also can increase that by another 10% if you FIM instead, also bringing up the bottoms of each cola about 2nd or 3rd week of flower. I have tested this and weighed finished products on multiple strains.

 

[Xlr8]

Hey everyone -

Plants still look good after topping experiments. Can't wait to see how the new growth develops.

Thought I'd post an image of the spreadsheet I created to track and plan my nutrients for the Flo N Gro portion of my grow. I printed this and posted it in my grow room and enter actuals by pen, or I'd give you an image with some actuals in it, lol. I see I forgot to add the auto-sum calc's to part of it too. Oh well.

Blue Planet has reviewed the amounts planned for the Grow Micro and Bloom portion of this and signed-off on it so to speak. Thought it might be of use to someone? I will be adding a cal/mag supplement but I am working with BPN on specifics and amounts first (I have 0ppm RO water).

I thought the Blue Planet 3 part (Grow, Micro, Bloom) portion of this might be useful or perhaps just this format itself would spark inspiration in someone...

 

[Goldengoose7]

Hey there GG7 -

Great thoughts on topping and fimming. I think I missed my fim, (kind of a fim fim?) on the Magic Bud, and may just top it... I'm not sure yet on the FIM for the Skywalker. I just wanted to try for myself, I'm stubborn that way, but I think the UBT will be a great way to go and can see myself leaning toward that in the future. We'll see...

Yes, you got some great nugs off of BBK #1 (and #2!). Great thoughts on the better yield.

Thanks for all the thoughts and sharing that.

Thanks Man!

I'm glad that you brought up this topic in your popular journal cause it is something that ALL growers should know about and use to their advantage where possible.

What Quixilvir referred to in his last reply is important too and that is "timing". You need to give the plant enough time to respond to the topping event and grow out those secondary branches which eventually take over as the main colas. I gave BBK 1 about 3.5 weeks to grow out after that top before I put both it and 2 into the flower room and that seemed like just about the right amount of time.

I topped BBK 1's growing tip only about 2 weeks before it started flowering naturally outside and that was not enough time. Now I've got a cluster of colas around the point where the original top was, but they only grew out about 6 inches from where they started, so nothing like what you get with a 3-4 week growing out period.

I definitely learned my lesson about the natural flowering cycle start this season! I got burned on several fronts by thinking I had a few more weeks before the plants transitioned outside. Now I know that for my location at least, I run out of natural veg around the last week of July into early August depending on the strain.

 

[OldMedMan]

Hi Buddy

Here's Columbian Gold that I did nothing but FIMing to her. Works.

 

[Xlr8]

Not sure I understood what you meant by staggered topping. But, I can tell you for 100% that topping will produce a slightly higher yield; Although, you must manicure and trim up the bottoms of each cola almost 50% so you don't end up with straggly buds. You also can increase that by another 10% if you FIM instead, also bringing up the bottoms of each cola about 2nd or 3rd week of flower. I have tested this and weighed finished products on multiple strains.

Oh, I believe Quix was wondering (now so am I) what sort of behavior a sexually mature clone (staggered nodes instead of alternating) would exhibit if it were topped. If there's anything different behavior-wise of an alternating node/sexually mature cutting if it were topped. I'm a bit new to topping (have always LST'd) so I couldn't answer that one.

Thanks for the advice on trimming/manicuring, and topping in general. I appreciate you sharing your experience a lot.

 

[SteveHman]

Oh, I believe Quix was wondering (now so am I) what sort of behavior a sexually mature clone (staggered nodes instead of alternating) would exhibit if it were topped. If there's anything different behavior-wise of an alternating node/sexually mature cutting if it were topped. I'm a bit new to topping (have always LST'd) so I couldn't answer that one.

Thanks for the advice on trimming/manicuring, and topping in general. I appreciate you sharing your experience a lot.

My current Grow 5.0 is with mature clones that were topped/FIM'ed in the cloner, with the with the nodes being staggered. I did not document the results, but will on the next grow (since that is what I do, clone-top-bloom).

I would say that from my current grow, it works on mature clones. I would say to top/FIM them as early as possible to keep them bushy until they stretch.

 

[Xlr8]

Thanks Man!

I'm glad that you brought up this topic in your popular journal cause it is something that ALL growers should know about and use to their advantage where possible.

What Quixilvir referred to in his last reply is important too and that is "timing". You need to give the plant enough time to respond to the topping event and grow out those secondary branches which eventually take over as the main colas. I gave BBK 1 about 3.5 weeks to grow out after that top before I put both it and 2 into the flower room and that seemed like just about the right amount of time.

I topped BBK 1's growing tip only about 2 weeks before it started flowering naturally outside and that was not enough time. Now I've got a cluster of colas around the point where the original top was, but they only grew out about 6 inches from where they started, so nothing like what you get with a 3-4 week growing out period.

I definitely learned my lesson about the natural flowering cycle start this season! I got burned on several fronts by thinking I had a few more weeks before the plants transitioned outside. Now I know that for my location at least, I run out of natural veg around the last week of July into early August depending on the strain.

Thanks for the advice GG7, I appreciate your thoughts on this. In fact, I'm extremely curious on how long I should wait indoors with height being an issue. Should I look at it like I would a non-topped plant, height-wise before flowering? In other words, if I would have waited until the plant was vegged at 18" before flowering an "untopped" plant, should that still be my height consideration for a topped plant --- 18" in this hypothetical?

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences on this. My journal is moving along pretty quickly, but it's because of all the incredible knowledge and experience people like you are sharing here, and I appreciate that a ton!