The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[StoneOtter]

So to clarify, cuz that Azi is such a nitpicker , the mix is 5 gals used soil, 5 gals The Answer soil, 5 gals perlite, 1 cup gypsum, 1 cup oyster shell flower, and 3 cups prilled dolomite.

In another week I will add the 5 gallons of EWC and all the other ammendments and let it cook for about 7 weeks until the current grow is finished.

This gives me 2 weeks to let the calcium dissolve in 1st, and time to get the soil to perfect cooking moisture before adding ammendments.

Unless the cooking seems to be done early, and it's summer and warm so it may cook fast, I'm going to start the seeds 2 weeks earlier in solos and uppot to 10gals to speed the process up a bit.

It will be 2 LC-18's and 2 Wild Ladies all manifolded to 8 and heavily delarfed.

Hopefully they fit. If not I may have to cut some clones and cull a couple.

Why do you wait the week for ewc addition? And the rest?

 

[Gee64]

Why do you wait the week for ewc addition? And the rest?

I look at it the same way synthetic growers mix, get the calcium in 1st, and then I have time to get the moisture just right as well.

I like it in the green zone on the water stik, but on the damper side, so about a 6-6.5 on the water stick. It lets the calcium homogenize in a bit before cooking starts.

The EWC I consider the ammendment activator, so it goes in, gets mixed well, and the ammendments right after. Then the real cooking begins.

I find doing it this way leads to less tip burn if I need to do a root drench to correct a 1st run soil issue.

It also give the used soil time to populate it's microbes before the EWC gets introduced. I don't know if that part has any effect but it's how my brain see's it.

I nurtured them for 16 weeks so I want them to be dominant this grow. They finished in flower, so phosphorus miners were the dominant strain, I need P early to get the brix up in veg.

I want at least a 17 brix in veg before flip, but 20+ is better. Stretch saps a lot of energy.

 

[StoneOtter]

Thanks for that!

 

[Gee64]

RVDV - Day 19, 5, and 2 of Flower.

Day 19 for 1 and 3.

Day 5 and 2 for 2 and 4. Its delarfing time. Only the top 4 colas kept their flower sites.

They look pretty skinny now.

And Day 1 of real soil for these 3. They got uppotted into half gallon pots in Gaia 2.0 mix with Powerbloom and EWC top dressing as well as a generous dusting of the rootball with fresh myco.

They received no used soil. I want to see what they do with as little influence as possible. Just myco and EWC.

 

[Gee64]

Azi, how is the brix project going?

Any signs of thrips still lingering?

How close to harvest are you?

Has their smells increased?

Has watering established a rhythm yet?

Any deficiencies popping up?

Almost time to check brix again.

 

[Gee64]

Brix on the clones is 12-15 and the calcium lines vary from ok-ish to almost crisp.

They will start to get dolomite water once a week at 50ppm. More often if needed.

They will also get a microbe tea consisting of EWC, molasses, and kelp. I'll get the molasses and kelp bubbling later today, toss in the EWC tomorrow, and feed it on Sunday.

Today they will get their 1st dolomite watering, tomorrow will be fish day now, then the tea on Sunday.

They need to be hydrated about 5 days a week and that will only increase for the next 3 weeks. It's going to be twice a day pretty soon. Ughhh.

Small pots....

So much work for so little weed. Oh well, in 6 weeks 2 will be done. Lets hope the mix holds out.... or not.

I want the Gaia mix to work, and it should, but if it fails and I get to get away from these small pots I will not be sad... jus sayin....

 

[Azimuth]

Azi, how is the brix project going?

Just bottom watered yesterday so I'm giving it a couple of days to check. I'll do it tomorrow.

I did check one of the plants in veg when I took clones and I registered a 9 with a pretty defined separation. That's a lot better than the 5 the big plant registered at the beginning of this phase.

Still not quite high enough but making progress.

Any signs of thrips still lingering?

A few along with some mites. Nothing major and I have to be close to a high enough brix level to get to the other side.

How close to harvest are you?

7 weeks

Has their smells increased?

Not noticeably yet.

Has watering established a rhythm yet?

