The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Gee64]

That's a good idea. The higher numbers are with lights out obv.

I'll keep an eye out for water use.

So, no issue with the larger delta between leaf and air temps? I figured keeping the leaves closer to what is considered ideal temps would be better than trying to match the air temps minus a couple of degrees.

It is, the 2 degree spread is for under ideal conditions.

76F room temp, 74F leaf temp and 48% RH, all very commonly recommended flower data points makes for a VPD of 1.40 which is ideal. But there are many ways to reach that number. Shoot for that or below. 1.2- 1.4 is great and safe.

Obviously in a heat wave thats out the windows, but raising the light and/or raising RH will both slow the plant down, allowing more water to stay in the plant longer, which will assist in cooling it.

Early in the plants day the plant will naturally raise it's own temps. First thing in the morning the plant will be warmer than ambient room temps normally, so they know what they are doing.

If you can help out with what they are trying to do they will appreciate it. Watch them at the 10 hour mark, thats when/where you make your adjustments.

Thats when they are working hardest and most likely to encounter peril. Prior to that point, don't panic unless you see obvious stress, but if they look fine and the numbers are scaring you, be patient and wait until the 10 hour mark.

Over revving the plant on a daily basis will look like a good thing at 1st, but long term you prematurely wear the leaves out and in the last 3 weeks when resins really bulk up, you won't be synthesizing optimally and your terpene profile will really suffer.

A few days of heat wave won't hurt, but you are better long term by backing them off.

In known times of stress, fish ferts and seaweed inputs really really really help reduce that stress. So if you have any liquid kelps or hydrolyzed fish ferts now is a great time to get them into the soil.

 

[Gee64]

Forecasted to be really hot 'round these parts so I increased the distance from the lights. Woke up to triple digits in the cabinet but mid-eighties for top leaf temps.

Mid-eighties is a good environmental temp generally so seems the plant is cooling itself despite the ridiculous surrounding air, or am I reading that wrong? I'm probably going to leave the gap as is until the weather breaks, and hope that that's not in October.

Not much I can do about the environment so lowering the plant from the lights is the best I got. I could raise them back up a little bit to close the gap a bit if that would be beneficial but I don't want to stress them any more than they already are. Not seeing any canoeing of the leaves and they're praying pretty good so I'm probably just going to leave things as is.

Thoughts?

Azi here are a few VPD scenarios for you to both guide you and give you piece of mind.

 

[Gee64]

Note the huge temp differential but still low to high VPD's

 

[StoneOtter]

 

[Gee64]

Oh great... The Stoners just showed up

 

[Azimuth]

And plugging holes is as simple at the moment of say adding more T's of alfalfa to fill the greensand hole, and more again for absence of kelp? So trying for the same quantities just with fewer items. None of them are pure so adding more of one affects the others but I'll play around with it (might need a spreadsheet).

Built the spreadsheet today. An interesting exercise it was. Thanks for the suggestion.

The overview is that while I am currently light on NPK, I am a bit over in Ca but arguably the wrong mix. But by simply adding some of my crumbles to my mix it looks like it would be quite easy to get in the ball park with The Rev's numbers.

I had to make some assumptions as I couldn't find values for some things like my flower crumble and I've seen various figures for comfrey and nettle so I tried to use representative values.

 N
I'm at about 1/4 of The Rev. I'm not all that animated about this one since I don't typically have issues with it so maybe the microbes are mining enough from the air, but I can easily make some steps in that direction. I'll grow some beans in a pot of my old soil and then mix that soil with its now nitrogen fixing nodules in with a future round, and I'll harvest the beans for bean meal which is said to be high in N. I'll plan on adding it three ways; through the worm bin, cooked into the soil, and as a top dressing. 4 Tablespoons total would closed the gap by 2/3rds. I could even add some bean plants as a cover crop in veg and then chop and drop right in the pot.

P
This one is a bit more challenging with SRP being the main go-to. On the one hand not much is needed relative to the others but on the other hand it's apparently not very mobile and therefore should be spread throughout the mix. Although I don't have figures for the npk of dried flowers I would guess it's mostly P with some K so adding this to my mix before cooking could help address the global requirement.

But this might be where my Fruit & Flower JLF could play a role. In The Rev's new book he offers a liquid growers' cheat for his method which is a 5:1 mix of Fox Farm's Big Bloom and Alaska Brand Fish Fertilzer, veg thru harvest.

