SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

Dosage limits..

I'm still a little confused about the dosage of these bio bombs for my wife's RA.

Right now she has been taking 4 bio bombs a day, each one having an equally balanced level of THC and CBD, at 22.6 mg for each bio bomb, or about 90 mg of cannabinoids per day.

Is this enough? Too much?

She has been experiencing some marked improvement in her symptoms, but still on high-humidity days she suffers a lot.

Sue, I read what you wrote about tolerance levels:

The only reason to increase would be if she's getting regular breakthrough pain that suggests a need for more THC. If you simply increase without good reason you run the risk of overshooting the optimal therapeutic dose and find yourself with the options of resetting the tolerance levels or increasing the dose to levels that aren't easily sustainable.

So, how do we know when she's reached the optimal tolerance level? Is there any guideline as to how much is the right amount?

I AM running into cost issues, so I do not want to waste the CCO I buy, and I want to make sure she gets everything she needs. I'm not willing to scrimp on what is necessary, and I'm not willing to waste it.

I'm just at the point where I have to make some more bio bombs for her and I'd like to know should I increase the cannabinoids or decrease?


I'd be glad of some further guidance...

Thanks, Sue

The first question that popped into my mind was "how frequent are high-humidity days?" If that's only occasionally then some vaping of a secondary strain that gives her relief might be the best response.

You mention she's showing marked improvement. My inclination would be to stay the course until that's no longer the case. You find the optimal therapeutic dose by slowly increasing until one of two things happens:

- you begin to see marked improvement, in which case you stay there until you have some labs to confirm your suspicions that the dose is indeed therapeutic, or symptoms demand a further increase to stabilize

- the patient can't tolerate the euphoric effects, in which case you back off a step and stay there

We're all lab rats, feeling our way through. The medical field is just beginning to pay attention to cannabinoid therapies, so we're likely way ahead of them. They have those wonderful diagnostic machines and systems we can benefit from on occassion, so it pays to maintain good relations. :battingeyelashes: :Love: Cannabis is herbal medication, and requires a little more thinking outside the box than many trained professionals are comfortable with.

Costs are best controlled with the biobombs, IMHO. A good topical for rough moments, a solid capsule regimine as a baseline, and something she enjoys vaping for breakthrough - could this be comfortable for the two of you to work with? Magnus and the crew are working on a good lotion, I'd keep my eye open for that.
 
While I was looking up info on Hashgirl's question about pinene I came across some background info that led me to this research article on reintoxication that answers my question above on why I was getting high more than 12 hours after my last dose the night before that didn't get me high.

Reintoxication: the release of fat-stored Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) into blood is enhanced by food deprivation or ACTH exposure

It turns out that some THC is stored in fat tissues as THC and gradually released back into the body. This is usually a slow process but can be accelerated by certain chemicals through lipolysis and also by exercise and food deprivation that cause body to start metabolizing fat stores. In my case the large doses I took Thursday night were much closer together than usual, kind of a super-dose that apparently caused much more THC to be stored and then released in large doses throughout day Friday while I wasn't taking my supplements for competetive inhibition and therefore got me high all day long.

What I had read before was that only non-psychoactive metabolites were stored for long periods. This article and its references all confirm that THC and psychoactive metabolites are also stored and released over time.

The implications of this are widespread. It explains a lot of other things I've been experiencing during my treatment. It also partly answers many questions i've been researching since I joined this site, longer actually. It brings me to a point where I'm ready to start my biochemistry study hall to zero in on how cannabinoids travel through body to reach their target. I've got my note cards and yellow pad out to work on the first entry. It will take me a while to get it organized to point that it makes sense to others, but with peer pressure behind me I will see it through to fruition.
:Namaste:
 
The first question that popped into my mind was "how frequent are high-humidity days?" If that's only occasionally then some vaping of a secondary strain that gives her relief might be the best response.

