The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Gee64]

Nice! Not many auto's other Than Carmen's get grown in Los. I'm glad it's working.

 

[StoneOtter]

All I can say is you are the only guy yet to nail Sips and Los, so you Go Stone!

Hehe, I'll agree if when I grow the next one and leave top watering alone it grows well. This grow gave me a stab in my confidence! I may have learned some good things though!

You tempt me to top water only but not for a while.

 

[Azimuth]

Myself I would rather have a pot full of feeder roots over a half pot of water roots and a half pot of feeder roots. Perennials and trees are different, they have time to grow both.

I get all feeder roots in my SIPs, no water roots which actually surprises me. And that's with keeping some water in the reservoir so one would think water roots would at least populate the wettest soil.

A lot of Sippers seem to have a hard-wired thingy that makes them keep running into the same wall and expect a different outcome when it comes to Los, and like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure it's because they want it to succeed like it does with synthetics, so they keep trying to force a different outcome thru repetition.

There aren't many growers growing in SIPs comparatively speaking, and and even smaller sliver trying to grow organic in them, so it's not a very large population of testers.

Most growers are having great success with them but they aren't running into the wetness issue because for them it's irrelevant so I think its hard to appreciate the nuances involved with trying to grow with microbes if that's not even on your radar to start with.

Not many have the understanding you do of how all the pieces are connected and how to adjust one aspect based on seemingly unrelated factors.

So, take cloth pots. Nobody contends (that I've seen at least) that there are two very different approaches to growing in them whether you're synthetic or organic so I think it's reasonable, at first blush any way, to not even have on your radar that you should consider treating your SIPs differently.

Then, we get much better growth and super robust plants heading into flower just like everyone else. Once in flower there are signs of issues (a K ask for me) but then I have a one off soil mix and make my own untested nutes so my obvious first thoughts are to my mix or my nutes, not the more basic aspects of pot structure and how it affects microbes.

So, I'm not getting defensive, just trying to work through the issues as best I understand them and the brix and moisture meters have me rethinking my set up. There are aspects to the SIP that I really like and make sense to me so I want to keep them if I can. But ultimately it's about the medicine so that's my ultimate focus.

I'll keep tinkering with my set-up as long as I can work towards improvement keeping the basic concepts in mind.

 

[Gidorah]

All good info. I like what Azi's doing. All my SIP's grows have been LOS and I even found a live worm in my last grow. I hope some new ideas are brought forward. I will start my next SIP's grow around December and hope to be able to contribute to the conversation

 

[Gee64]

All good info. I like what Azi's doing. All my SIP's grows have been LOS and I even found a live worm in my last grow. I hope some new ideas are brought forward. I will start my next SIP's grow around December and hope to be able to contribute to the conversation

I love where Azi is taking this. It's really interesting. I think if you could get worms going round in there cycling everything you could build a really good system.

It's just a matter of balance, and because it's LOS you either have to mimick nature or find a hack that doesn't upset the balance.

Nature wants water from the sky that collects in the aquifers and a Sip is the perfect device to mimick that.

I have a plan, and a pan, and I need the pan for the plan man.

I have 2 clones in cloth pots on days 7 and 4 since flip, so pretty close.

I will put 1 in a pan and let it catch the runoff and we can see if it works out differently.

I will water each the same amount unless 1 needs a different amount for some reason, but otherwise they will get the same amounts.

#2 at Day 7 of Flower. It won't be a perfect comparison because #4 will have air coming in the bottom, but #2 should have much less of a wet/dry cycle.

It's not a Sip, but it's very similar.

 

[Gee64]

RVDV - Day 21, 21, 7, and 3 of Flower.

21 and 21.

3 and 7.

#4 on Day 3.

#2 on day Day 7.

#1

#3

RVDV has such beautiful colas.

 

[Gee64]

Check this out. On May 1st I took the manifold plant out of the tent, it was probably 2 weeks into flower. I sat it in the dark for 3 days then tossed it outside into the compost corner. I found it a couple days ago sort of half revegged and half in flower still, so I potted it into a 20gal pot of compost and used soil.

