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Gee64
Well-Known Member
It was really weird seeing preflowers on those.
The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It
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johnehazeharvester
Well-Known Member
Thanks just watch the whole thing. Check out the movie Kiss The Ground on Netflix. Entertaining documentary, although I think they do use no till methods To capture carbon.
I enjoyed that too.
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- #664
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I've seen it. It's entertaining.
The unfortunate thing about knowledge and intelligence is when no one else is interested in the same thing
Meristematic tissue/cells are undifferentiated (unprogrammed for @Gee64) they need a hormone/signal to begin differentiating. However, these cells are at the tips of your roots and shoots, that’s where they reside and get their signals sent to. There’s also cells in the internodes, and between the phloem and xylem.. You can see where they’re hanging out and why.
So with that, when we top, we most definitely are legitimately obliterating the cells and tissue from the plant. This means that when the plant “hormone shifts” it’s doing much more than just shifting. It’s either losing those apical meristem cells altogether, and the nodal meristem cells take over hence the lateral growth, or it’s regenerating new meristem cells. In the time it takes the plant to shift after topping I’m not willing to believe it’s a simple hormone shift. I think we have obliterated the apical meristem cells for the plants entire life.
I don’t like this at all, and it’s very counterintuitive to the natural organic path I’m trying to put it on. This seems like it’s automatically preventing our plants from reaching their genetic potential. Regardless of what our eyes see or what the yield is, removing these cells most certainly must have inflicted some level of trauma and damage to the plants potential.
This appears whacked, I couldn’t add an entry above the paste to say Hey Keffka drop some intel to help me understand better for an opening line and I’m too zonked to start over… but more specifically this part below
personally I cant spell science, don’t know shite about cells either…you guys are in a whole ‘nother league, I should prolly take my water wings and head back to the kiddy pool…
(excluding whorrled phyllotaxy of course)… when starting from seed- we start with even pairs of nodes…Right? Then as plant gets mature it will switch over to alternating nodes…right? The switch from even node pairs to alternating node pairs happens often around- even node pair #5 or 6 but it can go in either direction. My Wedding Cake from seed went 9 even node pairs before alternating.
1) if you clone a top having symmetrical nodes, then the clone will have symmetrical nodes until it matures enough for alternating nodes…
2) if you clone from lowers having symmetrical nodes then the clones will start symmetrical and as they reach maturity they will switch to alternating nodes
3) if you clone a top having alternating nodes, then the clone will have alternating nodes
imho… it doesn’t matter if the clone mother was topped or not… all 3 clones above are still driven by apical dominance. Cream rises / sludge sinks… every limb on the clone that came from a topped mother still wants to be the Mac Daddy. If apical dominance was obliterated seems it would display preference for horizontal growth like a vine.
Don’t care if I’m right or wrong - I’m here to LEARN!!! break it down for me please sir!
You’re on track! You’ve got the idea of it down but I’ll explain it a bit. Plants are filled with these cells at the tips of their roots, the tips of their shoots, and in their main stem. These cells that are just hanging out have no instructions and no plan. They’re just chilling. When they’re just chilling they can divide into more just chilling cells endlessly. These are called undifferentiated. They don’t have a job yet. When they don’t have a job they can reproduce endlessly (there’s room for a joke here I believe lol). They also have the ability to turn into ANY part of the plant that the plant needs/wants them to, they just need a signal.
The plant will send a hormone/signal to the cells either in the roots or the shoots telling the cells “hey I need 100 of you to start turning into roots” or “hey I need 100 of you to start turning into a branch”. Once the cells get their signal they start turning into whatever the plant has told them to turn into. This is called differentiating. They lose their ability to reproduce endlessly when this happens, however they become whatever part of the plant the plant says it’s needed. They trade off endless reproduction for actual purpose.
The ones that are hanging out in the main stem can be found in a few places. Typically at the point where the plant crosses from above ground to below ground. Also some like to hang around the nodes. However the majority are right at the root tip, and right at the shoot tip, and if the plant isn’t topped, right at the tip of the main stem.
