THC Bomb & WW/Skunk - CFL Hood/Veg HPS/Flower

Skybound said:
If the light is on the side, but slightly elevated from the tops growing horizontally, my guess is that the tops will stretch to get a more advantageous position to receive light. If that holds merit, I would then keep adding to that cardboard as the plant grows to keep all the tops stretching for that better light exposure. I expect the side branches will reach the max point I want before the sides get all the way out to the walls, so I will add my T5 2' strip right on top of them to hopefully hold them in position and give more time for the main stems after the flux to stretch as far as I need them to. I am also planning to use a board with 2 - 3.5" holes cut into the center. This will hold the solo cups in a fixed position and allow me to anchor the binders to and not worry what will happen when the metal begins to oxidize in the grow medium.
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...THIS is exactly what I am talking about. It's like you took the words right out of my head and typed them on this forum. I'm holding on to shear instincts while saying that this method of 'light training' will indeed prove to be very useful in manipulating growth with very little stress.

I wonder if will be able to get 'plant sadists' like Light Addict to start using a little less torture, while providing the same results, haha ;)
 
you could even use some sort of tubing, it would be totally dark inside the tubing and as long as the light was not shining directly in the end of the tubes then they should stretch like crazy, i know if i have a small plant in my room and the others are tall and blocking the light so its in the shade then the node spacing is huge and the plant gets lanky real quick,

so im wondering if you could use some sort of cardboard tube that can be cut off once its reached where it needs to reach, im pretty sure its its dark inside the tube with no direct light shining in the ends then surely this has to make the plant stretch to reach the light.

@AG, ill come over and get subd to your journal, be interesting to see what the results are, might even lead to some new method of fluxxing, it would certainly speed things up a bit and keep the veg time down
 
>>>so im wondering if you could use some sort of cardboard tube that can be cut off once its reached where it needs to reach, im pretty sure its its dark inside the tube with no direct light shining in the ends then surely this has to make the plant stretch to reach the light.

I was pondering on the same thing. I am currently playing with CFLs and HPS for the experiment. This will throw in the question of whether or not light intensity could be used here instead of actual physical light barriers.

Theoretically, using light blockers would constitute to more stretch since it is being blocked by direct light. The plant would have to 'stretch' its way to reach the light. The only problem I saw with this is that in an enclosed environment, the branch that is being manipulated would need constant air circulation to avoid the branch from sweating. I don't know if it is related, but when I was trying to force my previous male Bubblelicious plant to show sex during veg I used the method of covering a single branch from light for 12 hours, while the rest of the plant was in a normal 18/6 schedule. This is a method said proven to work by others. I used an opaque, non-breathable material to cover this one branch and found the results the opposite of what I was expecting. The covered branch, instead of showing signs of flowering, and stretching for more light, the branch was noticeably stunted in growth and it always come out sweating.

So having a completely closed light block, like a tube, probably won't be as effective.

But now if we completely remove the 'light blocker' concept and implement light intensity, we have a little more room to play with. The questions I have been asking myself are:

Will more intense light (like an HID) at a close distance slow growth compared to the same intensity of light at a further distance?

Now we all know that this is true, thus the reason behind 'stretching' to reach for the light.

Now will a less intense light (CFL) at a farther distance create more stretch than a higher intensity light (HID) at a farther distance?

Now the answer to this question is what I am really after. If this proves to work out the way I think it will, then controlling branch length will be no more than placing an a CFL closer to a part of the plant to slow its growth and allow the parts not under direct CFL light (or farther away) to catch up. Now the idea of intensity plays a role on wither this will work, which leads me to my final question:

Because if I just place the CFL directly over one branch, will it necessarily slow the growth of anything sufficiently near it? Or will these other parts of the plant start to stretch for the more intense light (the HID)?

Now the enclosed light tube you mentioned is a good idea, but I was thinking of implementing it a different way. Maybe an enclosed lighting tube for the CFLs to sit in, and only direct light to a specific point of the plant. Theoretically creating pinpoints of light to be shown on a specific section of plant.

But yea, that is almost everything that I have going on concerning 'light manipulation'. I would love to hear your inputs on these matters as I know you are another very experiment savvy grower. If this proves not to work out as planned, then at least we would have gotten some data from the results!

