Sqwheels' Perpetual 2L Hempy + Moms

[sqwheels]

Frat,

Having said all of the above, let me address one more thing...I've read most of docbuds journals, he's very smart...sometimes too much for me. I'm still confused about TA

He's said "Hempy is a bit different.....there's no buffer in the medium, so the pH is more important. That's why many commercial and professional fertilizers use chelated nutrients, which make them readily available to the plant at a wide range of pH.

So...what's a grower to do?

1.)test the total alkalinity of your water.
2.)If it's within range: 30-60 ppm of Calcium (not total ppm) adjust pH down to 6ish and grow some plants.
3.)If it's out of range, dilute tap water with RO until it's within range and then adjust pH and start growing.

There are two other factors to consider:

1.)moderately alkaline water can be a good thing....it's a source of Ca and Mg which our plants love
2.)Use of phosphoric acid as a pH down increases available phosphorus to the plants. This means if you have an emotional attachment to high PK "bloom" nutes you have a good chance of creating problems with your plants, because high levels of phosphorus make zinc, iron and copper unavailable to the plants.
3.)Use of nitric acid as a pH down will increase nitrogen, which can cause other problems as well.

Test the total alkalinity of your water. If it's high.....your best bet is to dilute it with RO."

What am I missing? I'm not getting something here.

Total ppm's and Ca ppm's are not the same?

How does one test for Calcium ppm's alone?

I thought because my tap water is hard, high in ppm's, that was an indication of alot of Ca put in there by the city for drinking purposes, and alkalinity refers to pH level, the more alka the higher the pH and the more acidic the lower the pH. Right?

RO @ 6.7 mixed with tap @ 8.7 ??? Your guess is as good as mine.

RO @ 0 ppm's with tap @ 235 ??? 2/3:1/3 gal 80-100 total ppm's is my guess but how much of that is Ca?

And the fact that I've used pH down in such small amounts I don't think it's messed with the P portion of their food, is 8P and 7K alot? I don't know, I do know that growers add molasses or other stuff for extra K, to promote blooms...and I've done that. Maybe I've just screwed up their whole feeding needs and now I'm seeing the results.

All I know is I've got some mixing to do and my help is on the way...I've got to get busy. I've been rambling waayyy too long. Thanks for listening.

I hope at least most of this makes sense.

It's making my head hurt...Have I said it lately?

I love growing

 

[OG13]

Frat,

Having said all of the above, let me address one more thing...I've read most of docbuds journals, he's very smart...sometimes too much for me. I'm still confused about TA

He's said "Hempy is a bit different.....there's no buffer in the medium, so the pH is more important. That's why many commercial and professional fertilizers use chelated nutrients, which make them readily available to the plant at a wide range of pH.


What am I missing? I'm not getting something here.

Total ppm's and Ca ppm's are not the same?

No, Ca is one component of hard water and high PPM's (usually the biggest)

How does one test for Calcium ppm's alone?

A comprehensive water test (your city may have the results or you must pay for it)

I thought because my tap water is hard, high in ppm's, that was an indication of alot of Ca put in there by the city for drinking purposes, and alkalinity refers to pH level, the more alka the higher the pH and the more acidic the lower the pH. Right?

The Ca is in the water from the rocks in your area, the water leaches it out and it ends up in your drinking water.

RO @ 6.7 mixed with tap @ 8.7 ??? Your guess is as good as mine.

RO @ 0 ppm's with tap @ 235 ??? 2/3:1/3 gal 80-100 total ppm's is my guess but how much of that is Ca?

You can't measure pH of RO if it is 0 ppm.....the Ca in your tap water is probably 80% or more based on where you live and the underlying rocks (that part of MI) but you are correct, it is a guess. I believe your problems will disappear with the use of RO and you will want to ask Santa for one soon.

And the fact that I've used pH down in such small amounts I don't think it's messed with the P portion of their food, is 8P and 7K alot? I don't know, I do know that growers add molasses or other stuff for extra K, to promote blooms...and I've done that. Maybe I've just screwed up their whole feeding needs and now I'm seeing the results.