So when you clone you’re getting a handful of the cells from the shoot tip and a few from the main stem as well. It only takes a handful of undifferentiated cells to start reproducing, and remember, every single one of these cells can turn into any part of the plant, as long as it’s given a hormone signal from the plant. This is what’s happening when you’re cloning. The cells you took with you, are beginning to reproduce according to the plant they just came from. They still have a bit of the hormone/game plan from the plant they came off of. Then they make their way to wherever the new plant tells them to go once it’s established. It is these cells that are building the parts of our plants.
This is why cloning works. The cells in your cloned plant are the same exact cells from the mother plant.
What I was waxing about was in regard to topping the plant. Since these cells hang out in these tips, when we top, we obliterate these cells. The plant can make more, or rather, the undifferentiated in other places can reproduce and send more through the plant. However, we’ve still lost a considerable amount of them.
Topping has been explained as just a hormone shift occurring, I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I think we’ve obliterated an entire group of cells, and have forced the plant to bring them in from other places.
I see a bit of the evidence of this in the difference between topping your plant and using @InTheShed LST method to break apical dominance. When topping the plant it just stops growing out of the main stem and starts pushing out the next highest node. When using Sheds technique, the plant continues to grow from its main stem but the rest of the plant begins growing out further than it would otherwise. Sheds method is a hormone shift. Topping is obliterating the cells.
This would explain why topping an auto is such a risky move. If it was as simple as a hormone shift it wouldn’t be so detrimental.
Now I can’t prove this on a cellular level, yet, but anecdotally and per the observations I made in the differences, it seems like this is what is occurring.
Those are beautiful fishboney roots there GEE!
Here is an interesting tidbit that I forgot to include when I dissected one of the swicky solo cups to check root formation.
You can see by the plants looks that the swicking was overwatering the sproutling.
When I pulled out the rootball it was really wet. Not dripping but almost, pretty much holding as much water as possibly without actually dripping, so I thought, "let's wring it out and see just how much water is in there."
I held it over a bowl and squeezed out every drop I could. None spilled, the bowl caught it all.
This is all I got in a regular sized cereal bowl. I thought there would be more than 2 tablespoons.
The soil and roots retained the rest. The rootball was heavy, it simply would not give up any more water.
You can see by the nice white roots that the plant was happy. No signs of root rot but serious displays of heavy water filled leaves.
Nice! This is what I watch when stretch turns into flower!
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Gee64
Well-Known Member
OK this is going to be a long post so grab a coffee, but I promise I will put it in plain english.
Plants can reproduce cells very quickly. It only takes a freshly cut clone 5-10 days to make roots appear. That means the trigger happened way before the 5-10 days.
It had to multiply the cells in the tip, then push them down to where the root will grow, then grow the root.
Its the signal triggering that causes grief. If your soil is too nutritious the plant doesn't feel hungry as nutes seep in thru the cut stem so no triggering.
If the soil is too wet water seeps in with food so no triggering.
You need a foodless environment with steamy yet not soaking wet moisture levels, wet air but no actual water, and now the plant knows moisture and food are right there but can't quite reach it so a trigger occurs, cells move, a root pops, and the food gets reached.
Its the same for new tips. Top a plant and watch the 2 branches come out. The undifferentiated cells are already in the tips, the topping is the trigger. They multiply and grow.
Hormone shift is an inaccurate description really. The top is gone so the hormones in it only shift to the worm bin. The new growth hormones that are always being produced in any growth tip start to accelerate at the 2 new tips because the old one is gone. Its more of a production shift triggered by a hormonal signal.
The trigger is the need for more photosynthesis.
Every topping definitely slows the plant for a day or 2 but you are in veg so you have recovery time.
The better your plant is at handling stress, which is mainly diet and environment, the faster the recovery.
The trigger happens the split second the triggering event occurs.
You can root a clone as fast as you can grow a new top after topping. You saw it in my clone demo, 13 days from cut to 15" roots. Thats because I used RO water. No nutes in it triggers the hungry plant. IMMEDIATELY.