It's been every three days or so and I expect down to two this coming round.

Any deficiencies popping up?

Not yet, but the next few weeks will tell the tale as I usually get past 4 weeks post flip before seeing deficiencies.

Almost time to check brix again.

I'm going to check weekly and will do so again tomorrow .

 

[Gee64]

Just bottom watered yesterday so I'm giving it a couple of days to check. I'll do it tomorrow.

I did check one of the plants in veg when I took clones and I registered a 9 with a pretty defined separation. That's a lot better than the 5 the big plant registered at the beginning of this phase.

Still not quite high enough but making progress.


A few along with some mites. Nothing major and I have to be close to a high enough brix level to get to the other side.


7 weeks


Not noticeably yet.


It's been every three days or so and I expect down to two this coming round.


Not yet, but the next few weeks will tell the tale as I usually get past 4 weeks post flip before seeing deficiencies.


I'm going to check weekly and will do so again tomorrow .

9 is better for sure. If the calcium line isn't nice and fuzzy you need to fix that 1st.

Try your calcium potion perhaps and see if the line gets fuzzy? or dolomote water? or both side by side

Keep it under 100ppm for sure. I like 50-75 myself.

These 1.6gals are out of soil calcium already. I have to work regular dolomite water in now. Likely 50 ppm every 2nd watering.

 

[Gee64]

RVDV - Day 20, 20, 6, and 3 of Flower.

Day 20.

Day 20.

Day 6.

Day 3.

And Day 2 for these ones. The green is coming back. Another week when myco links in will be the real test. Even the runt is starting to green up.

 

[Azimuth]

9 is better for sure. If the calcium line isn't nice and fuzzy you need to fix that 1st.

Try your calcium potion perhaps and see if the line gets fuzzy? or dolomote water? or both side by side

Keep it under 100ppm for sure. I like 50-75 myself.

These 1.6gals are out of soil calcium already. I have to work regular dolomite water in now. Likely 50 ppm every 2nd watering.

I made up some dolomite water so I'll try that in a regular top watering in addition to my top dressing of castings.

Going to try to build the net pot SIP today. The pot bottom is a bit of a challenge where I need to drill it out for the footer cup so I may need to figure out a way to brace the pot to stabilize it while I drill out the hole.

I was thinking more about the water dynamics in organic SIPs and whether or not there is a happy medium.

SIPs grow awesome biomass and some pretty robust plants but anecdotally at least with pretty low brix levels. Seems like we only have a few data points but your, mine and @StoneOtter 's plants all had low readings.

So, the question is why. Do the low brix levels actually indicate an unhealthy plant or is it something else?

Maybe it is because they move so much water into the soil that they fill the hallways with water and the microbes get drowned out from doing their job. This certainly seemed to be the case for me and my small pots.

But why do the plants look so damn good?

So maybe it is something else. Stone had low readings in his much larger Earthboxes with The Rev's soil and, visually at least, some pretty healthy plants. He did calcium through the reservoir to help with those levels.

That got me wondering if the tremendous water movement in these pots actually can produce robust and  healthy plants, but the low brix readings are really only showing the plant sugars are much more diluted with the extra water flow.

I know that those who grow hot peppers get much more heat from those fruits grown in pots allowed to dry out than from those kept fully watered.

So maybe in the case of peppers and our canna plants, the goodies are still all there, it's just the readings are diluted and they will all shine through after drying and curing?

That got me thinking about the SIP footer and it's function in these pots. If it is a matter of just temporarily diluted brix readings, then keeping the footer in full production mode might work best, but maybe change the pot dynamics a bit with a taller footer. Give the plant access to the subterranean water source via adventurous roots, but have the footer far enough away that it's wicking action doesn't reach the main pot.

In that way the plant gets all the water it wants without compromising the microbes' ability to do their job because of overly wet soil.

So, keep the water access, without as much of the wicking function. LOS growers keeping their mix constantly moist through drippers seem to do just fine in the brix department so that leads me to think it's not water access but compromised Microbial action due to overly wet soil.

