The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Gee64]

Why would the meals work best cooked in at the beginning rather than as a weekly top dress with castings?

All the humates, which never go away, are evenly distributed throughout the pot. They run your soils CEC and act as water reservoirs so you really want even distribution.

You can top dress them too, but then why would you even cook a mix if you could just top dress instead?

Top dressing is maintenance for the global mix. The global mix is the main horsepower and as it depletes it still maintains soil structure and top dressings keep nutrients and conditioners coming from above.

Try a side by side with one pot cooked in and top dressed, the other just top dressed.

 

[Gee64]

Also of note, the flowering plant needed water again yesterday after its big 1x flush with my castings tea on Saturday. Two days to drink all that water.

Good thing I checked it with the meter as I would normally have ignored it thinking it'd need at least another day or two.

I probe mine every time I open the tent. IR gun in one hand, water stik in the other. Thats fantastic that she is moving water that well. Her lungs are opening up

 

[Azimuth]

All the humates, which never go away, are evenly distributed throughout the pot. They run your soils CEC and act as water reservoirs so you really want even distribution.

You can top dress them too, but then why would you even cook a mix if you could just top dress instead?

Top dressing is maintenance for the global mix. The global mix is the main horsepower and as it depletes it still maintains soil structure and top dressings keep nutrients and conditioners coming from above.

Try a side by side with one pot cooked in and top dressed, the other just top dressed.

The stuff in the top dressing also goes through the worm bin so are you saying there's an advantage to cooking the raw stuff in as well? Seems to me at the end of the process they would be converted by the microbes and end up being similar to what's in the worm castings, just without the worm goodness.

You can top dress them too, but then why would you even cook a mix if you could just top dress instead?

My question exactly. The Geoflora model. Your mix is ready right away vs cooking for many weeks.

But maybe there's some advantage to the same inputs in different forms. Diversification of inputs is something I like to practice anyway.

 

[Gee64]

The stuff in the top dressing also goes through the worm bin so are you saying there's an advantage to cooking the raw stuff in as well?

You don't want any raw in the pot. But if you feed it to the worms 1st it's vermicomposted which is great, or are you saying you use some vemicomposted and some raw?

Seems to me at the end of the process they would be converted by the microbes and end up being similar to what's in the worm castings, just without the worm goodness.

Yes, but it's all up top where the roots aren't, so eventually some moves, the stuff thats mobile in soil like calciums, but P is damn near immobile in soil. It's why it works. Roots must find it but it can't leach away. Microbes and fungii bring the root to the P, squirt exudates on it, and start grinding on it. If it's on the surface it will stay there.

My question exactly. The Geoflora model. Your mix is ready right away vs cooking for many weeks.

But maybe there's some advantage to the same inputs in different forms.

Geoflora is various types of each NP and K in fadt, medium, and slow release types of each.

Diversification of inputs is something I like to practice anyway.

Geoflora works because you mix it in globally and then top dress more. Your crumbles would be the same, but aren't your crumbles just dried uncomposted flowers and such? If so then cooking helps.

If they are already fully composted then you don't nescessarily need to cook them in but you still will be better off with them mixed in and then topdressed to maintain, so you may as well mix them in at cooking and when the colloidal platters load up when CEC comes to life, those minerals are loading, and in the mix they are down in the roots.

Otherwise you are starting with an empty-ish pot and trying to get it up to par with top dressings. You want to start with a full pot and maintain, never playing catch-up.

Topdressing won't get humates throughout your entire growing container, but mixing them in will.

Try a side-by-side and have a look. But 1st I would come up with a plan to address the zero's in the global mix, then topdressing becomes just maintenance.

 

[Gee64]

Well good news I hope. I hit the flower clones with 85ppm dolomite water yesterday hard. A full drenching.

Today they are back in the green zone on the water stik account the pots are so small, but brix says 14 and calcium is quite fuzzy.

Fuzzy enough that normally I wouldn't worry about it, so I think I will up the dolo water to 100ppm and give it every watering.