You just need health and a trigger. I never lost a leaf. Not bragging here, just an example of being prepared for whats coming.
Topping seems easier than cloning because the act of topping IS the trigger. If you cut a clone into a glass of water it will live for months without rooting if the water has normal cal and mag levels in it. No hunger trigger.
Where topping and air-pruning roots changes, is in distribution. The plant overall can only move resources as fast as vpd, photosynthesis, and the supply chain will allow, so topping produces 2 tops but the stem they are on can't handle a doubling of resources so the 2 new tops are both smaller than the original.
Air pruning produces twice the number of root tips, but smaller and feathery.
Quite often 9 or 11 blade leaves turn into 5 or 7 prongs above the topping on the new growth. Thats resource allocation reaching its limits.
Thats why I manifold. The young plant is in heavy veg mode and resources and health are abundant.
If you make your toppings before the nodes stagger, the plant is still in growth mode, not reproductive mode, and the stem/stalk system grows very fat very quickly opening great flow to the new tops.
If you top after nodes start to alternate you get less robust tips.
The best example is to grow from seed and clone, side by side. The young plant from seed will grow a bigger stalk below the topping point than a topped sexually mature clone will.
We strive for airy feathery feeder roots but shy away from topping. They are the same process except one was done by us, and one from nature.
That majority of undifferentiated cells that goes when you top the main will quickly be reproduced, but it goes to where the signalling occurs. Thats to to 2 branchlets below the topping, but also to every top now in the light with the main top gone. Bright healthy light triggers lower nodes to branch as well.
I know I harp a lot about calcium and fish ferts, but if calcium is correct, the signalling happens quickly. Calcium is the wiring between cells to carry the signal to start the hormone shift.
If you have been feeding fish ferts the whole time then stress is very low and the recovery is robust.
Topping is pointless if the plant can't recover properly.
You guys saw how badly I butchered that plant, but its stump was thick. It would have flowered huge, with a bigger yield than if I left it untopped.
The rootball to foliage ratio was huge, and the pipelines to the tops were large diameter. Hence the term "Manifolding".
But it stalled for a solid week, which is a long time in my environment, however a lifetime of fish ferts let it handle the massive onslaught of violent stress that would have ruined many plants, as I removed about 75% of the plant, and in a week it was recovered again.
And heres the best part... all those undifferentiated cells Keff is worried about didn't go to waste. Look how robust those clones are.
That didn't happen by accident. I grew this plant with one purpose in mind, to cut clones. I needed those tops big and full of undifferentiated cells.
It didn't take long for the plant to pull them from the tips and get them to where roots were needed, multiplying them along the way.
If you aren't properly prepared for your next move it gets ugly fast, time drags out, and pots run dry.
The more times you top, the bigger the pot you need. An untopped plant can get away with a smaller pot. A clone can flower in a 2gal quite nicely if you can root it quickly. A manifolded plant from seed needs at least 6 gallons of soil if you are well practiced, and make zero mistakes or delays. 7 gallons gets easier. 10 gallons gives you an extra month to do or recover from anything you try.
Its why I put huge attention to detail at every transplant, clone cutting, when to start flowering, pot size, etc... You never know what tomorrow holds, so be ready for it, and your plant only lives for 100-150 days, so you can't waste any.
A plant should never go hungry, that too triggers hormonal events, and suicide is one of them.
A hungry plant calls to pests to cull it so its genetics can live on from a stronger sister.
Thats why aphids will destroy 2 tomatoes in your garden but leave the other 6 untouched.
The 2 called the aphids, they didn't just happen to be in the aphids path.
Plants can reproduce cells very quickly. It only takes a freshly cut clone 5-10 days to make roots appear. That means the trigger happened way before the 5-10 days.
It had to multiply the cells in the tip, then push them down to where the root will grow, then grow the root.
Its the signal triggering that causes grief. If your soil is too nutritious the plant doesn't feel hungry as nutes seep in thru the cut stem so no triggering.
