The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

Azimuth said:
I got up early today to take some brix readings just before lights off to see if that would make much difference in my results as I usually take them shortly after lights on for convenience.

Sadly, no joy.

The flowering plant is stuck at 11 with a moderately hazy line. It'll be ready for more water tonight so I'll go with dolo water up top again. Color is still a bit darker than would seem ideal and there were some leaves down low starting to yellow and were crispy which I removed to see if it would spread. I've been doing the dolomite at about 50 ppm but given your comments above I think I'll jack it up to maybe 75 ppm and see if there are any ill effects since it seems like I still need more than I've been giving it. This sounds like the chase you referenced earlier.

My CBG plant in the on-deck circle registered a solid 6 with a very sharply defined line. WTF?!??

That's down from 11 just before the tea, an 8 a couple of days later, and now 6. The castings tea seems to have put things in reverse. It's still not ready for another watering but, given the numbers , I think I'll give it some more castings up top and heavily mist them in.

That plant has the better green color that I expect and looks great so it's interesting that both meters say differently.

Maybe my meter is broken, or needs batteries. Or maybe I need a plug in version for more power! :rolleyes:
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After analyzing your mix, it's low on P and K, so brix will be hard to get high. Is that the plant that touched the light?
 
Gee64 said:
After analyzing your mix, it's low on P and K, so brix will be hard to get high. Is that the plant that touched the light?
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Ok, maybe that's why is been so hard to move the needle. And yes, they all touch the light late in veg before they get promoted. It's only for the last 5-7 days of veg though if that matters.
 
Azi if you want to make some great headway in your goal, analyze Rev's recipe in an NPK breakdown and sub in your own ingredients to match the Rev, piece by piece, then balance the greens to browns and if you have to, add mineral dusts.

Cook it all in, and then make your top dressing mix the same, and use your top dressing mix as a tea stock.

Pay close attention to his P and K numbers, N is easy, you will likely end up with too much but thats what veg is for, to use it up in 4 weeks.

If N is looking too high, remember, it's protein and brown are carbs, just add more carbs to balance the proteins identical to composting. Roughly 2 carbs to a protein. Same as humans require.

It will work. It's how commercial supersoils are formulated, they just use commercial inputs for greens, not customs, but the formula behind the scenes is the same.

All green meals are high in nitro, it's the rest of what they bring that matters. Seeds, flowers, and fossilized fruit-eater guanos are where P is.

Read up on whole wheat bread flours and their nutritional values, you will be amazed.

It's just ground up seeds. If you find certain flours that work, growing small crops of those grains in your yard is easy and perpetual.

Experiment with commercial products and then grow your own of what works.
 
Azimuth said:
Ok, maybe that's why is been so hard to move the needle. And yes, they all touch the light late in veg before they get promoted. It's only for the last 5-7 days of veg though if that matters.
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Thats when you will see brix crash the hardest, photosynthesis is compromised by heat/transpiration issues.
 
But you have water content correct now, thats a foundationally huge piece as it corrects air and allows calcium to work better.

I doubt microbes are an issue so that only leaves P. One more piece and you are there. K is low too so address that for proper nutrition.

Cooking it all in allows the plant to build dumptrucks from the day it sprouts if all the pieces are there.

Cooking makes them available. P is the dump truck. Food is no good if it can't be hauled into the plant, and exudates are useless if they can't be back hauled to the microbes.

Instead of the rich getting richer, the poor gets poorer simply due to a dumptruck shortage. Hows that for an analogy?🤣

Damn truckers are behind everything these days🤣
 
Gee64 said:
Thats when you will see brix crash the hardest, photosynthesis is compromised by heat/transpiration issues.
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I used the gun and the leaf temps were way off. I think you said 2° less than ambient is the target and the on-deck batter was off by 5 or 6 I think. I'll take another measurement when the light come on. The flower plant was low so I put it up on blocks and now have roughly 2-3° difference on that one.

What's a good period to wait after lights on so I get a good representation of what's going on after the plant wakes up for both brix and leaf temps? I know brix is best measured at peak sunlight so later in the day cycle but what about leaf temp?
 
Gee64 said:
But you have water content correct now, thats a foundationally huge piece as it corrects air and allows calcium to work better.

I doubt microbes are an issue so that only leaves P. One more piece and you are there. K is low too so address that for proper nutrition.

Cooking it all in allows the plant to build dumptrucks from the day it sprouts if all the pieces are there.