I'm going to start the programmers on it too. I know I said I wanted to let them find their own way, but low calcium will screw their chances eventually so they get it at least until uppotting.

Here they are today. The branching begins.

Day 12.

They are still pretty wet so it will be a couple more days until they get some dolo water. If all the Gaia mix requires is dolo water it's still a really cheap grow.

Fingers crossed

 

[Gee64]

The other plant is even better! Sweet!

 

[Gee64]

Thats a good calcium line

The worms are gonna be so pissed.

 

[Azimuth]

You don't want any raw in the pot. But if you feed it to the worms 1st it's vermicomposted which is great, or are you saying you use some vemicomposted and some raw?

I haven't added any raw but I thought that's what you were advocating for above. Or maybe you're saying add raw at time of mixing so it can cook?

I do add them to my worm bins so there is some in the mix. Not as much as there will be though since I didn't plan on using them that way last year and used most of my harvest making JLF's. This year my crumbles will be the focus.

If they are already fully composted then you don't nescessarily need to cook them in but you still will be better off with them mixed in and then topdressed to maintain, so you may as well mix them in at cooking and when the colloidal platters load up when CEC comes to life, those minerals are loading, and in the mix they are down in the roots.

They're not composted for storage but I started adding them to my worm bins. If I get enough harvest I also plan to add them to my compost. They are dried and crumbled leaves and flowers. Thecfruit I add goes directly to the worms first.

Topdressing won't get humates throughout your entire growing container, but mixing them in will.

But presumably I have those with my castings, compost, and leaf mold, right?

 

[Gee64]

I haven't added any raw but I thought that's what you were advocating for above. Or maybe you're saying add raw at time of mixing so it can cook?

I am. Recipes refer to it as dry ammendments. Any dry ammendment can also be used in a tea or a top dressing, but work best when cooked in.

I do add them to my worm bins so there is some in the mix.

Having the same mix in your worm bin as you have cooking into your soil is excellent. When I mix my worm tray ammendments I mix a blend of 25% of what I put into 20 gallons of soil, minus the calciums, into a bucket and thats what I add to the worm farm with all the scraps, plus weed meal. I also use some oyster shell flour for grit.

Not as much as there will be though since I didn't plan on using them that way last year and used most of my harvest making JLF's. This year my crumbles will be the focus.


They're not composted for storage but I started adding them to my worm bins. If I get enough harvest I also plan to add them to my compost. They are dried and crumbled leaves and flowers. Thecfruit I add goes directly to the worms first.


But presumably I have those with my castings, compost, and leaf mold, right?

You do, but more is better. Eventually pretty much everything you topdress will get down to the roots, but if you add it to the roots initially by cooking it in AND topdress with it too it's better. You never end up playing catchup.

You can't topdress feed only an entire grow successfully. Eventually in flower the plant will eat faster than compost can work it's way in, so your soil is like a battery, trickle feeding in conjuntion with topdressing.

So if the top dressing is the same as the dry ammendments already cooked in, and the ewc ingredients, you constantly maintain a balanced feed with calcium and microbes coming in fresh every time you use ewc.

Ponder that, and plug the zero's. Then add it to your soil, topdressings, and ewc.

Don't forget to balance browns and greens as you learn and as you think it out.

You will find it takes a lot of greens, so just add coco if you haven't got, or aren't sure, which browns to use.

The greens are your proteins so they are far more important than your carbs, but carbs bring minerals generally speaking, so a lot of carbs are generally the same, more or less.

Browns don't matter as much, they are there to burn proteins in cooking and become humates in soil that hold water.

They all do that but bring different mineral profiles. Greens are where the money is.

Then with teas you can add more or less of anything you want/need in a fast release method.

 

[Gee64]

RVDV - Days 31, 31, 17, and 14 of Flower.

Brix 15.5 is in the back left and brix 14.5 with a lesser but still fuzzy calcium line is in the front left. Day 17 is right rear and day 14 right front.

Brix 14 tops. They browned a bit when cacium got crisp on the brix reading.