You mention she's showing marked improvement. My inclination would be to stay the course until that's no longer the case. You find the optimal therapeutic dose by slowly increasing until one of two things happens:

- you begin to see marked improvement, in which case you stay there until you have some labs to confirm your suspicions that the dose is indeed therapeutic, or symptoms demand a further increase to stabilize

- the patient can't tolerate the euphoric effects, in which case you back off a step and stay there

We're all lab rats, feeling our way through. The medical field is just beginning to pay attention to cannabinoid therapies, so we're likely way ahead of them. They have those wonderful diagnostic machines and systems we can benefit from on occassion, so it pays to maintain good relations. :battingeyelashes: :Love: Cannabis is herbal medication, and requires a little more thinking outside the box than many trained professionals are comfortable with.

Costs are best controlled with the biobombs, IMHO. A good topical for rough moments, a solid capsule regimine as a baseline, and something she enjoys vaping for breakthrough - could this be comfortable for the two of you to work with? Magnus and the crew are working on a good lotion, I'd keep my eye open for that.

Thanks for this....

So what do you think about 90 mg of cannabinoids per day? Is that a typically high dose, or low dose?

The "high humidity" days are infrequent and, as you suggest, can perhaps be treated with the vaporiser. She has had some improvement, but no matter what dose she has,the pain is never totally wiped out... just reduced to a "manageable" level. ( If it was me, I'd be reaching for strong drugs... I'm a big sissy when it comes to pain, but she just laughs through it).

"labs" are not available to us... her doctor is not supportive.

Your program sounds right...that is what we are doing except for the topical. Our experience with topicals has not been good...we bought one from a local dispensary, called Cannabis Infused Salve and the little jar of 15 ml holds, according to the label, 30 mg THC and 4 mg CBD. So the amount in any single application is going to be very small. My GW says its just greasy and messy.

As an alternative, we have been using a skin conditioner that is all natural, absorbs quickly, is non greasy and has its own healing properties. If you want the brand name, PM. Its a great skin creme. I'm going to mix up a small batch and mix in some of the CCO mix I use in the bio bombs. Not sure how much to mix in..

Perhaps I should wait for the experts to weigh in..
 
While I was looking up info on Hashgirl's question about pinene I came across some background info that led me to this research article on reintoxication that answers my question above on why I was getting high more than 12 hours after my last dose the night before that didn't get me high.

Reintoxication: the release of fat-stored Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) into blood is enhanced by food deprivation or ACTH exposure

It turns out that some THC is stored in fat tissues as THC and gradually released back into the body. This is usually a slow process but can be accelerated by certain chemicals through lipolysis and also by exercise and food deprivation that cause body to start metabolizing fat stores. In my case the large doses I took Thursday night were much closer together than usual, kind of a super-dose that apparently caused much more THC to be stored and then released in large doses throughout day Friday while I wasn't taking my supplements for competetive inhibition and therefore got me high all day long.

What I had read before was that only non-psychoactive metabolites were stored for long periods. This article and its references all confirm that THC and psychoactive metabolites are also stored and released over time.

The implications of this are widespread. It explains a lot of other things I've been experiencing during my treatment. It also partly answers many questions i've been researching since I joined this site, longer actually. It brings me to a point where I'm ready to start my biochemistry study hall to zero in on how cannabinoids travel through body to reach their target. I've got my note cards and yellow pad out to work on the first entry. It will take me a while to get it organized to point that it makes sense to others, but with peer pressure behind me I will see it through to fruition.
:Namaste:

Sounds like you have a time-release working! :)

Regarding how cannibinoids travel through the body, my wife's experience has been that she got "tingling" feelings at the site that, before dosing, was painful. And, to further confuse us, the pain seems to pop up in new places. Yesterday she had knee pain, which she never had before.
 
:welcome: to 420 Magazine Anchutz. I trust youre finding your way around? If we can be of any assistance please don't hesitate to ask.

The science of vaping is growing. We already know the boiling point of the terpenes. If your cannabis is tested you know the terpene profile and can plan your vaping routine. We'll be doing what you suggest before you know it. Terpenes are the future of cannabis businesses, as cajuncelt's fond of pointing out. I tend to agree with him.

Hi Sue,
Ive decided I'm overthinking this way too much, bottom line is, I just need to be out of chronic pain before anything and save the interest in it as a hobby (and experiments) when I have pain under control. It's too inconsistent now so need to develop a more structured times and dosages. What are ways to minimize tolorance? Thanks!
 