Cooking makes them available. P is the dump truck. Food is no good if it can't be hauled into the plant, and exudates are useless if they can't be back hauled to the microbes.

Instead of the rich getting richer, the poor gets poorer simply due to a dumptruck shortage. Hows that for an analogy?🤣

Damn truckers are behind everything these days🤣
Click to expand...
I do feel like we're removing the road blocks one by one.  And the main inputs I'm counting on for my NPK need to be a larger amount. I do think they will prove fruitful, but I simply need more if them.

So, I guess in the meantime I can work on temp substitutions like I did with alfalfa vs kelp meal.
Gee64 said:
1.75 gals recycled soil
2.8 cups coco
EWC
4.25 T prilled dolomite /2T
1.5 T blood meal 13-1-.6 /0T
.75 T bat guano 7-3-1 /0T
.75 T glacial rock dust /4T
4.25 T feather meal 13-0-0 /0T
4.25 T bone meal 3-15-0 /0T
2.25 T greensand 0-0-3 /0T
.5 T SRP 0-3-0 /0T
3 T org basmati rice /0T
1.5 T gypsum /2T
4.25 T kelp meal 1-0-4 /0T
3 T alfalfa meal /2T
1.5 T oyster shell flour /4T

4T Crustacean meal 4-3-0
2T Neem meal 5-2-2
4T Malted barley
2T Azomite
Click to expand...
- The prilled dolomite and Oyster shell flour are easy enough to reverse, the rice easy to add

-The high 'N's' of blood meal and bat guano (short) and feather meal (long) will be more of a challenge. I've seen soybean meal on some organic lists as good sources for N (and per your post above) and I know that legumes 'fix' N in the soil so maybe I'll take some of my old soil and plant some beans in it and then use the beans for meal and add the roots and soil back to my old soil bucket. Then it's a matter of including it my top dressing to provide the long term aspect.

-The bone meal is another calcium/phosphorus input. I could get at this with a vinegar extract of baked bones made like eggshell in WCA. Wonder if it would work with chicken bones. 🤔
Also I could address it with calcium and phosphorus separately with my inputs.

-The greensand and kelp meal would be addressed with more alfalfa meal at the moment, then switching to pumpkin seed meal,

-The SRP would be covered by my fruit and flower mix, albeit at increased amounts.

-The neem meal I want to eliminate, and I want to try making my own bug frass with bug carcasses from my new solar powered bug zapper 😈 . That for added chitin alongside the crustacean meal.


So, all in all I think quite doable. By substituting weekly adds of top dressings for some of the longer term inputs like feather meal I can whittle down the list a bit and while some might not be the ideal inputs, the plant probably can't really tell the difference from a P molecule delivered by one or the other. Certainly concentrations of those inputs can vary but should also be able to be accounted for with my potions.
 
Gee64 said:
But you have water content correct now, thats a foundationally huge piece as it corrects air and allows calcium to work better.

I doubt microbes are an issue so that only leaves P. One more piece and you are there. K is low too so address that for proper nutrition.

Cooking it all in allows the plant to build dumptrucks from the day it sprouts if all the pieces are there.

Cooking makes them available. P is the dump truck. Food is no good if it can't be hauled into the plant, and exudates are useless if they can't be back hauled to the microbes.

Instead of the rich getting richer, the poor gets poorer simply due to a dumptruck shortage. Hows that for an analogy?🤣

Damn truckers are behind everything these days🤣
Click to expand...
I do feel like we're removing the road blocks one by one.  And the main inputs I'm counting on for my NPK need to be a larger amount. I do think they will prove fruitful, but I simply need more.

So, I guess in the meantime I can work on temp substitutions like I did with alfalfa vs kelp meal.
Gee64 said:
1.75 gals recycled soil
2.8 cups coco
EWC
4.25 T prilled dolomite /2T
1.5 T blood meal 13-1-.6 /0T
.75 T bat guano 7-3-1 /0T
.75 T glacial rock dust /4T
4.25 T feather meal 13-0-0 /0T
4.25 T bone meal 3-15-0 /0T
2.25 T greensand 0-0-3 /0T
.5 T SRP 0-3-0 /0T
3 T org basmati rice /0T
1.5 T gypsum /2T
4.25 T kelp meal 1-0-4 /0T
3 T alfalfa meal /2T
1.5 T oyster shell flour /4T

4T Crustacean meal 4-3-0
2T Neem meal 5-2-2
4T Malted barley
2T Azomite
Click to expand...
- The prilled dolomite and Oyster shell flour are easy enough to reverse, the rice easy to add

-The high 'N's' of blood meal and bat guano (short) and feather meal (long) will be more of a challenge. I've seen soybean meal on some organic list sources for N (as you did above) and I know that legumes 'fix' N in the soil so maybe I'll take some of my old soil and plant some beans in it and then use the beans for meal and add the roots and soil back to my old soil bucket. Then it's a matter of including it my top dressing to provide the long term aspect.