..
 
im thinking cardboard would be open both ends so would not need an air supply, both ends would be open plus card is breathable, something like a kitchen roll card might work,

well ill tell you what i have found with cfls, if you only have 1 or 2 very low watt cfls like 23 watt then this sort of keeps the plants in a sort of suspended animation, growth is pretty much none existant if you use a couple of low watt cfls and have them some distances from the plant, so im thinking the light source is to weak and is not triggering something in the plant to force it to reach the light,

now with my hid i i got my flowering plants in their now and i threw a seed in one of the pots and it never sprouted so forgot about it and planted another, this seed then stretched like crazy because it was not getting any light but clearly it could tell the bright light was just above canopy level, so this seedling stretched like crazy, had no side branching at all they just did not grow more than half in inch until it had reached canopy level,

so im thinking you would need to use the hid but keep the part you want to stretch in the shade but so it can tell where the light is comining from, this is why i was thinking the tube would work as it would be pretty dark in the tube but at the end you want the plant to grow out of it would be very bright so the plant would be encouraged to grow towards the light as quick as possible as it what it does in nature to survive.

by all means give the cfls a try but i get more stretch from my hps then i do with cfls, i dont start seedlings or clones under my dual spec hps because the seedlings stretch and fall over because their to far from the hps, but with cfls if the light is close enough then the seedlings stay short and bush out, but if the cfls are to far away growth is none existent and plants sort of stay small, ive got 2 cfls in my clone room and because my flowering plants have taken so long ive had to leave plants under just 2cfls, growth is pretty much none existent, the plants are growing very slow and not stretching towards the cfl which is about 6 inchs from the tops of the plants and clones.

so from my own experience id have to say the plant needs to grow to the brightest light possible, so having it shaded under a hid would encourage to grow towards the light a lot quicker, at least this is the impression im getting from my light, this seedling grew 2ft with no side branches all because the other flowering plants had it in the shade, it never got direct light from the hid until it grew above the other plants.

i think cfls would possibly end up taking longer to veg to achieve the same results, but ive not tried exactly what your talking about so im not saying dont try it im just giving you the info on what i have seen with my own plants,

hope thats some help to you, maybe you can try both over a couple of grows and see what works best, but i think if i was going to try it myself id use the hid as the light the plant is trying to get to is much brighter,

or if i was going to try it with cfls then id train the plant into a tube and have the cfl at the ends of the tubes, maybe that would work the same as the hid but if the light was shining into the shaded part or tube then it would need speed up the stretch.
 
AG, I believe your really on to something here. It's damn near common-sense. I've been paying attention to you on this subject in your journal & a few others.
 
I think AG will find favorable results with his experiment.

As for the flux cover idea, I think the paper towel tube would suffice as a light blocker, as long as ties were used to bind the plant. My only concern with the flux technique is how much veg time (if any) would would be added? Thankfully for me, each branch can only go about 14" before I allow them to finally stretch for the light. I only have a single 20watt T5 2' strip, so if my budget don't recover by then, I will just suspend the T5 in the middle to assist lower parts of the cola.
 
THIS...

donpaul.p said:
well ill tell you what i have found with cfls, if you only have 1 or 2 very low watt cfls like 23 watt then this sort of keeps the plants in a sort of suspended animation, growth is pretty much none existant if you use a couple of low watt cfls and have them some distances from the plant, so im thinking the light source is to weak and is not triggering something in the plant to force it to reach the light,
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... is EXACTLY the data I need. As I have said, what you experienced with the CFLs and 'suspended-growth' is exactly what I am trying to achieve as well. To be a little more clearer on the subject, I think you might have misunderstood my research goals. I want to implement both HID and CFL, using them in conjunction. I am hoping for little to no growth from the branches exposed 3-4inches from the CFLs. While on the other side of my plant, there is branch about the same height that is about 20 inches form my HID.

Now the real test will come when I see the results; I am hoping that the branch under the CFL won't notice the superior HID light located 16 inches above the CFL. In this case, I am looking to see if the branch will just ignore the CFL (which, in your experience, causes it to slow growth tremendously) and grow towards the HID. If this is the case then some sort of light blockers will be needed.