I don't think you are feeding anything wrong.....it is in the water.


I love growing

I can tell, me too

Sqwheels, I put my comments in red to sort them out. I said it before, the RO should make your problems disappear. You are using tested nutes, processes and equipment. You have grown good buds before, this is just new to you. The soil acted as a buffer in the last grow, the water is more important since the perlite has no buffering capability. I hope you see the turnaround.

 

[OG13]

Flush w/ straight RO and then dilute the tap w/ RO to a level of 80 to 100 ppm. Add your nutes (you will add more since you are using some RO). Ph and water as normal. Watch for a change....you may not see a change in the older leaves, but the plants will be happier.

 

[sqwheels]

Flush w/ straight RO and then dilute the tap w/ RO to a level of 80 to 100 ppm. Add your nutes (you will add more since you are using some RO). Ph and water as normal. Watch for a change....you may not see a change in the older leaves, but the plants will be happier.

Hi OG, very nice to see you

Oop's too late... like I posted earlier, because of the things in Frat's post about what docbud and others said, I mixed a low dose nute for flushing.

I ended up doing the following...

like I guessed earlier... 1/3:2/3 gallon (eyeballed) water:RO = roughly 74-92 ppm's to this I added roughly 1/2 t bloom for a total 375-379 ppm's and it pH'd to 5.7-6.0 with no adjusting. I made several gallons of this and flushed the White Widow and the 3 Wonder woman clones...they all have hempy mix per/verm 75/25.

The original Wonder Woman is in promix and I'll flush her on thursday when I get more RO. She only requires watering every other day @ a rate of about 30-32oz, she's in a 6" pot and dries up really good about every 48hrs

I have to go back and reread your other reply, make sure I understood you right.

 

[sqwheels]

You are the ultimate critic/customer/patient....that's why you need to experiment a little bit on each grow. That's what makes you an excellent farmer down the road. Each setup is unique-- water, climate, nutes etc.

Refresh me on your current regime....GH 3 part, a little epsom, and hard tap water, correct. What def's do you think you are seeing? I wonder if you could use 1/2 bottled RO w/ your tap water as an experiment to see if they look better? Maybe for a week or 2. It may cost more if it convinces you that you need a RO unit......

You may want to try a different nute line if you want to stay with your current tap water. By experimenting, you may find a line that works great w/ hard water. I'm not recommending expensive--I use DynaGro and Bloom and believe Mr Smith likes it as well. It is cheap and has been around a long time too.

I somehow missed this a couple days back, we must have been posting about the same time...It's kinda mute now, but I didn't want you to think I ignored it.

ok, back to your other post...



What am I missing? I'm not getting something here.

Total ppm's and Ca ppm's are not the same?

No, Ca is one component of hard water and high PPM's (usually the biggest)

How does one test for Calcium ppm's alone?

A comprehensive water test (your city may have the results or you must pay for it)

I'll take a sample and ask Culligan to do this when I pick up more RO tomorrow

I thought because my tap water is hard, high in ppm's, that was an indication of alot of Ca put in there by the city for drinking purposes, and alkalinity refers to pH level, the more alka the higher the pH and the more acidic the lower the pH. Right?

The Ca is in the water from the rocks in your area, the water leaches it out and it ends up in your drinking water.

I didn't know how this happened, but it makes perfect sense...duh

RO @ 6.7 mixed with tap @ 8.7 ??? Your guess is as good as mine.

RO @ 0 ppm's with tap @ 235 ??? 2/3:1/3 gal 80-100 total ppm's is my guess but how much of that is Ca?

You can't measure pH of RO if it is 0 ppm.....the Ca in your tap water is probably 80% or more based on where you live and the underlying rocks (that part of MI) but you are correct, it is a guess. I believe your problems will disappear with the use of RO and you will want to ask Santa for one soon.