-The bone meal is another calcium/phosphorus input. I could get at this with a vinegar extract of baked bones made like eggshell in WCA. Wonder if it would work with chicken bones. 🤔
Also I could address it with calcium and phosphorus separately

-The greensand and kelp meal would be addressed with more alfalfa meal at the moment, then switching to pumpkin seed meal,

-The SRP would be covered by my fruit and flower mix, albeit at increased amounts. The neem meal I want to eliminate, and I want to try making my own bug frass with bug carcasses from my new solar powered bug zapper 😈 . That for added chitin along with the crustacean meal.


So, all in all I think quite doable. By substituting weekly adds of top dressings for some of the longer term inputs like feather meal I can whittle down the list a bit and while some might not be the ideal inputs, the plant probably can't really tell the difference from a P molecule delivered by one or the other. Certainly concentrations of those inputs can vary but should also be able to be accounted for with my potions.
 
Gee64 said:
Azi your potions could pull this off. Look at what you have made up, and see how many zero's you can plug with them. Then make a tea and start feeding regularly, see where it goes.
Click to expand...
And plugging holes is as simple at the moment of say adding more T's of alfalfa to fill the greensand hole, and more again for absence of kelp? So trying for the same quantities just with fewer items. None of them are pure so adding more of one affects the others but I'll play around with it (might need a spreadsheet).
 
Azimuth said:
I used the gun and the leaf temps were way off. I think you said 2° less than ambient is the target and the on-deck batter was off by 5 or 6 I think. I'll take another measurement when the light come on. The flower plant was low so I put it up on blocks and now have roughly 2-3° difference on that one.
Click to expand...
2-3 is fine, 2 perfect, but better 2.5 then 1.5. That temperature offset in combination with RH is the throttle to the whole grow. Any time the temp dif is less than 2 you are over revving the plant. You can get away with it at high humidities but long term it ruins leaves. It makes then harder and leathery. Old looking.
Azimuth said:
What's a good period to wait after lights on so I get a good representation of what's going on after the plant wakes up for both brix and leaf temps? I know brix is best measured at peak sunlight so later in the day cycle but what about leaf temp?
Click to expand...
8 hrs after lights on minimum, but I like 10 hours for both. You want the extreme for both. You need to see measurements when she's running hard.

Early in the day the plant will warm it's own leaves to sometimes even warmer than room temp. Don't mess with that. Let her warm herself if she likes. Don't adjust the light based on any times except after 8 hours minimum, but do yourself a favor and shoot for 10.

Freshly after watering drops leaf temps too.

I check air temp and RH before I even open the tent, then pop the tent open and quickly zap each plant on its highest full formed leaf.

Azimuth said:
And plugging holes is as simple at the moment of say adding more T's of alfalfa to fill the greensand hole, and more again for absence of kelp?
Click to expand...
Diversity is better but anything that lines up the missing NPK of the formula is fine. You can diversify later on the next batch.
Azimuth said:
So trying for the same quantities just with fewer items. None of them are pure so adding more of one affects the others but I'll play around with it (might need a spreadsheet).
Click to expand...
Definitely use the spread sheet. Then put all your greens into a container by themselves, measure it, and add twice that in browns. Mix it in. Water to 6 on the stik. Done. Start cooking.

Make a double batch of the greens and you have bulk left over for topdressings and teas and the worms.
 
Azimuth said:
I do feel like we're removing the road blocks one by one.  And the main inputs I'm counting on for my NPK need to be a larger amount. I do think they will prove fruitful, but I simply need more if them.

So, I guess in the meantime I can work on temp substitutions like I did with alfalfa vs kelp meal.