Maybe I'm over thinking this and could just run my whole grow on a similar mix of my FAA and Fruit & Flower JLF. I looked up the Big Bloom and it's essentially just worm castings and bat Guano from presumably nectar sucking bats. Since my F&F JLF is more diverse it might be even better as I add stuff like whole flowers as well as apples and blueberries which are high in calcium and silica, etc.

I think I'll try two things. One, I'll start adding some F&F to my weekly watering schedule which should get the P down uniformly into the mix immediately, and Two, I'll add some flower crumble to the soil I have cooking to get that process started for the next pot.

 K
I'm already about two thirds of The Rev's mix with my crustacean meal and Alfalfa and frankly it'll be more of an issue keeping the levels down, but both comfrey and nettle are high in K (both are higher than greensand or kelp or Alfalfa). So adding some of those to my worm bins, cooking mix, and top dressing should handle that need.

 Ca
On this one I'm actually over The Rev's levels but could use a better mix of the 4 I use. The nettle is quite high in ca so I may have to reduce the others or perhaps eliminate one if I want to add this to the three ways I'll use it.

I don't have any comfrey or nettle in my mix but I have been top dressing with them for about 4 weeks so hopefully the K issue that pops up about now will be held at bay for another few weeks.

But altogether it seems like it should all come together fairly quickly with some thoughtful adjustments.

 

[Gee64]

Built the spreadsheet today. An interesting exercise it was. Thanks for the suggestion.

The overview is that while I am currently light on NPK, I am a bit over in Ca but arguably the wrong mix. But by simply adding some of my crumbles to my mix it looks like it would be quite easy to get in the ball park with The Rev's numbers.

I had to make some assumptions as I couldn't find values for some things like my flower crumble and I've seen various figures for comfrey and nettle so I tried to use representative values.

 N
I'm at about 1/4 of The Rev. I'm not all that animated about this one since I don't typically have issues with it so maybe the microbes are mining enough from the air, but I can easily make some steps in that direction. I'll grow some beans in a pot of my old soil and then mix that soil with its now nitrogen fixing nodules in with a future round, and I'll harvest the beans for bean meal which is said to be high in N. I'll plan on adding it three ways; through the worm bin, cooked into the soil, and as a top dressing. 4 Tablespoons total would closed the gap by 2/3rds. I could even add some bean plants as a cover crop in veg and then chop and drop right in the pot.

P
This one is a bit more challenging with SRP being the main go-to. On the one hand not much is needed relative to the others but on the other hand it's apparently not very mobile and therefore should be spread throughout the mix. Although I don't have figures for the npk of dried flowers I would guess it's mostly P with some K so adding this to my mix before cooking could help address the global requirement.

But this might be where my Fruit & Flower JLF could play a role. In The Rev's new book he offers a liquid growers' cheat for his method which is a 5:1 mix of Fox Farm's Big Bloom and Alaska Brand Fish Fertilzer, veg thru harvest.

Maybe I'm over thinking this and could just run my whole grow on a similar mix of my FAA and Fruit & Flower JLF. I looked up the Big Bloom and it's essentially just worm castings and bat Guano from presumably nectar sucking bats. Since my F&F JLF is more diverse it might be even better as I add stuff like whole flowers as well as apples and blueberries which are high in calcium and silica, etc.

I think I'll try two things. One, I'll start adding some F&F to my weekly watering schedule which should get the P down uniformly into the mix immediately, and Two, I'll add some flower crumble to the soil I have cooking to get that process started for the next pot.

 K
I'm already about two thirds of The Rev's mix with my crustacean meal and Alfalfa and frankly it'll be more of an issue keeping the levels down, but both comfrey and nettle are high in K (both are higher than greensand or kelp or Alfalfa). So adding some of those to my worm bins, cooking mix, and top dressing should handle that need.

 Ca
On this one I'm actually over The Rev's levels but could use a better mix of the 4 I use. The nettle is quite high in ca so I may have to reduce the others or perhaps eliminate one if I want to add this to the three ways I'll use it.

I don't have any comfrey or nettle in my mix but I have been top dressing with them for about 4 weeks so hopefully the K issue that pops up about now will be held at bay for another few weeks.

But altogether it seems like it should all come together fairly quickly with some thoughtful adjustments.

I like everything about this post.

I think you should try the F & F right now and see if brix climbs over the week. If you break the 12 barrier then you know

I wouldn't worry about being over a bit of calcium. It's about AVAILABLE calcium, which flipping dolomite and oyster shell around will fix, and if it still concerns you then lower the oyster shell to dial it in. But oyster shell is very slow release so if you leave it in and you are over at least it's a very slow release ingredient that puts you over.