Speaking of GF, do they have course on why effects persist after steady use? Or does anyone have info on it?

I'm having a lot more breakthrough euphoria than usual today and I haven't had a dose since 8pm last night (17 hours ago). I'm actually feeling more high right now than when I took the dose last night. To clarify, I take suppositories so I don't usually feel high. Last night as with most doses I didn't feel high but could feel the tinglies through my body and a gentle mood lift. Right now I would say I'm moderately high and was high most of the morning, too high to be at work. I've felt this before and thought it was breakthough from the doses I took during day, which led me to stop daytime doses after my last scan.

It's strong enough high that I feel like I should do a smoke report on it!:rofl: <--and this is what I'd look like after I did.

I have all sorts of ideas but can't find anything to confirm any of them, so really no idea.

I have no idea why or if anything I say is related to this, but my practitioner says that most of his patients need less cannabis as more and more healing occurs - and the body lets them know. Maybe this is happening for you? I guess you'll know more if this happens more and more often for you.
 
Well - you'd be proud of me! I started by 1:1 oil again yesterday.

(Um, its' been a while and a lot is going on here and I changed my username. I was a little shocked and weirded out by how much random, non-members could come in here and see all of our activity, and I wasn't trying very hard to be anonymous. I think too much is still here, but it's a start. So, just in case you guys are wondering who the hell I am :) ).

Anyway, I've been taking my CBD oil - 1/5 dilution, 3x a day. Tried to increase strength, failed. Actually increased dilution a bit - 1/6 and that has allowed me to be more productive. I think I'm going to make two batches of CBD, though - weaker for morning, a bit stronger for afternoon and bedtime, because this feels better the first half of the day, but by the end, I'm feeling the hint of anxiety wanting to break through.

Now I'm adding in my 1:1 oil again, diluted 50x.

Anyway, my plan is

Day 1 - CBD, CBD, THC+CBD
Day 2 - CBD, CBD, CBD
Repeat

When I take the THC:CBD oil, the first couple of doses are good - it's when I take it a few times that my body reacts badly. Somebody a month or two ago recommended spacing out the doses because of that, so Thank You whoever that was! So, taking it last night was fine. This is why I'm alternating days for now. I will start by diluting it less in a week - I actually think the dilution is too weak. I will stick with that for awhile, hope I build a tolerance, and then start making it a nightly ritual.

I don't know what benefits I can receive from an every other day type of regimen, but it's simply where I am right now with the plans to increase.

Just in case anybody out there is having issues. I'm clearly insanely sensitive, if i can feel a different between a dilution of a single drop from 1/5 to 1/6, but now that I know this, I'm going to be able to work this out.
 
I have no idea why or if anything I say is related to this, but my practitioner says that most of his patients need less cannabis as more and more healing occurs - and the body lets them know. Maybe this is happening for you? I guess you'll know more if this happens more and more often for you.

Thanks, SL. That is part of it too.

I kept my dosage up just to make sure my last scan wasn't a fluke. It's time for me to scale back to a maintenance regimen. Deep down part of me isn't ready to believe I am winning this battle. Treating cancer was easy and simple, just blast the heck out of it. Now I'm in your territory having to figure out how much is just enough. :laughtwo: strange new world for me!
 
Hello,
Experimenting with a Magical Butter Machine 2 is a blast. I have experimented a little too much and found crap, R&D with this is really expensive due to the minimums required to use the machine. I am looking for recipies of the most potent variety. Obviously, the starting material is key but if not processed correctly, you end up with a nasty mess. I've heard some people say that they tried using two eight hour cycles at 160f. I've yet to try that and use only one of the 8 hour cycles to eventually make oil. If anyone has any super recipies for butter, oil, concentrates, I'd love to exchange information.
 
Thanks, SL. That is part of it too.

I kept my dosage up just to make sure my last scan wasn't a fluke. It's time for me to scale back to a maintenance regimen. Deep down part of me isn't ready to believe I am winning this battle. Treating cancer was easy and simple, just blast the heck out of it. Now I'm in your territory having to figure out how much is just enough. :laughtwo: strange new world for me!