In my case with very short pots maybe the answer is a smaller footer since I can't go taller, or maybe a poorer wicking material like big chunky perlite/hydroton but that's something I'll try to test in the future.

I think I'll fill a 1L SIP with hydroton clay balls and see how high the water wicks over a few days.

 

[Jon]

I’m reading along without comment as I often do here. But I have a question if I may, @Gee64 and @Azimuth - this is sort of SIP related.

It seems to me so far that much of getting organics “right” is about how closely we can mimic the natural behavior of the microbes in the natural environment. We are attempting to duplicate nature, correct?

So if that is so, it would seem to me that the best way to “figure it out” is in static soil pots. Versus a water assist grow like a SIP, for example. Or even a hydro grow. Wouldn’t that be the closest approximation to the natural environment?

It also seems to me that much of this discussion is about figuring out how to get the microbes to behave the same way in a SIP setting as they would in a static soil setting. Is that also the case?

If so that implies that the microbes do not always behave the same depending on the manner in which they are fed. Is that also the case?

Guess that was more than one, and I really hope I’m not wasting space in the thread. Thanks.

 

[StoneOtter]

I made up some dolomite water so I'll try that in a regular top watering in addition to my top dressing of castings.

Going to try to build the net pot SIP today. The pot bottom is a bit of a challenge where I need to drill it out for the footer cup so I may need to figure out a way to brace the pot to stabilize it while I drill out the hole.

I was thinking more about the water dynamics in organic SIPs and whether or not there is a happy medium.

SIPs grow awesome biomass and some pretty robust plants but anecdotally at least with pretty low brix levels. Seems like we only have a few data points but your, mine and @StoneOtter 's plants all had low readings.

So, the question is why. Do the low brix levels actually indicate an unhealthy plant or is it something else?

Maybe it is because they move so much water into the soil that they fill the hallways with water and the microbes get drowned out from doing their job. This certainly seemed to be the case for me and my small pots.

But why do the plants look so damn good?

So maybe it is something else. Stone had low readings in his much larger Earthboxes with The Rev's soil and, visually at least, some pretty healthy plants. He did calcium through the reservoir to help with those levels.

That got me wondering if the tremendous water movement in these pots actually can produce robust and  healthy plants, but the low brix readings are really only showing the plant sugars are much more diluted with the extra water flow.

I know that those who grow hot peppers get much more heat from those fruits grown in pots allowed to dry out than from those kept fully watered.

So maybe in the case of peppers and our canna plants, the goodies are still all there, it's just the readings are diluted and they will all shine through after drying and curing?

That got me thinking about the SIP footer and it's function in these pots. If it is a matter of just temporarily diluted brix readings, then keeping the footer in full production mode might work best, but maybe change the pot dynamics a bit with a taller footer. Give the plant access to the subterranean water source via adventurous roots, but have the footer far enough away that it's wicking action doesn't reach the main pot.

In that way the plant gets all the water it wants without compromising the microbes' ability to do their job because of overly wet soil.

So, keep the water access, without as much of the wicking function. LOS growers keeping their mix constantly moist through drippers seem to do just fine in the brix department so that leads me to think it's not water access but compromised Microbial action due to overly wet soil.

In my case with very short pots maybe the answer is a smaller footer since I can't go taller, or maybe a poorer wicking material like big chunky perlite/hydroton but that's something I'll try to test in the future.

I think I'll fill a 1L SIP with hydroton clay balls and see how high the water wicks over a few days.

I got a 7 last week or the week before on the Purple Ghost Candy at cover removal. Since then I've done a few things to maybe change the dynamics in there. Like top watering with amended water and wet dry top days and bottom days. This week I'll take another brix reading and see if it moved. The plant still looks perfect to me and we may have saved it from the peril the other tent ran into. 7 brix though!

 

[Gee64]

I made up some dolomite water so I'll try that in a regular top watering in addition to my top dressing of castings.

Going to try to build the net pot SIP today. The pot bottom is a bit of a challenge where I need to drill it out for the footer cup so I may need to figure out a way to brace the pot to stabilize it while I drill out the hole.

I was thinking more about the water dynamics in organic SIPs and whether or not there is a happy medium.