Thanks for giving me a little more insight on the matter, Don Paul. +Reps.

>>>AG, I believe your really on to something here. It's damn near common-sense. I've been paying attention to you on this subject in your journal & a few others.

I am glad you have been following along with me. I think it is time to start posting progress of this in my journal...well maybe not 2 in the morning :snooze:

>>>My only concern with the flux technique is how much veg time (if any) would would be added?

Hey Sky, from what I remember asking Light Addict, he said that he had been vegging for a little under a month, and plans to keep in veg for another 7-8weeks. PLEASE go over there and confirm as I am just going off of memory, and if I remember correctly, MY memory is not all that good. But if it is the case, you are looking at 5 month harvest from seed. This was actually what sparked my recent experimentation, trying to avoid and cut back on the extra veg time. Now if Light ends up with some really nice results with the extended period, then I will be a happy man ;)
 
Update (12) RD12.

I just fed the ww/skunk almost 75 ml of the 30% strength Flora 3 part. As per Capn's suggestion, I added a little Aqua Shield into the mix, and PPMs held. I added 5 ml aqua shield, and there is still 3/4 of the gallon remaining. I am noticing that the Jean Gal is drinking a lot. The cotyledons are starting to be consumed and there is a mild rippling to them which suggests that. I am slowly increasing the amount of water I add to this plant until the amount is high enough to divide by 2, then I will water it twice a day for a while. I don't know when I will make an actual res and finally program that timer (as per AG's video) to begin feeding at specific times. Any suggestions for frequency of feeding and for how long each feed is to be? There are 8 programmable slots in the timer and I think up to 3 minutes on time per slot. At my disposal, I have a 160 GPH or a 550 GPH pump, but I think the 160 will be more than enough to feed 2 plants. I will likely concoct a split res (2 separate containers) under my box as there is 9" height down there I could use. Then I can make a dedicated drain tray in the box and have it spill to another tote or bucket under itself.

The Heisenberg Tea will be mature enough to feed in about 3 hours. I just checked the PH and it read 4.8. I don't want to meddle with anything despite that low pH. I'll just mentally write it off as balancing the medium b/c I PHed my nutes last night before bed and rechecked when I woke up (about 5 hours later) and the PH climbed right back up to around 6.5-6.7. So that 4.8 should bring the medium PH to about 5.3 (give or take) and future feedings should bring it slowly to the happy zone of 5.8. My thought is that maybe one part of the success of this tea leads to the PH being swung from the low 5.0 range to the mid 6.5 range, allowing for a broader consumption of available nutrients. Think about it, most growers (that I have seen on the internet) adjust their res to the happy 5.8, but from this point the PH usually climbs or drops in numerical value which then blocks out the elements on the other end of the chart which further is complicated b/c too much of one nutrient can lock out others. So by using the tea, bring the ph to the low end of the happy zone and slowly allowing it to climb inside the grow medium allows the roots to have access to the nutes that are available in that specific ph value, then when the ph climbs, the roots are then opened up to other nutrients that become available by the PH climb. That's how it makes sense in my mind anyway.

Nutrient_Availability_chart.JPG
 
Man you guys are getting crazy on me but I like they way you are thinking.

Keeping the light far away will create a lanky plant (tall and skinny) and will slow growth OVERALL. That's exactly what we DON'T want when we are shaping a plant for scrog. We want to keep it as SHORT and bushy as possible. In addition, we want all branches to reach the screen. Having to cut off lower branches is a waste. Most of what you're discussing does make sense though. It's not always the best idea to purposely try to get light to lower branches, because it will make them more bushy and not as tall, and then they must be cut off because they will never reach the screen.

The lower branches WILL get long and lanky (few bud sites), because they are shaded... but that's ok, any lower buds wouldn't get light anyway, we are only looking for them to reach the screen and have a nice top. Again, it's not always beneficial in the early stages to "LST" or purposely put light to lower branches... as you WILL slow them down. A christmas tree wouldn't be wider on the bottom if it got the same light that the top does :-)

Here are a couple pictures I took for AG on this topic. Here is a plant where you see I have heavily shaded lower branches. It is very temping to adjust it so they get light. See how they are completely shaded by giant fan leaves?