If the soil is too wet water seeps in with food so no triggering.
You need a foodless environment with steamy yet not soaking wet moisture levels, wet air but no actual water, and now the plant knows moisture and food are right there but can't quite reach it so a trigger occurs, cells move, a root pops, and the food gets reached.
Its the same for new tips. Top a plant and watch the 2 branches come out. The undifferentiated cells are already in the tips, the topping is the trigger. They multiply and grow.
Hormone shift is an inaccurate description really. The top is gone so the hormones in it only shift to the worm bin. The new growth hormones that are always being produced in any growth tip start to accelerate at the 2 new tips because the old one is gone. Its more of a production shift triggered by a hormonal signal.
The trigger is the need for more photosynthesis.
Every topping definitely slows the plant for a day or 2 but you are in veg so you have recovery time.
The better your plant is at handling stress, which is mainly diet and environment, the faster the recovery.
The trigger happens the split second the triggering event occurs.
You can root a clone as fast as you can grow a new top after topping. You saw it in my clone demo, 13 days from cut to 15" roots. Thats because I used RO water. No nutes in it triggers the hungry plant. IMMEDIATELY.
You just need health and a trigger. I never lost a leaf. Not bragging here, just an example of being prepared for whats coming.
Topping seems easier than cloning because the act of topping IS the trigger. If you cut a clone into a glass of water it will live for months without rooting if the water has normal cal and mag levels in it. No hunger trigger.
Where topping and air-pruning roots changes, is in distribution. The plant overall can only move resources as fast as vpd, photosynthesis, and the supply chain will allow, so topping produces 2 tops but the stem they are on can't handle a doubling of resources so the 2 new tops are both smaller than the original.
Air pruning produces twice the number of root tips, but smaller and feathery.
Quite often 9 or 11 blade leaves turn into 5 or 7 prongs above the topping on the new growth. Thats resource allocation reaching its limits.
Thats why I manifold. The young plant is in heavy veg mode and resources and health are abundant.
If you make your toppings before the nodes stagger, the plant is still in growth mode, not reproductive mode, and the stem/stalk system grows very fat very quickly opening great flow to the new tops.
If you top after nodes start to alternate you get less robust tips.
The best example is to grow from seed and clone, side by side. The young plant from seed will grow a bigger stalk below the topping point than a topped sexually mature clone will.
We strive for airy feathery feeder roots but shy away from topping. They are the same process except one was done by us, and one from nature.
That majority of undifferentiated cells that goes when you top the main will quickly be reproduced, but it goes to where the signalling occurs. Thats to to 2 branchlets below the topping, but also to every top now in the light with the main top gone. Bright healthy light triggers lower nodes to branch as well.
I know I harp a lot about calcium and fish ferts, but if calcium is correct, the signalling happens quickly. Calcium is the wiring between cells to carry the signal to start the hormone shift.
If you have been feeding fish ferts the whole time then stress is very low and the recovery is robust.
Topping is pointless if the plant can't recover properly.
You guys saw how badly I butchered that plant, but its stump was thick. It would have flowered huge, with a bigger yield than if I left it untopped.
The rootball to foliage ratio was huge, and the pipelines to the tops were large diameter. Hence the term "Manifolding".
But it stalled for a solid week, which is a long time in my environment, however a lifetime of fish ferts let it handle the massive onslaught of violent stress that would have ruined many plants, as I removed about 75% of the plant, and in a week it was recovered again.
And heres the best part... all those undifferentiated cells Keff is worried about didn't go to waste. Look how robust those clones are.
That didn't happen by accident. I grew this plant with one purpose in mind, to cut clones. I needed those tops big and full of undifferentiated cells.
It didn't take long for the plant to pull them from the tips and get them to where roots were needed, multiplying them along the way.
If you aren't properly prepared for your next move it gets ugly fast, time drags out, and pots run dry.