SIPs grow awesome biomass and some pretty robust plants but anecdotally at least with pretty low brix levels. Seems like we only have a few data points but your, mine and @StoneOtter 's plants all had low readings.

So, the question is why. Do the low brix levels actually indicate an unhealthy plant or is it something else?

Maybe it is because they move so much water into the soil that they fill the hallways with water and the microbes get drowned out from doing their job. This certainly seemed to be the case for me and my small pots.

But why do the plants look so damn good?

So maybe it is something else. Stone had low readings in his much larger Earthboxes with The Rev's soil and, visually at least, some pretty healthy plants. He did calcium through the reservoir to help with those levels.

That got me wondering if the tremendous water movement in these pots actually can produce robust and  healthy plants, but the low brix readings are really only showing the plant sugars are much more diluted with the extra water flow.

I know that those who grow hot peppers get much more heat from those fruits grown in pots allowed to dry out than from those kept fully watered.

So maybe in the case of peppers and our canna plants, the goodies are still all there, it's just the readings are diluted and they will all shine through after drying and curing?

That got me thinking about the SIP footer and it's function in these pots. If it is a matter of just temporarily diluted brix readings, then keeping the footer in full production mode might work best, but maybe change the pot dynamics a bit with a taller footer. Give the plant access to the subterranean water source via adventurous roots, but have the footer far enough away that it's wicking action doesn't reach the main pot.

In that way the plant gets all the water it wants without compromising the microbes' ability to do their job because of overly wet soil.

So, keep the water access, without as much of the wicking function. LOS growers keeping their mix constantly moist through drippers seem to do just fine in the brix department so that leads me to think it's not water access but compromised Microbial action due to overly wet soil.

In my case with very short pots maybe the answer is a smaller footer since I can't go taller, or maybe a poorer wicking material like big chunky perlite/hydroton but that's something I'll try to test in the future.

I think I'll fill a 1L SIP with hydroton clay balls and see how high the water wicks over a few days.

OK 1st you can't compare organic sips to synthetic sips, so any synthetic sips that get explosive growth, remove those from the equation. Sips are a hydroponic system. Synthetics love hydroponics, so it's an unfair comparison.

So now you are left with LOS grows. Now the question is "Do Sips outperform vegetative growth vs cloth pots in a LOS environment?"

The answer is yes and no.

If you water properly cloth pots are very explosive but if you don't, Sips is likely to exceed conventional. If you go from a conventional plastic pot to either a sip or a cloth pot you get explosive from both. It's not unique to sips, it's because conventional plastic pots are the worst option of the 3. So don't confuse that, sips didn't invent explosive, cloth did and plastic pot guys figured out that 2 air chambers, surface and subterranean, were better than 1. It's the added air that makes Sipscexplode, not the bottom watering. Top watering a Sip will work even better than bottom watering one. I still can't believe you guys haven't tested this yet. Stoner logic has you believing Sips are about water delivery. Its about air delivery.

The problem with Sips occurs in flower for most because far less water is required as far less nitrogen is being assimilated. Far more oxygen and atmospheric nitrogen is required.

The problem understanding why Sips work for some and not for others is because synthetics and Los get mixed up in the thought patterns.

As for brix, Calcium, oxygen, phosphorus, carbon, and microbes, those are what raise brix.

Looks are deceiving. Steroids and silicone create gorgeous humans.... that catch a cold and die orcdevelopba "rare" cancer that is all.

Brix are no different.

It's an indicator of photosynthesis which creates sugars which build immunities by feeding the soil microbes exactly as a good diet builds a good gut biome in humans, which is the biggest factor in human immunity.

But a perfectly healthy human still may lose a beauty pagent to a silicone 'roid monkey....

 

[Gee64]

I’m reading along without comment as I often do here. But I have a question if I may, @Gee64 and @Azimuth - this is sort of SIP related.

It seems to me so far that much of getting organics “right” is about how closely we can mimic the natural behavior of the microbes in the natural environment. We are attempting to duplicate nature, correct?

100%.

