The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

Let's talk spikes vs. regular and periodic topdressings, assuming equal amounts over the course of the grow. Is one appreciably better than the other and, if so, by how much, 10-20%, 40-50%?

Spikes go most of the way to the bottom so more roots have access to the nutes although the top roots are more the feeder roots.

Spikes are a much denser nutrient bank so maybe if there are dramatically uneven calls on the nutrients like if maybe the plant uses 50% of the K it'll use in flower in say the 2nd or 3rd week then spikes would be more available, but other than that it would seem it wouldn't matter all that much.

It's too late for me to add spikes to the first NetPot SIP and that one doesn't have global P, but I can (and will) add it via top dressings and teas.

So, how close an approximation will I get with those two approaches vs building it into either the soil mix or with spikes?
 
Azimuth said:
Let's talk spikes vs. regular and periodic topdressings, assuming equal amounts over the course of the grow. Is one appreciably better than the other and, if so, by how much, 10-20%, 40-50%?

Spikes go most of the way to the bottom so more roots have access to the nutes although the top roots are more the feeder roots.

Spikes are a much denser nutrient bank so maybe if there are dramatically uneven calls on the nutrients like if maybe the plant uses 50% of the K it'll use in flower in say the 2nd or 3rd week then spikes would be more available, but other than that it would seem it wouldn't matter all that much.

It's too late for me to add spikes to the first NetPot SIP and that one doesn't have global P, but I can (and will) add it via top dressings and teas.

So, how close an approximation will I get with those two approaches vs building it into either the soil mix or with spikes?
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Plants run on microbes and math. Everything a microbe eats turns into plant food, so input=output. So assuming your overall spike volume is equal to your overall top dressing, the end result would be almost, if not identical. And by top dressing I don't mean EWC, I mean spike material. Use EWC as well.

I prefer food in the soil vs food on the soil so if I was only given 1 cup of spike/top dress mix for the entire grow I would put it in as spikes. Partly for simplicity, and partly (mostly) because roots will quite often, at least in cloth bags, form a cylinder around each spike of feeder roots within the main featherduster rootball and it greatly increases the amount of roots in the pot. I like roots.

Others would top dress it because thats what they are familiar with or prefer.

Either works well. Thats why I use both.

I use the exact same thing in my spikes as I do in my topdressing and I like it to match my soil mix ammendments. Balance, it's key. Out of balance can cause issues. Think Mulders Chart.

Normally in Rev's soil I put all my ammendments in a bucket all measured out, minus the calciums, then dump it into the tote as I mix it. I make extra ammendment mix and keep it for spikes and topdressing.

Gaia Power Bloom is very similar to Rev's so this grow I used Gaia instead for spikes and for topdressing in flower. It's fun to try different things.

So to answer your question, it doesn't really matter, and both is best. I always use spikes and more often than not use top dressing.

I look at spikes as fortification and top dressing as routine maintenance.

I'm not sure about spikes in a SIP tho. If I built a SIP I would spike and topdress just to see.

I usually spike to about 1 inch from the pot bottom.

As for an approximation, then again if equal amounts were used on 2 clones in a side by side, one spiked and one topdressed, I would put my money on the spikes as it's in the soil longer for better decomposition, and you will get better roots.

As for how much better, I would guess noticeably better, so on a guess, 20%?

It really depends on if all the top dressing gets eaten before harvest or not.

The spikes always get fully eaten.

So math wins. 20% is just a guess tho.

I've never tried comparing but in the early days I only top dressed and when I started spiking it upped my game, and when I started spiking with top dressing mix it really came around, the grows started to go really smooth. Everything switched to autopilot.
 
LC-18 and Miss Sticky - Day 23's and 14.

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All are happy and tomorrow or the next day topping to 8 mains will happen, then plant yoga begins. They look lost in those big pots. Hopefully not for long, 5 weeks til flower begins.

I need to re-skin my flood table, it's pretty much dry. Hopefully tomorrow.

RVDV Clones - Day 4 in Soil.

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#1.

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#2.

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#3.

They have all grown noticeably in 3 days since last measurement.
 
Gee64 said:
I dust the hole with myco, I then poke a hole in the bottom of the solo hole, add 1/3 of a half teaspoon of SRP, spray it, and cover it.
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I just went through the spike process again. Should I try some spikes with my plants this time, I wonder. What is SRP?
 
Gee64 said:
Normally in Rev's soil I put all my ammendments in a bucket all measured out, minus the calciums, then dump it into the tote as I mix it. I make extra ammendment mix and keep it for spikes and topdressing.
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And why minus the calciums?