Try anything with your potions and follow the brix, but try them 1 at a time. I'd start with F and F 1st.

This is EXACTLY what you made it for

Showtime!!

 

[Gee64]

If it works feel free to hijack anything in here into your KNF thread to help others

 

[Gee64]

Built the spreadsheet today. An interesting exercise it was. Thanks for the suggestion.

The overview is that while I am currently light on NPK, I am a bit over in Ca but arguably the wrong mix. But by simply adding some of my crumbles to my mix it looks like it would be quite easy to get in the ball park with The Rev's numbers.

I had to make some assumptions as I couldn't find values for some things like my flower crumble and I've seen various figures for comfrey and nettle so I tried to use representative values.

 N
I'm at about 1/4 of The Rev. I'm not all that animated about this one since I don't typically have issues with it so maybe the microbes are mining enough from the air, but I can easily make some steps in that direction. I'll grow some beans in a pot of my old soil and then mix that soil with its now nitrogen fixing nodules in with a future round, and I'll harvest the beans for bean meal which is said to be high in N. I'll plan on adding it three ways; through the worm bin, cooked into the soil, and as a top dressing. 4 Tablespoons total would closed the gap by 2/3rds. I could even add some bean plants as a cover crop in veg and then chop and drop right in the pot.

You do need enough in the mix to fully compost enough carbon, so don't cheap out on it in the soil mix. If you need to add a bunch extra alfalfa, for example, or comfrey, or whatever, and that gives you enough greens but it makes things out of balance, you can plug holes during the grow with potions and topdressings, but you must have enough in the mix to bring the heat to cook it.

P
This one is a bit more challenging with SRP being the main go-to. On the one hand not much is needed relative to the others but on the other hand it's apparently not very mobile and therefore should be spread throughout the mix. Although I don't have figures for the npk of dried flowers I would guess it's mostly P with some K so adding this to my mix before cooking could help address the global requirement.

But this might be where my Fruit & Flower JLF could play a role. In The Rev's new book he offers a liquid growers' cheat for his method which is a 5:1 mix of Fox Farm's Big Bloom and Alaska Brand Fish Fertilzer, veg thru harvest.

Big bloom is my goto orchid food. It's good stuff. Really good actually. I think if you added a bit of molasses to it it would be even better, so if you use sugars to brew yout potions, try brewing your P potions with molasses instead of sugars, see what happens. I bet its a helluva bud hardener.

Maybe I'm over thinking this and could just run my whole grow on a similar mix of my FAA and Fruit & Flower JLF. I looked up the Big Bloom and it's essentially just worm castings and bat Guano from presumably nectar sucking bats. Since my F&F JLF is more diverse it might be even better as I add stuff like whole flowers as well as apples and blueberries which are high in calcium and silica, etc.

You easily could, especially in a wetter sip, but it won't be a good LOS grow, it will be an organic hydroponic grow.

Microbes would still be involved but myco wouldn't, so you need to give the plant what it needs when it needs it, myco is what allows plants to eat what they require when they require it.

They tell myco what they need when they need it and myco delivers. Are you ready for that responsibility? Test it on one plant for sure Don't miss a feeding.

I think I'll try two things. One, I'll start adding some F&F to my weekly watering schedule which should get the P down uniformly into the mix immediately, and Two, I'll add some flower crumble to the soil I have cooking to get that process started for the next pot.

Excellent and excellent, be generous to the soil with it. If it's also a nitrogen source then win/win.

 K
I'm already about two thirds of The Rev's mix with my crustacean meal and Alfalfa and frankly it'll be more of an issue keeping the levels down, but both comfrey and nettle are high in K (both are higher than greensand or kelp or Alfalfa). So adding some of those to my worm bins, cooking mix, and top dressing should handle that need.

Hehe thats why you never hear me talk about K, it's everywhere. Bananas and their peels are high in P and K and carbs in a starchy form.

 Ca
On this one I'm actually over The Rev's levels but could use a better mix of the 4 I use. The nettle is quite high in ca so I may have to reduce the others or perhaps eliminate one if I want to add this to the three ways I'll use it.

Get your calcium correct in the cooking mix, don't screw with that part. It needs to be in balance, so dolomite, and if you want good terpenes you need sulfur.

You need good tilth and the CEC is mostly Ca and Mg, don't screw this part up, it controls brix, thus photosynthesis. P is useless without adequate Ca, in balance with Mg, and adequate O2.