So if that is so, it would seem to me that the best way to “figure it out” is in static soil pots. Versus a water assist grow like a SIP, for example. Or even a hydro grow. Wouldn’t that be the closest approximation to the natural environment?

again, 100%

It also seems to me that much of this discussion is about figuring out how to get the microbes to behave the same way in a SIP setting as they would in a static soil setting. Is that also the case?

Sort of but yes. The sort of is reducing water to allow microbes to breathe. They ARE aerobic microbes, not anaerobic. They breathe in oxygen and exhale CO2. Plants breath in CO2 and exhale Oxygen. There may be a correlation there, like less soil oxygen leads to less CO2, both of which are part of the 5 main components of brix.

If so that implies that the microbes do not always behave the same depending on the manner in which they are fed. Is that also the case?

Yes. And all food for the plant needs to be attached to an oxygen molecule in order for the plant to recognize it as food, so too much water leads to not enough air and starvation sets in.

Guess that was more than one, and I really hope I’m not wasting space in the thread. Thanks.

Nothing in here is a waste. Every question helps others so it's a good question. How's your California Soil blend doing? Happy with the plants?

 

[Gidorah]

Lol, well thats a good way sayings things!

 

[Gee64]

I got a 7 last week or the week before on the Purple Ghost Candy at cover removal. Since then I've dom=ne a few things to maybe change the dynamics in there. Like top way=tering with amended water and wet dry top days and bottom days. This week I'll take another brix reading and see if it moved. The plant still looks perfect to me and we may have saved it from the peril the other tent ran into. 7 brix though!

All I can say is you are the only guy yet to nail Sips and Los, so you Go Stone!

 

[Plbgbuttcrack]

 

[Azimuth]

Top watering a Sip will work even better than bottom watering one. I still can't believe you guys haven't tested this yet.

Why, because we're already 4 weeks into this experiment? Give it a chance. Were still trying to narrow done the parameters that need testing. The top watering thing  is something we have started testing.

Also, there aren't very many of us growing organic with SIP so there's a limited pool of potential testers.

Stoner logic has you believing Sips are about water delivery. Its about air delivery.

I'm not convinced that that's exclusionary. I've touted the added air input from the early days of Sip Club, but I still believe the water reservoir is a positive factor, or can be. Someone (ResDog maybe?) had a time-lapse comparison that showed no slow down in growth on a SIP while a conventional plant had periodic stalls when the pot dried down.

So maybe air delivery is the primary advantage in plastic pots, but steady access to water also plays a positive positive roll or you guys wouldn't be doing drip irrigation. Maybe a reservoir isn't as efficient as drip, but it is an alternative for some.

I can see top watering as the primary source, but figuring out the reservoir dynamics is something I want to try to nail down.

The problem understanding why Sips work for some and not for others is because synthetics and Los get mixed up in the thought patterns.

I'm not putting both in the same bucket. I'm only looking at organic style growers for the narrower path some of us are taking.

I agree that there are different rules that likely apply, but we haven't figured those out yet. We have some ideas of what they might be, but testing them in various forms would be required.

But a perfectly healthy human still may lose a beauty pagent to a silicone 'roid monkey....

I'm not looking for the biggest plants, in fact I prefer smaller ones. But I do want healthy which is why I'm intrigued by both the water and brix meters.

So, maybe a different way to ask the question is, would a healthy drip irrigated plant and a wet/dry cycle plant show the same brix levels? Do brix levels change based on watering day vs day after? And if it's higher on the day after (everything else equal) is that a soil/microbe function or a plant tissue saturation difference?

 

[Gee64]

Why, because we're already 4 weeks into this experiment? Give it a chance. Were still trying to narrow done the parameters that need testing. The top watering thing  is something we have started testing.

Also, there aren't very many of us growing organic with SIP so there's a limited pool of potential testers.


I'm not convinced that that's exclusionary. I've touted the added air input from the early days of Sip Club, but I still believe the water reservoir is a positive factor, or can be. Someone (ResDog maybe?) had a time-lapse comparison that showed no slow down in growth on a SIP while a conventional plant had periodic stalls when the pot dried down.