What do you mean by "can't measure pH of RO" it registered 6.7 on my tester.

I hope you're right about the RO making things better, I'll be watching them closely for any signs of improvement, I have access to RO without having to buy a unit. As little as I'll need it will work for now.

And the fact that I've used pH down in such small amounts I don't think it's messed with the P portion of their food, is 8P and 7K alot? I don't know, I do know that growers add molasses or other stuff for extra K, to promote blooms...and I've done that. Maybe I've just screwed up their whole feeding needs and now I'm seeing the results.

I don't think you are feeding anything wrong.....it is in the water.

Hopefully

 

[OG13]

PH can not be measured with any accuracy if the water has 0 ppm. There's nothing there, it should be 7.0, neither acid nor base. PH is caused by "contaminates" in the water. If you added a few grains of salt to a gallon of RO, your pH would probably read differently. Next time you get some, take a reading or two, you may see your tester "float around" on the reading (although it is not good to leave the pH tester in straight RO for long, can damage the electrode). Culligan should be able to tell you what all is in your water, Ca, Na, Mg, Mn, S, Pb, Ra, not all are needed for growing, but it is interesting. Hopefully they can explain to you where the "contaminates" come from and how their water is better. Keep in mind you do not want a "water softener" for growing. It will make your shower/soap/laundry lather up a bunch and make it hard to rinse off, some people like that. The soft water contains a bunch of salt which is bad for growing. Most people that have them run unsoftened water to the kitchen sink for cooking uses--and install a RO under the sink--get plant water there.

 

[Bassman59]

I havent ready anyones response yet, but why are you adding epsom salts with tap at 200+ ppm? I really wouldnt think it needs it with 200+ ppm already. The cal-mag should be in there.

 

[Vapedogg223]

Frat,

Having said all of the above, let me address one more thing...I've read most of docbuds journals, he's very smart...sometimes too much for me. I'm still confused about TA

He's said "Hempy is a bit different.....there's no buffer in the medium, so the pH is more important. That's why many commercial and professional fertilizers use chelated nutrients, which make them readily available to the plant at a wide range of pH.

So...what's a grower to do?

1.)test the total alkalinity of your water.
2.)If it's within range: 30-60 ppm of Calcium (not total ppm) adjust pH down to 6ish and grow some plants.
3.)If it's out of range, dilute tap water with RO until it's within range and then adjust pH and start growing.

There are two other factors to consider:

1.)moderately alkaline water can be a good thing....it's a source of Ca and Mg which our plants love
2.)Use of phosphoric acid as a pH down increases available phosphorus to the plants. This means if you have an emotional attachment to high PK "bloom" nutes you have a good chance of creating problems with your plants, because high levels of phosphorus make zinc, iron and copper unavailable to the plants.
3.)Use of nitric acid as a pH down will increase nitrogen, which can cause other problems as well.

Test the total alkalinity of your water. If it's high.....your best bet is to dilute it with RO."

What am I missing? I'm not getting something here.

Total ppm's and Ca ppm's are not the same?

How does one test for Calcium ppm's alone?

I thought because my tap water is hard, high in ppm's, that was an indication of alot of Ca put in there by the city for drinking purposes, and alkalinity refers to pH level, the more alka the higher the pH and the more acidic the lower the pH. Right?

RO @ 6.7 mixed with tap @ 8.7 ??? Your guess is as good as mine.

RO @ 0 ppm's with tap @ 235 ??? 2/3:1/3 gal 80-100 total ppm's is my guess but how much of that is Ca?

And the fact that I've used pH down in such small amounts I don't think it's messed with the P portion of their food, is 8P and 7K alot? I don't know, I do know that growers add molasses or other stuff for extra K, to promote blooms...and I've done that. Maybe I've just screwed up their whole feeding needs and now I'm seeing the results.

All I know is I've got some mixing to do and my help is on the way...I've got to get busy. I've been rambling waayyy too long. Thanks for listening.