Luckily a strange and HAPPY one!!!! :cheertwo:
 
Danolo, Magnus made himself a pain cream infused with tea tree oil and peppermint oil and he said it works wonderfully for his back pain. I know he suffers with a lot of pain so you might want to touch base with him to find out what works best for him.

I made a cream as well and the recipe is posted in Magnus' study hall. I love it. Yeah, it's greasy but when my joints are aching, it really helps me. For example, the night after I made the cream my left knee was about an 8 out of 10 on the pain scale and I rubbed some lotion on it and within about 20 minutes , it was down to about a 2 or a 3. I also take canna-infused oil capsules along with it and between the two of them, I'm feeling much better.

And, just an FYI, I have pain every day, too but it's not bad enough that I worry about it. Your wife may never be completely pain-free and if she's like me, that might be fine. A little pain I can manage. It's just when I'm so sore I can't think that I run into problems.

:circle-of-love:

Thanks for this....

So what do you think about 90 mg of cannabinoids per day? Is that a typically high dose, or low dose?

The "high humidity" days are infrequent and, as you suggest, can perhaps be treated with the vaporiser. She has had some improvement, but no matter what dose she has,the pain is never totally wiped out... just reduced to a "manageable" level. ( If it was me, I'd be reaching for strong drugs... I'm a big sissy when it comes to pain, but she just laughs through it).

"labs" are not available to us... her doctor is not supportive.

Your program sounds right...that is what we are doing except for the topical. Our experience with topicals has not been good...we bought one from a local dispensary, called Cannabis Infused Salve and the little jar of 15 ml holds, according to the label, 30 mg THC and 4 mg CBD. So the amount in any single application is going to be very small. My GW says its just greasy and messy.

As an alternative, we have been using a skin conditioner that is all natural, absorbs quickly, is non greasy and has its own healing properties. If you want the brand name, PM. Its a great skin creme. I'm going to mix up a small batch and mix in some of the CCO mix I use in the bio bombs. Not sure how much to mix in..

Perhaps I should wait for the experts to weigh in..
 
Love my oil. Subbed

My oil is what keeps me sane between back procedures. I shutter to think of not having any periods away from the pain. One thing that has come up, tolorance. Besides going cold turkey for a couple of days, are you aware of any other strategies to minimize this and still medicate?
 
My oil is what keeps me sane between back procedures. I shutter to think of not having any periods away from the pain. One thing that has come up, tolorance. Besides going cold turkey for a couple of days, are you aware of any other strategies to minimize this and still medicate?

Mango a couple times a week may help. :circle-of-love::peace:

I use dried mango weekly and green tea daily. Mango also helps THC cross blood-brain barrier, so you may feel effects more strongly. Up to you whether that's a good thing or not. :)
 
While I was looking up info on Hashgirl's question about pinene I came across some background info that led me to this research article on reintoxication that answers my question above on why I was getting high more than 12 hours after my last dose the night before that didn't get me high.

Reintoxication: the release of fat-stored Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) into blood is enhanced by food deprivation or ACTH exposure

It turns out that some THC is stored in fat tissues as THC and gradually released back into the body. This is usually a slow process but can be accelerated by certain chemicals through lipolysis and also by exercise and food deprivation that cause body to start metabolizing fat stores. In my case the large doses I took Thursday night were much closer together than usual, kind of a super-dose that apparently caused much more THC to be stored and then released in large doses throughout day Friday while I wasn't taking my supplements for competetive inhibition and therefore got me high all day long.

What I had read before was that only non-psychoactive metabolites were stored for long periods. This article and its references all confirm that THC and psychoactive metabolites are also stored and released over time.

The implications of this are widespread. It explains a lot of other things I've been experiencing during my treatment. It also partly answers many questions i've been researching since I joined this site, longer actually. It brings me to a point where I'm ready to start my biochemistry study hall to zero in on how cannabinoids travel through body to reach their target. I've got my note cards and yellow pad out to work on the first entry. It will take me a while to get it organized to point that it makes sense to others, but with peer pressure behind me I will see it through to fruition.
:Namaste:

I'll exert a little peer pressure. This will be a perfect compliment to the study hall and my thread on clues to the ECS, which is really me flailing about in an opportunistic manner hoping to catch the unexpected. Another study hall gives us a good reason to start a sub forum of study halls. The one you suggest is absolutely needed.