So maybe air delivery is the primary advantage in plastic pots, but steady access to water also plays a positive positive roll or you guys wouldn't be doing drip irrigation. Maybe a reservoir isn't as efficient as drip, but it is an alternative for some.

I can see top watering as the primary source, but figuring out the reservoir dynamics is something I want to try to nail down.


I'm not putting both in the same bucket. I'm only looking at organic style growers for the narrower path some of us are taking.

I agree that there are different rules that likely apply, but we haven't figured those out yet. We have some ideas of what they might be, but testing them in various forms would be required.


I'm not looking for the biggest plants, in fact I prefer smaller ones. But I do want healthy which is why I'm intrigued by both the water and brix meters.

So, maybe a different way to ask the question is, would a healthy drip irrigated plant and a wet/dry cycle plant show the same brix levels? Do brix levels change based on watering day vs day after? And if it's higher on the day after (everything else equal) is that a soil/microbe function or a plant tissue saturation difference?

All very valid points. And every comment I make about Sipping, unless I say synthetics, is about the sips/Los combination. Not dissing sips at all, I think they are intriguing, just not how Mother nature grows annuals. Los is a Mother Nature system. Doesn't mean it can't be done.

I am surprised tho that no sippers have tried filling the res via top watering.

I'm just guessing but I think a lot of people who try sips do it because they feel it's a way to just load the res and not have to water for a week, when it's actually a way to double air intake in a hard pot.

Myself I would rather have a pot full of feeder roots over a half pot of water roots and a half pot of feeder roots. Perennials and trees are different, they have time to grow both.

I too strive to keep plants smaller. Growing sativas indoors is challenging with only an 8' ceiling, so 6 feet of grow space.

I have found wet/dry in veg grows the best feeder roots, and drippers in flower to hold moisture at the sweet spot produce better buds, so I hand water until stretch is over.

But at the end of the day whichever way is the way you enjoy the most then thats the right way.

I just saw so many sippers all with the same week4-of-flower problem so I figured they needed a hand, and I really want to see your potions shine, thats my skin in the game if I'm being honest.

A lot of Sippers seem to have a hard-wired thingy that makes them keep running into the same wall and expect a different outcome when it comes to Los, and like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure it's because they want it to succeed like it does with synthetics, so they keep trying to force a different outcome thru repetition.

All they need is drier soil and top watering to encourage feeder roots and cycle calcium. Leave everything else the same.

I sense you getting defensive, I wasn't hacking or anything, I hope it didn't come across like that. There are a lot of people that lurk both here and at Sip club that can now be better armed to use Los and a Sip just by watching our conversation go back and forth. That saves us both a lot of typing.

I wish I had a 10gal sip pot. I'd love to grow one with only top watering.

 

[Jon]

100%.

again, 100%

Sort of but yes. The sort of is reducing water to allow microbes to breathe. They ARE aerobic microbes, not anaerobic. They breathe in oxygen and exhale CO2. Plants breath in CO2 and exhale Oxygen. There may be a correlation there, like less soil oxygen leads to less CO2, both of which are part of the 5 msin components of brix.

Yes. And all food for the plant needs to be attached to an oxygen molecule in order for the plant to recognize it as fokd, so too much water leads to notvenoigh air and starvation sets in.

Nothing in here is a waste. Every question helps others so it's a good question. How's your California Soil blend doing? Happy with the plants?

Thanks so much Gee, you do make it welcoming for anyone who doesn’t have super thin skin. Lmao. I appreciate the response. And yes, surprisingly, I haven’t even had to consider calmag. The blue dream is so small if’s irrelevant and not a test. But the Strawberry Banana is the largest auto I’ve ever produced from soil. It’s huge. And beyond healthy. She has every leaf she’s ever made, and even the very lowest fans at the base are still fully and properly green. She’s a great test for my current blend. Apparently I could be worse at this. So her amendments have been: EWC, Wholly Mackerel, Kelp Me Kelp You, RGR, and Blue Planet Seaweed supplement. That’s my secret weapon for flower. She’s in flower and has some of the most impressive colas I’ve ever made. Thanks for asking.