But I leave it alone, and those lower branches blast right through the fan leaves, looking for light. 6 days later:


Topping has a lot to do with this too, and it's a great way to slow down the tall branches and let the lower ones catch up. Auxins are re-distributed when we top, and that helps give those lower tops more power to grow.

Our ultimate goal is the biggest yield we can get, and the most effective way to a large final yield is the SIZE of the plant when we go to flower. If you're serious about yield, you should be serious about your veg game. And I can tell you guys are. I admit, I have been paying more attention to flower lately, instead of veg. I'm getting ready to take down a plant in flower, and my next biggest plant in veg won't be ready... wasting valuable time :-(
 
Another factor to deal with in some situations is confined grow spaces, and that is what sold me to the thought of forcing the plant outward immediately. Just as Light Addict's featured flux plant is stretching sideways about 1"-2" off the top of the medium, this will allow him to make better use of his space b/c from that level upwards can all be used for flowering. Don't get me wrong, of course I want as large of a yield as I can get, but currently 30" x 16" (hopefully soon 28" x 28") is a very limited space to flower 2 plants in, and unfortunately the current space wont fit the air cooled hood, so I'd need at least a tube. My train of thought is to recognize that pulling a pound from both plants is highly unlikely, but I feel that if I evenly space choice branches, each that has been preselected in veg could potentially yield the most. If I get 2 plants into flower at the same time, then each will only need to fill either a 8" x 30", or 16" x 15" space. The flux will allow me to stay as close to the ground as possible and maximize vertical potential.
 
Looking good Sky. ;)

About the stretch, In my first grow I started the seedlings under the LED lights and the node spacing was insanely tight, to the point it was hard to train the girls the way I wanted.
When I took clones and put them under the T5 lighting, they had a nice stretch which has made it much easier to LST them while they are young. Now that the clones are a reasonable size (and I harvested), I transplanted them into the closet under LED lights and we'll see how they grow. I'm thinking its gonna be a steller grow. (fingers crossed)

Good luck with your new grow.;)
 
the reason we line the grow area with reflective material such as Mylar or black and white plastic "panda plastic" is to maximize the amount of light we provide to the whole plant. as the distance from our light source increases the Lumens already drop. for indoor growing this is why Compact Florescent Lights produce the smallest plants, LED lights produce medium size plants and High Intensity Discharge lights produce the largest plants. Yield is a factor of how much light is provided for a plant to grow. we can see that with seedlings that are provided only a small amount of light stretch and fall over, plants provided with large amounts of light grow short internodes. plants grown with natural sunlight can grow very large.
 
stealthgrow said:
In my first grow I started the seedlings under the LED lights and the node spacing was insanely tight,
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I'm thinking those little 9 LED panels just found an application. Sounds like they'd be excellent to use along with AG's experiments. Gonna start looking for decent cheapos, links to any (within :420: guidelines) are welcome.
 
(13)/RD13

I fed another 100ml of 30% juice to the ww/skunk. She is looking ok, a bit light in color, but growing out nicely. I noticed ever since I added the 5ml of aqua shield, the mixed nutes developed a feign but foul odor in the jug. Don't know if that's natural, but I'm gonna scrap that jug and mix up a new batch for next feeding time tonight or tomorrow. Also, for some reason, the PH was nearly impossible to lower. It wanted to stay around 6.3, and I used both vinegar and PH down to force it down. I added more of both than I feel comfortable with. I also think I'm gonna top it when the 4th node starts to push out, I will cut just above the 2nd node. I just want to ensure that there is adequate surface area on the remaining leaves to be able to support growth. I also hope the roots have grown substantially by that time to really use the tea up. I have a junk bush out back of my house that I will dump the tea left overs on all winter long. Who knows, maybe it will grow next spring better than everything else? More shade for me, let's hope.