Lets see where it goes. She's a tough lady. She was bone dry but not wilted. The water stik said zero lol. She looks fine today. I gave her a good dose of myco.

 

[Azimuth]

11 brix today and a top water with dolo water. 2 day interval.

No go on the new SIP build today, need a drill press, or maybe I'll cut it out with a box cutter. But don't need the first one for probably another month.

The next two things I'll test are the new net pot SIP with a smaller soil footer which I hope will keep the soil moist but not wet and,

then likely the net pot SIP with a hydroton footer which I expect will provide a physical link between the soil and water without much of the wicking function. This way the plant can send roots down into the reservoir which I expect it to do with water roots but, by having a poorly wicking footer, the soil above should be minimally affected.

What I want to see is if brix levels are lower with a properly watered (drier) mix but full access by the plant to water. Does excess water availability water down the reading? Or is it a direct function of Microbial activity?

But those are both months down the road.

 

[Gee64]

11 brix today and a top water with dolo water. 2 day interval.

Nice! She's bouncing back. Are you mostly in the green zone on the water stik now?

No go on the new SIP build today, need a drill press, or maybe I'll cut it out with a box cutter. But don't need the first one for probably another month.

The next two things I'll test are the new net pot SIP with a smaller soil footer which I hope will keep the soil moist but not wet and,

then likely the net pot SIP with a hydroton footer which I expect will provide a physical link between the soil and water without much of the wicking function.

I like this, it's outside the box, thats where cool shit pops up. I hope it works.

This way the plant can send roots down into the reservoir which I expect it to do with water roots but, by having a poorly wicking footer, the soil above should be minimally affected.

Be careful swick syndrome doesn't dry the top third of the pot really badly.

What I want to see is if brix levels are lower with a properly watered (drier) mix but full access by the plant to water. Does excess water availability water down the reading?

Sort of. Excess water in the plant causes more nitrogen to be consumed than needed and that will lower brix. So yes, it will.

Or is it a direct function of Microbial activity?

Microbes are 1 of the 5 pillars of brix. Anything that enhances them raises brix, anything that is detrimental to them lowers brix.

But those are both months down the road.

Good times ahead

 

[Gidorah]

I love where Azi is taking this. It's really interesting. I think if you could get worms going round in there cycling everything you could build a really good system.

It's just a matter of balance, and because it's LOS you either have to mimick nature or find a hack that doesn't upset the balance.

Nature wants water from the sky that collects in the aquifers and a Sip is the perfect device to mimick that.

I have a plan, and a pan, and I need the pan for the plan man.

I have 2 clones in cloth pots on days 7 and 4 since flip, so pretty close.

I will put 1 in a pan and let it catch the runoff and we can see if it works out differently.

I will water each the same amount unless 1 needs a different amount for some reason, but otherwise they will get the same amounts.

#2 at Day 7 of Flower. It won't be a perfect comparison because #4 will have air coming in the bottom, but #2 should have much less of a wet/dry cycle.

It's not a Sip, but it's very similar.

This seems like a logical experiment, curious how it works

 

[Azimuth]

Nice! She's bouncing back. Are you mostly in the green zone on the water stik now?

Yes, mostly green. Just starting week three of flower, do you think brix can keep rising or do I mostly live with what I have now?

Be careful swick syndrome doesn't dry the top third of the pot really badly.

Well, planning on top watering that one and the footer shouldn't wick much one way or the other but I really won't know until I try it.

Sort of. Excess water in the plant causes more nitrogen to be consumed than needed and that will lower brix. So yes, it will.

Why would the plant take up more than it needs?? But, if that's the case then limiting the water to some set quantity probably makes sense, but that can't be what it'll drink in a day since it sounds like it will take more than is optimal. Maybe back to 12.5% of pot size?