Gee64 said:
I'm not sure about spikes in a SIP tho. If I built a SIP I would spike and topdress just to see.
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Why would you think there might be a difference?
 
Gee64 said:
I've never tried comparing but in the early days I only top dressed and when I started spiking it upped my game, and when I started spiking with top dressing mix it really came around, the grows started to go really smooth. Everything switched to autopilot.
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Ok, great. A few months ago I made up a jar of most of my various inputs, all in equal amounts, and feed that as a top dressing every week at 1 teaspoon per gallon, plus 3-4 teaspoons per gallon of castings, and then mist the combination in. That seems to be going quite well.

No real thought behind the blend, more of a kitchen sink approach, but after re-reading the old TLO book again I think I'll have a closer look at inputs and ratios.
 
Carmen Ray said:
I just went through the spike process again. Should I try some spikes with my plants this time, I wonder. What is SRP?
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SRP is soft rock phosphate. It's a high P rock dust that contains a fair amount of calcium too. Also trace minerals. It's fantastic stuff.

It is dense P in a very available form so you don't need much. I use 1/3 cup per 20 gallons of soil mix.

If you hide a dusting of it in the seedling cup or clone pot (and I mean a dusting, like an eigth of a teaspoon or even less) then the myco will find it and immediately start moving plant exudates onto it, coaxing a root to it and bribing microbes to mine it.

P is hard to mine as it's a rock, not a meal, so special microbes do the job. The sooner you can establish P miners in a plant's life the better the entire life of a plant.

There is a product called Mammoth P. I'm not recommending you run out and buy it, but if you research how it works by reading their product info you get the idea.

You can propogate those microbes in your pot without purchasing the Mammoth P. They are everywhere, you just need to boost their populations to mine the P, and that takes a bit of time, so start early but never overdo it. Slow and steady is the way.

Then when you harvest, those microbes don't die, they go dormant. This is how recycled soil gets better. Your myco and microbes that spent an entire 1st grow figuring things out and populating to proper function and balance get carried into the rebuild, come out of dormancy, and pick right up where they left off. It's referred to as innoculation.

If you really want to get top notch, you can use a specific tub of soil only for a certain strain, like I used to do with Durban, and it becomes specialty soil perfected for that strain. Each strain likes slightly different things from the soil, so using it's used soil to rebuild for the next run really streamlines the efficiency and speed of establishing your soil to your plant and it's needs.

The down side is space. I had tubs everywhere, so I stopped doing it. I actually also enjoy 1st run soil as it's full of surprises and if you get a good crop you really earned it.

3rd or 4th run soil is pretty much auto-growing. You get spectacular results, but it is so maintenance free I find I get disconnected from the grow and I get lazy. I know, 1st world problems right🤣.

But we all grow for free-ish weed and for the hobby. I enjoy mixing a new batch of soil and then seeing what it does.

So spikes.... I really like spikes. They made my grows instantly better.

The thing to remember about spikes is that the roots need to find the spikes on their own, so when you uppot you add the spikes out in the outer area of fresh soil.

Never add spikes to a pot that is rooted in, it will cause issues if your spike material gets dumped onto bare roots, the roots need to find the spikes on their own. I use 4 spikes per flowering pot. The microbes in the soil start processing the spikes into plant food before the roots find it.

The small pots I flowered out with the RVDV clones had no spikes. They were a really tough run.

Myco also mines P and does it really well. Myco is actually the key component to having P become available to the plant from the soil.

Myco is like a company that specializes in microbe management, and takes direct orders from the plant for nutrients needed, and also directs roots to those nutrients in the pot. Myco needs carbon.

This is where a lot of grows get sluggish. This is also where balance comes in.

A 10:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio in the soil will barely keep myco alive. A 20:1 C:N ratio will allow myco to become robust and also be able to produce myco spores to become perpetual. A 30:1 ratio and myco gets extremely robust and your grow is crazy good with excellent product and brix shoot thru the roof.

Oddly enough, healthy balanced compost after it is fully finished, so perfect compost, is 30:1.

So too much nitrogen on the ratio messes with myco. Calcium helps here.

If Ca gets low, magnesium takes over as your main electrolyte but also locks up nitrogen, so nitrogen can't get used, it becomes locked out. It's still in the pot tho so it raises the nitrogen half of the C:N ratio.

Add calmag or dolo-water and magnesium gets tamed, the nitrogen gets released and burned off, and the C:N ratio flips back to lower on the N side, thus higher on the C side, and myco excels again. The plant also greens up because N is once again available.