I opened the seed blanket (wet paper towel in ziplock) and found that the shell did crack open, and there is the tiniest of white flesh working it's way out, but I want more, so I carefully wrapped it back up, sealed the baggie, folded it and stuffed it in an empty cig pack and placed back on the heat mat. For the past day, I've been soaking and adjusting PH of another cup of RW cubes. I was hoping to transplant today, but what are ya gonna do? Hopefully this time tomorrow will be enough time for the THC Bomb seed to come out of the shell a little bit more. Also sucks b/c the tea will be dead tomorrow so this seedling will have to wait till next tuesday to get a drink of that good good tea. Here's pics;

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To carry over what AG was saying;

AfricanGrower said:
In that case I would simplify your approach.

Based on what I have learned so far, I wouldn't mess with the light cycles until I can better understand intensity and placement.

You basically want to achieve a rail of symmetrical branches going along the flux, and for the first few sets of branches not to out grow the others, right? If I were in your shoes I would grow out a flux with with about 4 nodes, which is where Light Addict is at now. At that time to prevent inner sets of branches from growing at the same pace I would place CFLs on these sections, and just put the HPS above the general area of the plant. Based on what I know so far, the parts directly lit by the CFL will slow growth, while the main growth continues to reach for the HID. Now you might run into the same problems, I think I am facing, where the CFL lit branches notice that there is a more intense light above it and grow pass the CFL. In my case the twin cola branch that started reaching for the HID still shows significantly slower growth compared to the rest of the plant.

I think Don Paul's idea of light blockers will really help shade the main growth's from the HID, causing them to stretch faster than the rest of the plant. I would also top the main growth a week before I go into flower to maximize colas.

I just reread that, and I could imagine someone having a hard time visualizing what I am saying, so I will post a diagram of what I am talking about later today in your journal.
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I read you loud and clear. I currently have a 2' T5 20 watt floro that I can use to manage on side or both in the middle. Hopefully by then I will have gotten another 2' T5. In conjunction with the use of maybe a light blocker, side lighting, HID on top and a good amount of reflection to the sides, maybe it will boom with growth. Details to be worked out later though.
 
Subbed Skybound...I am also growing a THC bomb...I got just one seed to try it out in my grow...it started out horrible...slow growth badly twisted leaves...I wrote it off and through it into flower 1 1/2 weeks before my other plants to free up space in my smaller grow tent

In the past 2 weeks it has amazed me...it grew out of its early deformities...it is now my healthiest plant and it is beautiful...my favorite

Stick with her ...you may be surprised

Good luck with your grow...I'm looking forward to following along:thumb:
 
Thanks for jumping on Jay. I might need some genetic insight when I start getting mid evil on her.
 
Jay233 said:
Subbed Skybound...I am also growing a THC bomb...I got just one seed to try it out in my grow...it started out horrible...slow growth badly twisted leaves...I wrote it off and through it into flower 1 1/2 weeks before my other plants to free up space in my smaller grow tent

In the past 2 weeks it has amazed me...it grew out of its early deformities...it is now my healthiest plant and it is beautiful...my favorite

Stick with her ...you may be surprised

Good luck with your grow...I'm looking forward to following along:thumb:
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The first week 1/2 of that THC bomb sure sounds familiar. KUMIKO (Honey Haze-feminized) is my ugly duckling.
 
>>> I noticed ever since I added the 5ml of aqua shield, the mixed nutes developed a feign but foul odor in the jug. Don't know if that's natural, but I'm gonna scrap that jug and mix up a new batch for next feeding time tonight or tomorrow. Also, for some reason, the PH was nearly impossible to lower.

Yea Aquashield is a liquid compost, so I would assume the process of breaking down nutrients and minerals will create a foul stench. I also notice a foul stench in my res after a few days, so no worries there. As long as your PPMs are set (PPM sways of less than 50 are not negligible) you should be good, though I change out my res every 7 days to avoid deficiencies.

Also if you are using tapwater then pH is inevitably always going to swing. Capn had mentioned to me that before he got his RO system, he had always struggled with pH sway. I have realized the same. That there will always be some kind of buffer in the tap water in your area. It wasn't until he got the RO unit where his pH remained stable.
 
All I use is distilled. Unless I'm severely flat broke, then I'll down grade to tap, but I boiled off a pot of water once and the shit that remains really heebs me out.
 
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