Or use a homemade CalMag every watering. That works too but brix won't climb if it see-saws so if you use ValMag don't miss a dose, you need to stay ahead but not too strong or you start frying things, like leaves. But the refractometer will guide you and if you are OK with the odd sacrifice to learn how a plant and the soil use calcium throughout it's life it's a wicked good way to learn. It will teach you that dolomite in the soil with gypsum and oyster shell flower is the way to go

I don't have any comfrey or nettle in my mix but I have been top dressing with them for about 4 weeks so hopefully the K issue that pops up about now will be held at bay for another few weeks.

It may fix it, but if the soil is low in it then it will likely only lessen the problem.

But altogether it seems like it should all come together fairly quickly with some thoughtful adjustments.

I totally agree, and be honest with yourself.

If something is just too hard to manage in the soil until you figure it out down the road, then live without it but have a potion ready to plug the hole, assume you will need it, and use it preventatively to plug the hole before the deficit shows up.

Just make sure browns and greens are balanced in the soil cook.

If you are honest with yourself you will see where the deficiencies will likely arise.

Prepare for them and assume they are coming. Get ahead on them.

Any liquid that isn't pure water is best top watered.

Math doesn't lie so using the spread sheet to fill in Rev's values between cooking and potions and topdressings will work well.

Top dressing plant matter is slow release, so think of that like feather meal.

Top dressing minerals is fast acting.

If you powder your top dressing meals they will work faster. A blender works good. It won't make them fast release, but mid speed for sure. About 7-10 days instead of 3-4 weeks.

 

[Gee64]

Day 33, 33, 19, and 16 of Flower.

The Programmers on Day 14.

The Gang.

The plants look good if you crop the lower carnage out of the pictures.

 

[Azimuth]

I like everything about this post.

I think you should try the F & F right now and see if brix climbs over the week. If you break the 12 barrier then you know

I wouldn't worry about being over a bit of calcium. It's about AVAILABLE calcium, which flipping dolomite and oyster shell around will fix, and if it still concerns you then lower the oyster shell to dial it in. But oyster shell is very slow release so if you leave it in and you are over at least it's a very slow release ingredient that puts you over.

Try anything with your potions and follow the brix, but try them 1 at a time. I'd start with F and F 1st.

This is EXACTLY what you made it for

Showtime!!

I did add it yesterday. I bribed before adding it and got my now familiar way 11 with a hazy line. I still see some mite activity so it'd be great if this could push me over that threshold.

 

[Azimuth]

If they are already fully composted then you don't nescessarily need to cook them in but you still will be better off with them mixed in and then topdressed to maintain, so you may as well mix them in at cooking and when the colloidal platters load up when CEC comes to life, those minerals are loading, and in the mix they are down in the roots.

I'm happy to add them as a regular input before cooking.

You do need enough in the mix to fully compost enough carbon, so don't cheap out on it in the soil mix. If you need to add a bunch extra alfalfa, for example, or comfrey, or whatever, and that gives you enough greens but it makes things out of balance, you can plug holes during the grow with potions and topdressings, but you must have enough in the mix to bring the heat to cook it.

I'm finding it hard to get the temp up in my 2g small batches. Maybe I'll try insulating the bucket and see if that helps.

You easily could, especially in a wetter sip, but it won't be a good LOS grow, it will be an organic hydroponic grow.

The water stick has taken the drama around watering away for me so I'm happy running it drier to engage the microbes. It is an intriguing idea though. If I made that mix with my JLF's as a regular feeding would the plant or the microbes come to rely on it? It would be easy enough to add it to my dolo water on a regular basis.

Microbes would still be involved but myco wouldn't, so you need to give the plant what it needs when it needs it, myco is what allows plants to eat what they require when they require it.

They tell myco what they need when they need it and myco delivers. Are you ready for that responsibility? Test it on one plant for sure Don't miss a feeding.

Asked another way, if running the moisture level with the stick, but also with a steady diet of FAA and F&F, do either the myco or the microbes go dormant?

Excellent and excellent, be generous to the soil with it. If it's also a nitrogen source then win/win.

I don't think the F&F has much N in it, but the comfrey and the nettle have it for sure. Comfrey is often touted as a great compost accelerator.

Or use a homemade CalMag every watering.

That's the dolo water I'm using regularly now.

It may fix it, but if the soil is low in it then it will likely only lessen the problem.

"I'll take lessening the problem for the win, Alex!"

Honestly, if I could get further than 4 weeks in flower with minimal issues that would be a big win. I'm almost past week 4 now and so far so good.

 

[Gee64]

I'm happy to add them as a regular input before cooking.


I'm finding it hard to get the temp up in my 2g small batches. Maybe I'll try insulating the bucket and see if that helps.