I hope at least most of this makes sense.

It's making my head hurt...Have I said it lately?

I love growing

First, let me say, I was just passing-on some of Doc's knowledge... I'm fairly sure he's smarter than me, so don't feel bad, I'm right here with you!

I thought his second post was pretty good at explaining total alkalinity...but I did do some more research to help me get my head around it at first, it is a little confusing. TA is the total concentration of bases in the water, and is measured in ppm or mg/L. TA is different than pH and it is different than hardness, which is mostly caused by calcium and magnesium...you can have a high TA without having hard water.

Sometimes you can find the TA on your municipal water report, but that may not always be that accurate if your city/town blends water from several wells and/or reservoirs. I picked up a pool test kit in order to test for TA.

Basically if your TA is too high, you can lower the pH but it will cause other issues to manifest. The only way to fix the issue is to dilute with RO water until the TA is in a safe range.

Total ppm and Ca ppm's are not the same. You can have the same level of hardness for two different samples of water but each sample may have different ratios of calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, etc. I think the only way to test for the exact concentration of calcium alone would be an instrumental analysis.

Your water is pretty hard though, so I'm with Bassman wondering why you were supplementing with epson salt, did I miss something or were you not aware that there's quite a bit of magnesium along with the calcium in hard water?

 

[sqwheels]

PH can not be measured with any accuracy if the water has 0 ppm. There's nothing there, it should be 7.0, neither acid nor base. PH is caused by "contaminates" in the water. If you added a few grains of salt to a gallon of RO, your pH would probably read differently. Next time you get some, take a reading or two, you may see your tester "float around" on the reading (although it is not good to leave the pH tester in straight RO for long, can damage the electrode). Culligan should be able to tell you what all is in your water, Ca, Na, Mg, Mn, S, Pb, Ra, not all are needed for growing, but it is interesting. Hopefully they can explain to you where the "contaminates" come from and how their water is better. Keep in mind you do not want a "water softener" for growing. It will make your shower/soap/laundry lather up a bunch and make it hard to rinse off, some people like that. The soft water contains a bunch of salt which is bad for growing. Most people that have them run unsoftened water to the kitchen sink for cooking uses--and install a RO under the sink--get plant water there.

Hi OG,

I thought about the pH thing while sleeping and came to that very conclusion. I just had to ponder it for awhile. Culligan was no help. They said they didn't do that extensive of test. From what she said I think they test with a stick kit like I have already done. She did however give me a number to the State Drinking water Lab. I haven't had time yet to call them. I've been very busy mixing water...man what a job this can be.

The slogan "It's not just a job, it's an adventure" keeps coming to my mind.

Ya, I know all about softeners. Had one as a kid, don't want one, my water is not THAT hard.

 

[sqwheels]

I havent read anyones response yet, but why are you adding epsom salts with tap at 200+ ppm? I really wouldnt think it needs it with 200+ ppm already. The cal-mag should be in there.

Hi Bassman,

A while back, late Sept/early Oct I thought I had a mag/sulfer def. I was told by a couple peep's here that epsom would help...so I tried it with a couple of feeds. I haven't actually given it as a regular supp. Just a couple light doses, to see if it helped. I included it in my long speeell the other night because it was something that I have used during this grow. I was just trying to give a complete account of what I've done.

 

[OG13]

Since your issues are not major, I think dilution is the solution. Bassman and TCK, she's been adding some epsom because she thought she had a mag def. Where she lives, hard water is caused by Ca.....

 

[sqwheels]

First, let me say, I was just passing-on some of Doc's knowledge... I'm fairly sure he's smarter than me, so don't feel bad, I'm right here with you!

I'm certain the man in smarter than me, and knows way more about growing than I. I appreciate you passing on the posts.

I thought his second post was pretty good at explaining total alkalinity...but I did do some more research to help me get my head around it at first, it is a little confusing. TA is the total concentration of bases in the water, and is measured in ppm or mg/L. TA is different than pH and it is different than hardness, which is mostly caused by calcium and magnesium...you can have a high TA without having hard water.