 

[Gee64]

Yes, mostly green. Just starting week three of flower, do you think brix can keep rising or do I mostly live with what I have now?


Well, planning on top watering that one and the footer shouldn't wick much one way or the other but I really won't know until I try it.


Why would the plant take up more than it needs??

I reread what you said, I think maybe I misunderstood it.

If you mean will a happy high brix plant that is properly watered show higher brix when it drops down to the bottom side of green on the waterstik compared to after watering when it's on the high side of green, no, brix will read the same, but if you mean a wet plant from soggy soil, like yours when we started, it's starting to starve but nitrogen can still be consumed as it needs more water, so that extra nitrogen in it's system will crash brix.

But, if that's the case then limiting the water to some set quantity probably makes sense, but that can't be what it'll drink in a day since it sounds like it will take more than is optimal. Maybe back to 12.5% of pot size?

I like 12.5%. In a 2gal pot I usually water 1 quart of water. But perlite and soil carbon come into play too, so follow what the water stik tells you.

It's really about finding the sweet spot and maintaining it. So frequency of watering comes into play too. Your environment has a big effect on frequency. What you need to guard against is the soil staying wet too long. Thats when O2 gets choked off.

When I'm in flower after stretch and auto watering takes over, I water 6 times a day for 4-8 minutes per watering at a rate of 1gph in a 10gal pot. Thats my Durban schedule for a August- December grow.

Then I also manually water a quart or 2 of fish water every few days.

If VPD gets high I up the auto watering frequency but not the amount per watering. 4 minutes is during the last 2 weeks, 8 minute intervals starting right after stretch.

In small pots the foliage is usually large compared to rootball size so the plant transpires a lot of water so frequency can go up.

Thats why I like the idea of top watering and the sip catching the runoff. It's similar to drippers in effect, all the water stays in the soil.

But really, if you top water to find the volume and frequency that keeps you in the green, putting that amount into the reservoir should work well when cycled with top watering.

So start with 12.5% and if the water stik agrees stick with it. If it's too dry use more, but adding extra to cut down frequency will cause you grief.

I hope that helps, it was hard to type and make sense.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Now this is an experiment that is going to save my butt. Thank you! I've been wanting to see if the aquifer theory works since my last swick grow. I have tubs the same as the one you have used.

 

[Gee64]

I'm not going to leave standing water in the tub, at least I'm going to try not to. If I end up with standing water more than 15 minutes after watering I will use less water on the next watering.

Mostly I'm interested in seeing if the 2 rootballs grow differently, and how brix compares.

Brix may not be a good comparison tho as this Gaia mix has a hard time getting over 15, but it grows good roots.

It's time for a full pot dunk on all 4, so I will do that today and start a tea to feed in 48 hours (I should have started it a couple days ago but life is so busy right now) and we will see how it goes.

 

[Gee64]

11 brix today and a top water with dolo water. 2 day interval.

No go on the new SIP build today, need a drill press, or maybe I'll cut it out with a box cutter. But don't need the first one for probably another month.

The next two things I'll test are the new net pot SIP with a smaller soil footer which I hope will keep the soil moist but not wet and,

then likely the net pot SIP with a hydroton footer which I expect will provide a physical link between the soil and water without much of the wicking function. This way the plant can send roots down into the reservoir which I expect it to do with water roots but, by having a poorly wicking footer, the soil above should be minimally affected.

What I want to see is if brix levels are lower with a properly watered (drier) mix but full access by the plant to water. Does excess water availability water down the reading? Or is it a direct function of Microbial activity?

But those are both months down the road.

How was the calcium line on the 11 reading Azi?

 

[Gee64]

So we've kind of beaten the watering thing to death lately, which is good, as even my watering practices get sloppy so nothing wrong with a tune-up from time to time, but I want to add in one more tidbit that I've mentioned before.

When it's time to water, check the surface of your pots first. It should be dry because it's time to water, so with your finger tips, dig in from about an inch out from the stalk all the way to the pot edges, all the way around, and break the soil up so there is no crusting. Be gentle but thorough.