These 2 are going to be bigger. The extra veg has them the same height as the other 2 but they are still stretching.

I think tomorrow I will have time to cull the revegger and plant a programmer outside.

The pot is equal parts used soil, outdoor compost, EWC, and The Answer, with some perlite.

The revegger won't be very rooted in yet. I'll just carve the old rootball out with a knife.

 

[Gee64]

Azi your potions could pull this off. Look at what you have made up, and see how many zero's you can plug with them. Then make a tea and start feeding regularly, see where it goes.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Gee, I am wondering. I have a shelf stable calcium solution that I made from vinegar, eggshells and cuttlefish bones. Do you think I should give my plants a bit of calcium in their first watering? Just for good measure or do you think they are looking good to go.

Q2, I am not ready to water the plants yet. The bases of the pots are still damp to the touch. They usually start showing sex anytime from about 3 weeks onwards. They already have a layer of EWC on top. Do you think now is a good time to add the top dress (the Elemental Blend we spoke about earlier)?

 

[Gee64]

Gee, I am wondering. I have a shelf stable calcium solution that I made from vinegar, eggshells and cuttlefish bones. Do you think I should give my plants a bit of calcium in their first watering? Just for good measure or do you think they are looking good to go.

I'm not an auto grower so I don't know if auto's are calcium pigs or not, but if the surface of your pot gets crusty when it dries, and you crumble the crust up really well and then after it dries again from the next watering it's crusty again, it's likely that you need calcium.

The 1st crusting after the 1st waterings always happens so pay no attention to that, it's if it crusts every time it dries out that you are looking for. That indicates that magnesium is getting higher in the calcium to magnesium ratio, which means calcium is actually getting lower.

That being said, if you are only mixing the calcium solution to about 50ppm you can use it pretty much every watering if you like.

I follow the soil surface and I also use a refractometer to monitor calcium, but lots of people use low dose CalMag at every watering and have no ill effects.

I have tried that a few times just to see and if you keep it low dose (50ppm) I have never seen it cause harm, other than leaving calcium residue on the cloth pots after the grow is over, but a rinse in a CLR solution and then thru the washing machine without soap cleans that up pretty well.

Q2, I am not ready to water the plants yet. The bases of the pots are still damp to the touch. They usually start showing sex anytime from about 3 weeks onwards. They already have a layer of EWC on top. Do you think now is a good time to add the top dress (the Elemental Blend we spoke about earlier)?

I do actually. I find top dressing works best if you put it and EWC on together, scratch it into the top inch of the soil really well so it's all mixed up and even.

The life in the EWC goes to work on it immediately and it waters in better, otherwise quite often it repels water very similar to how chocolate milk powder does.

Top dressing is something you want to be ahead on, not playing catch-up on.

I top dress every Wednesday from 1st uppot or from about week 3 onward if I sprout in big pots.

You don't want a thick layer though, you want the recommended amount sprinkled evenly over the surface, then a layer of ewc just deep enough to cover it, so maybe a quarter inch deep and even across the pot, and then mix it all in with your fingers really well, again checking for crusting, and then gently water it in.

Too much EWC at once will clog the top of the pots.

After applying EWC the surface will always crust up on 1st drydown, thats normal, but if it crusts every drydown even when you haven't applied EWC, thats low calcium starting.

Here is my formula I use for top dressing the blends.

(pot size in gallons) x3 divided by 4= weekly application rate in tablespoons.

So on a 5gal pot it would be (5x3)÷4, so 15÷4 which equals 3.75tbsp per week.

So 3.75 tbbsp sprinkled evenly over the surface with EWC on top, all worked in evenly, and then gently watered.

That is based on most mixes recommending 3tbsp per gallon of soil when adding it to the mix, and it lasts for about 4 weeks, so 3tbsp per gallon per month divided into 4 weekly doses, which is 3/4 of a tbsp per gallon per week.

Round it up and it's 4 tbsp per week.

My Gaia Green mix is very similar to your Elemental Blend for ingredients so it should be very similar in application.