N is in the air, 78% of air is N, so if Ca is low Mg will just keep locking up more and more N. Mg will lock up 1 molecule of N for every excess molecule of Mg in the Ca:Mg ratio. This is how calmag saves plants. And it works on contact as it's an electrical thing. It neutralizes Mg's static cling that loves to stick to N. N is Mg's 1st choice to cling to.

Sorry, I got off track, but it's all tied together with P. You need balance.

Too much SRP can become toxic, so be careful with it, but in moderation it's fantastic.

P won't leach so adding a bit extra is a bad idea because it stays where you put it, and excess builds up as you recycle.

Plants don't actually need that much P, but it needs to be available every day of the plant's life, and because it turns into ATP, which is the actual energy that powers cells in microbes, plants, and people, as plants grow and contain more cells today than they did yesterday, more P for ATP is needed today to power those cells than what was needed yesterday.

So P needs to be available in the soil at all times but not in excess.

I make sure I always have SRP in stock.

ATP is Adenosine triphosphate, it's what P gets turned into and cells store it to use as fuel when needed, so low P translates into low energy. A bit of SRP or fossilized bat guano ensures you have it. I use both.

So in a nutshell....Calcium sets the proper Ca:Mg ratio to set the proper C:N ratio to let myco become healthy enough to mine P properly to power the plant.

☝️That right there is really good to understand. It's what compost does, and it's why compost should be 2/3 browns and 1/3 greens in the pile. The same for your worm farm.
 
Azimuth said:
And why minus the calciums?
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I add them to the raw soil a couple weeks in advance to build tilth before starting the cooking. The golden rule, always add Ca 1st.
Azimuth said:
Why would you think there might be a difference?
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The spikes may get soggy and pollute your reservoir.
 
Azimuth said:
Ok, great. A couple of months ago I made up a jar of most of my various inputs, all in equal amounts, and feed that as a top dressing every week at 1 teaspoon per gallon, plus 3-4 teaspoons per gallon of castings, and then mist the combination in well. That seems to be going quite well.

No real thought behind the blend, more of a kitchen sink approach, but after re-reading the old TLO book again I think I'll have a closer look at inputs and ratios.
Click to expand...
Use the Rev's ratios combined with the spreadsheet and collect all your ammendments minus raw calciums in a bucket. Thats your spikes and topdressings.

You want it to be more of what you cooked in and in the same ratio. That way when you recycle your balance is maintained.
 
A spike is still a spike in horizontal. What about the area where the water table perch meets the dense lower and more fluffy soil upper section of pots? You kind of know where it will be when making up a pot. How about laying spikes down and covering it with soil? Earthbox SIP's do this with food and dolomite lime.
 
Carmen, I have an exercise for you, it's really easy and takes less than 5 minutes if you are up for it. It's an eye-opener and you are in perfect position to demo it if you want to. Others too if you are in position for it.

If you still have the rootballs from your recent harvest in the pots, stick your water stick into the pots and see what it reads. If they are dry then carefully and slowly water them until you get a perfect dead-center green zone reading.

If they are wetter than the green zone let them dry down and daily probe them until the water content is perfect, or close to perfect. Then dig out some soil and squeeze test it. Do any drips come out?

Now you truly know how wet, or more to the point how unwet perfect is. The moisture is in there but it's absorbed into the carbon, not laying in puddles choking out oxygen.

The roots will grow into the carbon to get it, they are supoosed to. This is how wet/dry cycles promote root growth. You hydrate the carbon and the roots chase it into the carbon, then the carbon turns into humate and your root is directly linked to the soils CEC.

Lift the pot a bit 2 or 3 times, learn that pot weight. Get used to it.

Then go lift a dry pot, then a heavy wet one.
 
StoneOtter said:
A spike is still a spike in horizontal. What about the area where the water table perch meets the dense lower and more fluffy soil upper section of pots? You kind of know where it will be when making up a pot. How about laying spikes down and covering it with soil? Earthbox SIP's do this with food and dolomite lime.
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That makes total SIP sense👍👊. Thanks Stone, great tip!
 
Gee64 said:
I have to go fix peoples shit today but if you need me I will be around, it just may take awhile, gonna be a busy day.
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Hey, we got shit that needs fixing too! Priorities man, priorities. :rolleyes:




:laughtwo:
 
Gee64 said:
Use the Rev's ratios combined with the spreadsheet and collect all your ammendments minus raw calciums in a bucket. Thats your spikes and topdressings.

You want it to be more of what you cooked in and in the same ratio. That way when you recycle your balance is maintained.
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Seems like I need an 'amendments section' for my spreadsheet.
 
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