At about 1 inch deep, or a bit more, you will find roots, but just above the roots there will be soft soil seperating the crust from the roots.

Everything above that soft soil line should be crumbled right up to the texture of new soil and then watered. Smooth it perfect from stalk to pot edge and then water it really evenly and gentle.

Once the water is in, go back and resmooth it without compressing it.

If it crusts over every watering, calcium is low and ewc will fix that (ewc will always go crusty after it's first drydown do break that up but don't worry about that, it's the rest of the times between ewc applications I'm talking about), but otherwise it will likely be crusty the 1st time and thats normal, its all the other times after that that will tell you about the state of calcium, and smoothing it out perfectly will really help both water absorption and air intake.

Be extra diligent around the edges. If the edges are always drier and crustier then you need to start watering slower and make sure you are watering evenly right out to the edges. Otherwise you may end up with dry spots.

The last thing I do when I water is a last lap areound the edges with the spout of the watering can to make sure I am wet right to the edges.

 

[Azimuth]

How was the calcium line on the 11 reading Azi?

A bit fuzzy, but not as much as I like to see so more work to do there.

Can my brix levels continue to rise all the way through flower or is there a point where it's too late to see improvement no matter what is done?

 

[Gee64]

A bit fuzzy, but not as much as I like to see so more work to do there.

Can my brix levels continue to rise all the way through flower or is there a point where it's too late to see improvement no matter what is done?

Yes they can. If you give a plant the 5 things brix requires, and lighting is adequate to power it, with minerals available enough to catalyze it, brix will continue to climb until the DNA of the plant says it simply isn't capable of photosynthesizing any more than it already is. That usually occurs between 19-22 on a sativa but I regularly get 22+ on indicas in Rev's mix with mineral heavy top dressings. That being said, if you defoliate you lower photosynthesis thru simple math. Less solar panels equals less photosynthesis. Too much light will "sunburn" your leaves and again.... less photosynthesis forever from those leaves.

The important part is the fan leaves. If you want to pluck a sugar leaf or 2 go ahead, but fan leaves are there to power things.

Then there is the brix cycle itself.

The leaves photosynthesize sugars and a lot of that sugar (carbon) gets fed to the microbes which in turn makes more poop so the plant eats more and next lap it gives more sugar to the microbes and therefore every lap it increases and brix climb.

Phosphorus fits in here. P carries poop in and sugars out, and some gets eaten by the plant.

P is almost immobile in soil but very mobile in the plant, so it circulates really well and stays put in the soil for a reload of poop after dumping it's sugar.

Too much severs myco so that sucks, but a slow steady supply that starts from birth so the plant can always have enough circulating to run things optimally is vital.

As long as you aren't playing catch-up on P brix will climb indefinitely.

That is the biggest reason I only use "flower" soil and don't use "veg" soil. I want P from day one. Theres always enough nitrogen available so in veg I just keep the soil moister to allow for foliage to be assimilated. Not wet, just moister.

 

[Jon]

This seems like a logical experiment, curious how it works

It's not a Sip, but it's very similar.

Aren’t you simply talking about watering and letting the cloth pot sit in any runoff and soak it up as desired? Thus bottom wicking in a sense? I do it that way. Not always with organics, but always with coco. I understand a SIP is essentially a wicking system, but if that’s all you’re doing (and again, I do this too so I’m not saying a negative thing with “if that’s all you’re doing”), and you’re saying it’s very close to or essentially the same as a SIP, then I’m wondering why anyone bothers with the actual SIP? (Don’t get bent, @Azimuth, lmao). All I see with SIPs is an ultra high level of maintenance and checking and adjusting. This here like you’re doing it is beyond easy. Couldn’t BE easier. So if it’s “pretty close,” then why? What’s better about a SIP that you won’t get doing it as you are here?

 

[Gee64]

Gotta run, I'm fixing stuff again today for needy people. I'll be in and out but around later on.