I've had some time to digest this and other info now and I think I understand it much better now. I'm a real tactile type learner and trying to wrap my mind around all the different things that are in and effect my water/feed was a bit of an overload, I had to do some experiments. But I think I get it now.

Sometimes you can find the TA on your municipal water report, but that may not always be that accurate if your city/town blends water from several wells and/or reservoirs. I picked up a pool test kit in order to test for TA.

I get a report of some kind from them every year, I'll see if I still have the last one and read it again, now that I'm more familiar with the lingo, I'll probably be able to understand it a little better.

Basically if your TA is too high, you can lower the pH but it will cause other issues to manifest. The only way to fix the issue is to dilute with RO water until the TA is in a safe range.

This is where I'm still not sure what will happen...because I don't know the specific ratios, it's still all a guess, experiments and experience to know the signs of trouble

I was using tap @ ppm 235 and pH of 8.7, adding nutes to this, depending on how much, in my case 1-1/2 t would raise the ppm to 1100-1200 and lower the pH to between 5.8-6.1, I was feeding this with no addition adjustments

Today mixing their feed I mixed tap and RO to get ppm @ 80 and then added nutes to get ppm @ 1000, I had to add more than usual for obvious reasons, and it lowered the pH to 4.8, so...I had to add pH up (15drops) to 5.7 so where I wasn't using pH adjusters before now I'll have to. My ?? now, what's the down side to using UP?

Total ppm and Ca ppm's are not the same. You can have the same level of hardness for two different samples of water but each sample may have different ratios of calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, etc. I think the only way to test for the exact concentration of calcium alone would be an instrumental analysis.

I get it now how different water has each element in different amounts and such...duh, she can be taught. I don't think I'll get an exact answer unless I pay to have a complete analysis by someone, it may come to that but for now I'll just continue to experiment with mixing the RO w tap and try to keep the girls happy.

Your water is pretty hard though, so I'm with Bassman wondering why you were supplementing with epson salt, did I miss something or were you not aware that there's quite a bit of magnesium along with the calcium in hard water?

See reply to Bassman...

It was easiest for me to answer all the ??? in red within your quote. Hope it all makes sense...a little .

 

[Mr. Krip]

If I remember correctly (I'll try to find where I saw this!), you want the PPM on Ca under 100, so if your total PPM after mixing R/O is 80, you should not have any problems related to Ca toxicity.

 

[Bassman59]

I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain adding epsom salts to 200+ ppm tap would be a no-no. You're basically adding mag to a mag rich water already. At 200ppm you could use it as a buffer with RO, thereby not needing to add cal-mag. But I wouldnt add epsom to that.

I screwed up early in my grow because I was using ro and not adding cal-mag. I got some epsom as a quick fix, and used some in a foliar, then got calmg+ and use it with my normal feeding.

 

[Mr. Krip]

I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain adding epsom salts to 200+ ppm tap would be a no-no. You're basically adding mag to a mag rich water already. At 200ppm you could use it as a buffer with RO, thereby not needing to add cal-mag. But I wouldnt add epsom to that.

I screwed up early in my grow because I was using ro and not adding cal-mag. I got some epsom as a quick fix, and used some in a foliar, then got calmg+ and use it with my normal feeding.

That is correct. In MOST cases, you would NOT need to add cal-mag or epsom salts to hard water, since hard water typically has more than enough for the plants, which is why diluting with R/O is a good idea with hard water.

 

[sqwheels]

Hi Mr. K,

I think I read it in DocBuds journals somewhere, but he recommended 30-60 I think, and somewhere else I saw 80-100. I've started with as close to 80 as I could get it.

I mix new nutes every day. So far I've only done it once since I flused the 2L's on Tuesday, I didn't flush the promix, just gave her nice low ppm's RO/tap/light nute mix for the last two waterings.