The water stick has taken the drama around watering away for me so I'm happy running it drier to engage the microbes. It is an intriguing idea though. If I made that mix with my JLF's as a regular feeding would the plant or the microbes come to rely on it?

I think they would.

t would be easy enough to add it to my dolo water on a regular basis.


Asked another way, if running the moisture level with the stick, but also with a steady diet of FAA and F&F, do either the myco or the microbes go dormant?

I don't know for sure, as I'm really not familiar with the use of potions, but if you constantly dump teas in the plant will have no use for myco and you will have to start PH'ing them, so this may be similar. But again, I don't know for sure. I think long term myco would go dormant. The microbes far less so.

I don't think the F&F has much N in it, but the comfrey and the nettle have it for sure. Comfrey is often touted as a great compost accelerator.


That's the dolo water I'm using regularly now.


"I'll take lessening the problem for the win, Alex!"

Honestly, if I could get further than 4 weeks in flower with minimal issues that would be a big win. I'm almost past week 4 now and so far so good.

 

[Gee64]

I did add it yesterday. I bribed before adding it and got my now familiar way 11 with a hazy line. I still see some mite activity so it'd be great if this could push me over that threshold.

Are the mites on the plant or just in the soil?

It would be cool to see if the F & F could push brix up.

 

[Gee64]

I think they would.


I don't know for sure, as I'm really not familiar with the use of potions, but if you constantly dump teas in the plant will have no use for myco and you will have to start PH'ing them, so this may be similar. But again, I don't know for sure. I think long term myco would go dormant. The microbes far less so.

That being said, fish ferts enhance myco so your potions may as well, only 1 way to find out

 

[StoneOtter]

Oh great... The Stoners just showed up

Where's @Lerugged ? I was vaping some LC-18 last night and got nice cinnamon tarps! YUM!

 

[Gee64]

Where's @Lerugged ? I was vaping some LC-18 last night and got nice cinnamon tarps! YUM!

How is the buzz from LC-18? She is part of my next run.

 

[Azimuth]

You easily could, especially in a wetter sip, but it won't be a good LOS grow, it will be an organic hydroponic grow.

Microbes would still be involved but myco wouldn't, so you need to give the plant what it needs when it needs it, myco is what allows plants to eat what they require when they require it.

They tell myco what they need when they need it and myco delivers. Are you ready for that responsibility? Test it on one plant for sure Don't miss a feeding.

Do you think The Rev's Liquid Cheater method would be able to get brix up over 12, or is that reserved for myco based grows?

I ask because that is an intriguing proposition for me to run a grow on only those two inputs, but the real goal is good quality medicine from healthy plants. Higher brix will give me that along with dealing with the bug issue. If could do it with my potions that would be way easier (though likely less fun as I do enjoy the business of potions), but higher brix takes a higher priority over those things.

 

[Azimuth]

Hey @StoneOtter have you brixed your flowering plant in the SIP lately? I'm curious if your change of approach lead to any differences.

 

[Gee64]

Do you think The Rev's Liquid Cheater method would be able to get brix up over 12, or is that reserved for myco based grows?

I ask because that is an intriguing proposition for me to run a grow on only those two inputs, but the real goal is good quality medicine from healthy plants. Higher brix will give me that along with dealing with the bug issue. If could do it with my potions that would be way easier (though likely less fun as I do enjoy the business of potions), but higher brix takes a higher priority over those things.

If you use Rev's cheater as a tea and don't feed it more than once every 2 weeks it will do wonders across the board.

Feed it in lieu of a top watering when the plants are quite dry and water in as much as you would water with if it were water. I wouldn't let excess sit in the reservoir tho.

The microlife will be fine with it if it dries down between use and the next watering. Use molasses in it too.

If you are going to administer a feed you may as well boost the microbes too. Molasses does that.

So if you went EWC, guano, molasses, fish ferts, and water you would be feeding the fungus with fish, the microbes with carbon (molasses), and adding P and ewc.

That's a recipe for high brix priming if you have good soil calcium in place.

So decide if you should use dolo water one more time or not, then concoct a potion/tea that fits the above recipe and try it. The sugar is important here to boost brix, and molasses is the best, so if you want to concoct a sugar potion for future use thats cool, but for speed and reliability right now I would just use molasses for now and potion in the rest if you can.

It should work, but you may need to feed it semi regularly to keep brix up, so you may have to work it into your rotation, and thats because your soil isn't fortified enough this round, but once you get the soil stronger a tea like this could easily prime a good brix run.