I use Gaia Green Power Bloom if you wish to compare.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I'm not an auto grower so I don't know if auto's are calcium pigs or not, but if the surface of your pot gets crusty when it dries, and you crumble the crust up really well and then after it dries again from the next watering it's crusty again, it's likely that you need calcium.

The 1st crusting after the 1st waterings always happens so pay no attention to that, it's if it crusts every time it dries out that you are looking for. That indicates that magnesium is getting higher in the calcium to magnesium ratio, which means calcium is actually getting lower.

That being said, if you are only mixing the calcium solution to about 50ppm you can use it pretty much every watering if you like.

I follow the soil surface and I also use a refractometer to monitor calcium, but lots of people use low dose CalMag at every watering and have no ill effects.

I have tried that a few times just to see and if you keep it low dose (50ppm) I have never seen it cause harm, other than leaving calcium residue on the cloth pots after the grow is over, but a rinse in a CLR solution and then thru the washing machine without soap cleans that up pretty well.

I do actually. I find top dressing works best if you put it and EWC on together, scratch it into the top inch of the soil really well so it's all mixed up and even.

The life in the EWC goes to work on it immediately and it waters in better, otherwise quite often it repels water very similar to how chocolate milk powder does.

Top dressing is something you want to be ahead on, not playing catch-up on.

I top dress every Wednesday from 1st uppot or from about week 3 onward if I sprout in big pots.

You don't want a thick layer though, you want the recommended amount sprinkled evenly over the surface, then a layer of ewc just deep enough to cover it, so maybe a quarter inch deep and even across the pot, and then mix it all in with your fingers really well, again checking for crusting, and then gently water it in.

Too much EWC at once will clog the top of the pots.

After applying EWC the surface will always crust up on 1st drydown, thats normal, but if it crusts every drydown even when you haven't applied EWC, thats low calcium starting.

Here is my formula I use for top dressing the blends.

(pot size in gallons) x3 divided by 4= weekly application rate in tablespoons.

So on a 5gal pot it would be (5x3)÷4, so 15÷4 which equals 3.75tbsp per week.

So 3.75 tbbsp sprinkled evenly over the surface with EWC on top, all worked in evenly, and then gently watered.

That is based on most mixes recommending 3tbsp per gallon of soil when adding it to the mix, and it lasts for about 4 weeks, so 3tbsp per gallon per month divided into 4 weekly doses, which is 3/4 of a tbsp per gallon per week.

Round it up and it's 4 tbsp per week.

My Gaia Green mix is very similar to your Elemental Blend for ingredients so it should be very similar in application.

I use Gaia Green Power Bloom if you wish to compare.

Thanks very much Gee. I have top dressed and sprinkled a bit of water on top, about 300 ml each. I'll make a decision on the calcium as I go.

 

[Gee64]

Thanks very much Gee. I have top dressed and sprinkled a bit of water on top, about 300 ml each. I'll make a decision on the calcium as I go.

How big are your pots?

 

[Carmen Ray]

How big are your pots?

20 L ( 5 Gal)

 

[Gee64]

Having the same mix in your worm bin as you have cooking into your soil is excellent. When I mix my worm tray ammendments I mix a blend of 25% of what I put into 20 gallons of soil, minus the calciums, into a bucket and thats what I add to the worm farm with all the scraps, plus weed meal. I also use some oyster shell flour for grit.

I should clarify here, I don't dump that whole bucket straight into my worm farm, it's my bulk supply for quite a few trays with each tray getting a third of a cup sprinkled in when the initial tray filling occurs. I mix up about a quart and a half- 2 quarts at a time and store it in canning jars.

 

[Azimuth]

When I mix my worm tray ammendments I mix a blend of 25% of what I put into 20 gallons of soil, minus the calciums,

And why minus the calciums? I would think they would benefit the most from extra breakdown time in the cooking process before further breakdown in the soil.