- The prilled dolomite and Oyster shell flour are easy enough to reverse, the rice easy to add

-The high 'N's' of blood meal and bat guano (short) and feather meal (long) will be more of a challenge. I've seen soybean meal on some organic lists as good sources for N (and per your post above) and I know that legumes 'fix' N in the soil so maybe I'll take some of my old soil and plant some beans in it and then use the beans for meal and add the roots and soil back to my old soil bucket. Then it's a matter of including it my top dressing to provide the long term aspect.

-The bone meal is another calcium/phosphorus input. I could get at this with a vinegar extract of baked bones made like eggshell in WCA. Wonder if it would work with chicken bones. 🤔
Also I could address it with calcium and phosphorus separately with my inputs.

-The greensand and kelp meal would be addressed with more alfalfa meal at the moment, then switching to pumpkin seed meal,

-The SRP would be covered by my fruit and flower mix, albeit at increased amounts.

-The neem meal I want to eliminate, and I want to try making my own bug frass with bug carcasses from my new solar powered bug zapper 😈 . That for added chitin alongside the crustacean meal.


So, all in all I think quite doable. By substituting weekly adds of top dressings for some of the longer term inputs like feather meal I can whittle down the list a bit and while some might not be the ideal inputs, the plant probably can't really tell the difference from a P molecule delivered by one or the other. Certainly concentrations of those inputs can vary but should also be able to be accounted for with my potions.
Click to expand...
I think this is a fantastic path to start on, and if deficiencies pop up you get prime opportunity to try potions. Muhahahaha.... I like that!😈
 
Programmers - Day 13.

20240619_082831.jpg

They are drying down into the green zone today finally. It took a few days so they must still not have full rootballs. They did start to grow faster again today. All 3 got topdressed with 1.5Tbsp Gaia Powerbloom and EWC.

20240619_172245.jpg


20240619_172227.jpg


20240619_172222.jpg

Even the runt is going now. Her branching is starting to come in. I didn't get to planting one outside. Hopefully tomorrow.
 
Forecasted to be really hot 'round these parts so I increased the distance from the lights. Woke up to triple digits in the cabinet but mid-eighties for top leaf temps.

Mid-eighties is a good environmental temp generally so seems the plant is cooling itself despite the ridiculous surrounding air, or am I reading that wrong? I'm probably going to leave the gap as is until the weather breaks, and hope that that's not in October. 😟

Not much I can do about the environment so lowering the plant from the lights is the best I got. I could raise them back up a little bit to close the gap a bit if that would be beneficial but I don't want to stress them any more than they already are. Not seeing any canoeing of the leaves and they're praying pretty good so I'm probably just going to leave things as is.

Thoughts?
 
Azimuth said:
Forecasted to be really hot 'round these parts so I increased the distance from the lights. Woke up to triple digits in the cabinet but mid-eighties for top leaf temps.

Mid-eighties is a good environmental temp generally so seems the plant is cooling itself despite the ridiculous surrounding air, or am I reading that wrong? I'm probably going to leave the gap as is until the weather breaks, and hope that that's not in October. 😟

Not much I can do about the environment so lowering the plant from the lights is the best I got. I could raise them back up a little bit to close the gap a bit if that would be beneficial but I don't want to stress them any more than they already are. Not seeing any canoeing of the leaves and they're praying pretty good so I'm probably just going to leave things as is.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Definitely do anything you can to keep them cooler. Trays of cold water between the pots helps too. Just curious, whats your RH in your little space?
 
Gee64 said:
Definitely do anything you can to keep them cooler. Trays of cold water between the pots helps too. Just curious, whats your RH in your little space?
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If you aren't seeing any stress then they are good, but watch closely.

LOS accelerates at warmer temps than synthetics so being in the 80's isn't as bad as it sounds but triple digits could get sketchy.

You may need to water more often, especially if they are happy at that temperature.

They could start to move a lot of water, which is a good thing. Just water more often not too much at once.

The ones in veg may get really big really fast in that heat. we had a "heat dome" go thru our region a couple years back in mid June with the hottest day being 117F.

My outdoor grow went nuts. The whole week was triple digits with 3 days at 115+. They seemed fine. They ended up being some 9 footers.
 
Gee64 said:
Thats quite a spread but if you can keep the humidity high it will help. If you have a cloth pot and the space, a wet bag of dirt will really raise humidity well and stabilize the grow space.
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That's a good idea. The higher numbers are with lights out obv.

I'll keep an eye out for water use.

So, no issue with the larger delta between leaf and air temps? I figured keeping the leaves closer to what is considered ideal temps would be better than trying to match the air temps minus a couple of degrees.
 
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