I'm using less than a gallon each day. The 2L currently Wh Widow uses between 14-17oz, the 3 Wonder Woman clones use between 12-14oz. The original Wonder Woman is in a 6" pot with Promix #4 and only gets water every other day, currently using 30-32oz.

I should mention that I defoliated yesterday. And found what looked like a little dustbunny. I'll be researching mold today, just incase. I don't know what MJ mold looks like.

 

[sqwheels]

I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain adding epsom salts to 200+ ppm tap would be a no-no. You're basically adding mag to a mag rich water already. At 200ppm you could use it as a buffer with RO, thereby not needing to add cal-mag. But I wouldnt add epsom to that.

I screwed up early in my grow because I was using ro and not adding cal-mag. I got some epsom as a quick fix, and used some in a foliar, then got calmg+ and use it with my normal feeding.

Hi Bassman,

I don't think your wrong, see Mr.K's post, adding epsom to tap that's high in Ca and Mg would probably be bad. But OG says my water is probably higher in Ca than Mg because of location.

Did you see my post yesterday or the day before, I said I wasn't using epsom as a regular supplement just a couple times @ low dose to see if it improved a S or Mg problem I thought I had?

 

[Jozo-sha]

I think this whole water thing is blown way the hell up. I'm going to start with this:

I'm on roughly the same water as Sqwheels, and rather than dick around with diluting the tap with RO/DI, I just water with RO/DI, spiked with cal-mag. No more bullshit, at least as far as dirt. In hydro, I'll cal-mag, then ph test, then nute it up.

End of story, as far as I do things, and my hydro plants kicked ass. Now that I think of it, I never pH tested my water before adding nutes either. *shrug*


- JZ

 

[sqwheels]

Hi Folks,

It's that time again Weekly Update

White Widow and Original Wonder Woman are now @ 50 days of flower, and the 3 Wonder Woman clones are now @ 42 days.

Group Shot

White Widow cola

Wonder Woman colas...only two of the three again, they are hard to move around in there, as y'all know I let them get bigger than intended

Here's a couple of the Wonder Woman clone colas, they look almost as good as the original

and a couple of clone bud shots

This is the bottom of one of the clones, if I had not defoliated @ 21 days I'm sure it would not look like this...they are just as hairy and sticky as the rest, sorry it's so out of focus

these are some of the leaves I defoliated from them today...day 42

Ok, a few thoughts...
I think I'm going to harvest in a week or so...I only have the flower room to hang and dry in, so...I'm trying to pick a happy medium since they are a week different in flowering times. I've been watching trics closely, there are almost no clear ones left on the 2 older girls, they are about 70/30 cloudy/amber, but if I focus down tighter I can see lots of very little ones, kinda looks like sweat droplets under the canopy of mushrooms, those are amber.

And the clones are just starting to turn amber, not many of them at all...maybe 15/70/15 clear/cloudy/amber

It's been a week since I started using an RO/tap mix and I think it's made a difference, it's a little hard to know for sure because I defoliated White Widow and original Wonder Woman last Thursday @ day 45, so I don't have any older leaves to guage by, but what's there looks healthy to me.

What do y'all think? Comments always welcome and appreciated.



Happy Growing Everybody

 

[Mr. Krip]

Sqwheels, what I think is that you're doing a fantastic job!

In all liklihood, the damaged leaves would not have repaired themselves, so as long as you don't see things getting worse, after the defoliation, I'd say the mix is helping!

Your buds look great, and I'd recommend sampling before harvest.

You said you're only at day #42 (I'm assuming that's days of flower and not days of 12/12, although you just defoliated, so perhaps that's only 12/12?) and most indicas will go a full 8 or 9 weeks of flower (which starts usually about a week after 12/12), although, some can finish earlier/later. So, I'd probably give it at least two more weeks, unless those samples are "knocking your socks off". The plants also gain some good weight in their last couple of weeks, so just stay patient and gauge carefully.