You can't topdress feed only an entire grow successfully. Eventually in flower the plant will eat faster than compost can work it's way in, so your soil is like a battery, trickle feeding in conjuntion with topdressing.

That makes sense. Same inputs in various stages of breakdown and a steady stream refilling the coffers.

Then with teas you can add more or less of anything you want/need in a fast release method.

I saw a video discussing teas vs extracts and referencing Dr Elaine. They stated that the longer brewing of the tea with food sources was primarily to start establishing the glues that microbes make that help soils' tilth rather than breaking down the inputs.

Here is my formula I use for top dressing the blends.

(pot size in gallons) x3 divided by 4= weekly application rate in tablespoons.

So on a 5gal pot it would be (5x3)÷4, so 15÷4 which equals 3.75tbsp per week.

So 3.75 tbbsp sprinkled evenly over the surface with EWC on top, all worked in evenly, and then gently watered.

Sounds like I need to up my game. I've been doing something similar but using 2  teaspoons per gallon of pot size instead of tablespoons. Part of that was husbanding resources, but I should be able to increase my feedings.

I should clarify here, I don't dump that whole bucket straight into my worm farm, it's my bulk supply for quite a few trays with each tray getting a third of a cup sprinkled in when the initial tray filling occurs. I mix up about a quart and a half- 2 quarts at a time and store it in canning jars.

I do something similar with my potions, making a larger combined bulk storage and that makes it easier to apply multiple inputs in one go.

 

[Azimuth]

I got up early today to take some brix readings just before lights off to see if that would make much difference in my results as I usually take them shortly after lights on for convenience.

Sadly, no joy.

The flowering plant is stuck at 11 with a moderately hazy line. It'll be ready for more water tonight so I'll go with dolo water up top again. Color is still a bit darker than would seem ideal and there were some leaves down low starting to yellow and were crispy which I removed to see if it would spread. I've been doing the dolomite at about 50 ppm but given your comments above I think I'll jack it up to maybe 75 ppm and see if there are any ill effects since it seems like I still need more than I've been giving it. This sounds like the chase you referenced earlier.

My CBG plant in the on-deck circle registered a solid 6 with a very sharply defined line. WTF?!??

That's down from 11 just before the tea, an 8 a couple of days later, and now 6. The castings tea seems to have put things in reverse. It's still not ready for another watering but, given the numbers , I think I'll give it some more castings up top and heavily mist them in.

That plant has the better green color that I expect and looks great so it's interesting that both meters say differently.

Maybe my meter is broken, or needs batteries. Or maybe I need a plug in version for more power!

 

[Gee64]

And why minus the calciums? I would think they would benefit the most from extra breakdown time in the cooking process before further breakdown in the soil.

Too much calcium over-electrifies the soil. I trust EWC to do it and in small pots dolo water.

You can add it as a top dressing if you wish, but most calciums are slow release so you will end up with too much up top and ph will get to 7 and roots won't come up. Tilth gets compromised too. Too much Ca and soil starts to fall apart.

EWC and dolo water both get down into the whole pot quickly.

Small pots usually end up with a larger foliage to pot size ratio, so they move a lot of water, which moves a lot of calcium, relative to pot size. They dry out quickly.

Slow release alone is too slow as all that watering requires more available calcium.

EWC and some form of a CalMag solution works better. I like dolo water, it's almost free and I can mix it as quick as CalMag.

If you want to add calcium to a top dressing gypsum is the safe one, it won't sway PH, and prilled gypsum is fairly quick release so it won't build up as fast.

As for teas, everyone has a different approach and data to back up why their style is best.

I use water, add molasses to feed the microbes, and some dry ammendments. Brew that for 24 hours to make a nice molasses and veggie broth, then toss in the microbes for 24 hours and let the poop fest begin. It works.

I don't get all technical with it, once it hits the soil myco manages it how it see's fit.

If you are relying on liquid feeds, as in organic hydroponics, it gets more nescessary to brew teas differently, but for me it's a microbe boost and some extra food for LOS. Stew it up and pour it in.

Top dressing and ewc in a soup. More balance.