The more times you top, the bigger the pot you need. An untopped plant can get away with a smaller pot. A clone can flower in a 2gal quite nicely if you can root it quickly. A manifolded plant from seed needs at least 6 gallons of soil if you are well practiced, and make zero mistakes or delays. 7 gallons gets easier. 10 gallons gives you an extra month to do or recover from anything you try.
Its why I put huge attention to detail at every transplant, clone cutting, when to start flowering, pot size, etc... You never know what tomorrow holds, so be ready for it, and your plant only lives for 100-150 days, so you can't waste any.
A plant should never go hungry, that too triggers hormonal events, and suicide is one of them.
A hungry plant calls to pests to cull it so its genetics can live on from a stronger sister.
Thats why aphids will destroy 2 tomatoes in your garden but leave the other 6 untouched.
The 2 called the aphids, they didn't just happen to be in the aphids path.
BuzzzD
Well-Known Member
It's not nice to tease plants!!! Well, maybe just this once.
But seriously, thanks for that explanation.
johnehazeharvester
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to see the difference between someone who topped their plant and low stress trained and just let the plant grow. I noticed growth stopped for nearly a week when I topped. I suspect with a lot of topping and low stress training the veg will increase for a few weeks or a month. The final result may actually be more, but you are using up a whole another month of time and electricity, etc. Is there actually a benefit of grams of product/Per watt of light used? I wonder?
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Gee64
Well-Known Member
The younger the plant is, the faster the recovery. Topping staggered nodes takes a longer recovery time as you are signalling a veg move in a flower-prepped tip.
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- #673
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I try to have all topping finished before preflower unless I'm cutting clones.
Then I like the bottoms of the clone unstaggered, but the top staggered.
The unstaggered bottom branches grow longer faster than staggered ones above.
Then I like the bottoms of the clone unstaggered, but the top staggered.
The unstaggered bottom branches grow longer faster than staggered ones above.
johnehazeharvester
Well-Known Member
Damn. Will there be a test to follow? All kidding aside, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge.
johnehazeharvester
Well-Known Member
I read this in your post. When I get home tonight I will have to see if my nodes are staggered. I thought I paid attention to my plants. Clearly not close enough.
johnehazeharvester
Well-Known Member
The devil is always in the details. Thanks for including these.
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Gee64
Well-Known Member
You only get 1 shot at this from seed per seed.
Then my suspicion is correct. Interesting. It seems like a great deal of general information out there is half right. They understand something is occurring, just not exactly what, and we both know that’s not acceptable to me
This may be due to your word choice but you said hormones are constantly growing in the tips. That doesn’t sound right to me. I thought the plant produces the hormones it needs as it needs them then sends them. For some reason I have this image that the hormones are produced right around the ground line between above and below ground.
Am I misunderstanding the process or is it a lost in translation moment?
Also just to add a little more information on this topic. These cells are what our plants are made of. Just like us being made of trillions of little cells all working together. The nutrients that we provide to our environments/plants are used by the plant to create these cells and work the machinery inside the plant. Like Gee said about calcium basically being the wiring. For instance potassium is used in transpiration. It is used by the plant to open and close the stomata. This is why people who grow in really dry environments see a lot of need for K. The plant is breathing so hard and fast it’s using increased amounts of K. With such an important job it’s not surprising K is a macronutrient
Teaming with nutrients is a wonderful book to check out on this topic. It goes into pretty thorough detail about each of the 17 required nutrients we use as gardeners in a plain speak way with examples and images
Here’s a typical plant cell so people have an idea of what we’re talking about. I’m extremely excited for the progress being made in Electron cryotomography. This will allow us to actually see with our own eyes inside of these cells instead of having to use visualizations and artwork
Ok I was right and wrong about the hormones. There’s multiple types that occur in multiple places at once but the ones responsible for root and shoot growth are synthesized in the areas they’re responsible for. So this means topping also deletes hormones. Just like with damaged leaves, I find it difficult to willingly remove stuff the plant has expended energy and resources on. Not sure what that’s about, probably some weird childhood memory I’ve locked up
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