Please, start it. :battingeyelashes: :Love:
 
My oil is what keeps me sane between back procedures. I shutter to think of not having any periods away from the pain. One thing that has come up, tolorance. Besides going cold turkey for a couple of days, are you aware of any other strategies to minimize this and still medicate?

Switching off strains will work to keep tolerances at bay. There are circumstances like your own that keep one from going off meds for any time.

With the MB2 you're gonna end up with a mess no matter what. I've found that processing two cups of oil is the minimum amount that works well for me. My standard measure is 100 grams of dried bud to 500 ml of oil. That's fairly potent. Are you using liquid sunflower lecithin to increase bioavailibity?
 
What's the easiest way I can find to make good-quality oil in my kitchen?

Some possibilities:

1. First off, the thread by 420 Motoco

How To Make Concentrated Cannabis Oil

2.
Lab Rat's instructions for SCET, a slow, cold ethanol extraction.



3. This is how easy it can be to make oil. I don't condone everything she does in this video, there are a couple necessary tweaks to dramatically improve the quality and bioavailability of the CCO, (see below) but this gives you insight into how easy it can be.

Suggested improvements:

- Freeze the decarbed and ground buds, the cup, the fork and the solvent overnight at the lowest temp you can get in your freezer.
- Do 3 quick washes for 3 minutes each. Timing is critical.
- After you strain the wash, freeze it for 24 hours before proceeding with boiling the solvent off.

Adding the winterizing steps cleans out waxes and undesirables from the end product. The critical timing of the washes is to keep from extracting chlorophyll. Your oil will be golden instead of black. Work swiftly, but carefully.


Although it's not a concentrated oil, PsyCro's olive oil extraction is a valuable oil in its own right. Made with fresh plant material it maintains the terpenes and many other compounds lost in the making of concentrated cannabis oil.

4. PsyCro's Olive Oil Extraction Method

PsyCro has a preference for this method of making a cannabis oil concentration because he believes there is more therapeutic value in using fresh plant material. His beliefs are well founded, since science proved in 1995 that myrcene, the predominant monoterpene found in cannabis, degrades by 30% in the first week of drying and drops off to an abysmal 16% of the original composition after three months of drying. Using olive oil allowed him to retain all of this valuable terpene in his oil. We're just learning of the importance of terpenes and their synergistic dance with cannabinoids. It's worth noting that as the bud material dries and cures the sesquiterpenes intensify, which suggests that the medicinal values of oil made with dried buds will have a different effect than this method.

I've done a compilation of his technique. I've taken some license with my write up, but limited that to common sense pointers like covering the resting oil with a cloth to keep out foreign matter. The original post can be found here:

Olive Oil Extract Update

The significant research material that drove his decision to use fresh plant material


His Technique:

Use fresh plant material. The olive oil makes it possible to retain everything of medicinal value regardless of water content.

1. Ingredients:

Use a ratio of 400 grams of top-quality fresh buds to a liter of the best cold press olive oil you can get. Use an immersion blender to grind up the plant material as you add it. This method worked well for him to get this much fresh bud incorporated into the oil.

2. Cooking:

Temperature: 105 degrees Celsius (221 degrees Fahrenheit)

Use a double boiler. Water in the bottom pot won't get up to temperature so use sunflower oil for this purpose. A cooking thermometer will keep you attuned to temperature fluctuations. Stir ever five minutes or so. Although you will get fluctuations, they won't be a concern. Keep it as close as you can.

Your chief concern is that fresh bud has a fair quality of water content, so it's going to take a while to get the temperature up as the water evaporates. Use a low flame and just wait it out.

When you hit 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees Fahrenheit) begin your countdown. Your baseline is 105 degrees Celsius (221 degrees Fahrenheit) for two hours. You'll get a feel for it in time. Keep stirring every five minutes or so throughout the process.

3. Separation

Cover and cool the oil overnight. The next day, after the oil has completely cooled to room temperature, process the oil and bud material as completely as you can. PsyCro used his vita-mix, but any food processor or blender should suffice. The idea is to get the plant material completely broken down.

Pour the entire mix into a glass pitcher and cover lightly to keep out dust and bugs. Let it settle until the finely-ground bud settles to the bottom. Pour the oil off into whatever container you plan to store it in. I'd think a glass corked kitchen bottle would be a good choice here.

To get the most oil out of the plant material PsyCro used the following method:
* Strain leftover material through cheesecloth or gauze.
* Tie it up and throw it into a pot of hot water.
* Mix thoroughly, then strain into another pot.
* Repeat two to three times.
* Separate the oil from the water. I'd think the best way to do this would be to boil the water off, but use whatever method works for you.

4. Consumption/Dosing:

The oil is simply swallowed. You can swish it around in your mouth for faster action.

1.5 ml was the daily dose PsyCro used as his standard. Remember that it takes approximately 1 gram of cannabis (figuring that 400 grams wet is equivalent to 100 grams dry) to produce 10 ml of the infused oil. Increase dose as tolerances build. It makes sense to break the daily dose up into 4 doses, one every 6 hours.

PsyCro's mother-in-law was taking 15 ml to treat her pancreatic cancer. Over a three month period her inoperable tumor shrunk from 5cm to 2cm and markers dropped from a high of 900 down to 80. In his thread (see the link above) he mentions others he helped with a supply of oil.

Have a meal about 30 minutes before ingesting . Alternatively, ingest a tablespoonful of coconut oil or some other fat 30-40 minutes before dosing to occupy the liver and increase the bioavaibility of the medicated oil.

From the Cancer Protocol thread:

The bioavailability of cannabinoids is lower when taken on an empty stomach or more accurately an empty liver. Oils are metabolised mostly in the liver and by eating fat 30 minutes before administering cannabis oil the liver will be otherwise occupied when the medicine starts to circulate. A tablespoon of coconut oil is widely considered to be a healthy and effective option. Other supplements can be taken with or mixed into this coconut oil.

There's much more valuable information on giving your body the best chance for bioavaibility in the first two posts of the cancer protocol thread, so I'll include a link here:

A Base Treatment Regimen For Cancer

This is a powerful edible oil. Use with caution.

Four different ways to process oil.

Some of us have been using a water or essential oil distiller for production, in an attempt to reclaim part of the solvent and help defray costs. At some point we'll get some good photo documentation of that process.


Fantastic information again Sweet Sue. ...


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Further updates on treatments for my wife's RA.

She has now, for the past two days been taking the Bio Bomb at the 5:1 strength. So far, it seems like she has less pain. We'll continue to watch for effects.

My GW is now a convert to topicals. As I mentioned in a previous posting, I mixed a bit of the CCO that went into the BioBombs, into her favourite skin conditioner. We know this product well and trust its all natural rating. If you would like the name of this product, just PM me.

Anyhow, we mixed up a very small amount of CCO and skin creme, and today she applied it to an ankle flareup. She described the pain as "bones grinding". Within 20 minutes she noticed an affect... starting out with a mild tingly feeling and then the pain eased. Now 2 hours later, the pain is gone, with only a small residual effect. This topical is now included in our arsenal against this terrible disease.

Questions for you topical gurus... What do you think about using DMSO as a carrier to transport cannabinoids into the skin?

And, would we get a better or worse affect by applying the CCO directly to the skin?

Thanks guys
 
I encourage you to subscribe with them. The classes are getting better. I don't recall anything about the lingering effects. There is a class I want to give you advance notice of, because when it opens up it fills quickly. They offer a master class on dosing and administration for specific treatments, taught by a couple physicians that work with the site. It costs $50, and I missed out when it ran the first time. I've been waiting on it for a while, trying to remember to set the money aside. It comes with the benefit of being able to ask the doctors directly and getting a personalized answer. This would be the place to ask that question KR.

I can't wait for the day to be able to have real discussions with physicians in the UK. ...


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