Sqwheels' Perpetual 2L Hempy + Moms

[sqwheels]

Hi Bassman,

for the kind words, appreciate you're looking.

 

[OG13]

Plants are looking nice, surprised you got ambers already. Hope you feel better, the weather doesn't help.

 

[Xlr8]

They look beautiful Sqwheels! I'm impressed with the bud development for 28 days.

 

[sqwheels]

Hey OG, really nice to see you here.

They are barely amber, I only looked at 4 buds, 2 on each, and I saw only a few. Maybe 10%....so, it's gonna be awhile.

I'm not convinced I've got all the nute/pH problems past me yet. The very tips of the leaves look like the good nute burn that growers talk about but others show some kind of deficiency...I can see leaves that resemble several of the problem pictures I've seen. Everything from N to Fe to S and Mg. But who knows, I could be interpreting the images wrong, they are just drawings not actual photos.

I have several of these pages I found online and saved for reference.
Example:

If you remember I had a problem at the end of my last grow and that weed is awful. I pulled it out last week, after several weeks of cure and it hasn't improved at all...I don't know if I ever told you how bad is was. I don't want that to happen again.

I'm not spraying anymore, the buds are really heavy now and I don't want to encourage mold. But I still include some Epsom with feeding occassionally. I think tomorrow I'll give them another feeding with molasses for a little extra K. I give plain water every 3rd day now.

As you know...I'm still learning.

Thanks for looking in on me, comments are always appreciated

 

[sqwheels]

They look beautiful Sqwheels! I'm impressed with the bud development for 28 days.

Hi X,

They look pretty good...I'm not convinced they are really healthy tho, see my post to OG.

The buds have grown alot on the clones since I defoliated at 21 days...I'm conviced that it helps let the light in and thats a good thing. I don't think those little buds at the bottom would be this big if I hadn't removed all the fan leaves keeping them in the shadows.

Why 21 and 42 days? Or maybe 21/45. I don't remember exactly when 420fied does his. But the ??? is the same. Why these two days specifically? I haven't read that explained anywhere that I can remember.

 

[Mr. Krip]

Hi X,

They look pretty good...I'm not convinced they are really healthy tho, see my post to OG.

The buds have grown alot on the clones since I defoliated at 21 days...I'm conviced that it helps let the light in and thats a good thing. I don't think those little buds at the bottom would be this big if I hadn't removed all the fan leaves keeping them in the shadows.

Why 21 and 42 days? Or maybe 21/45. I don't remember exactly when 420fied does his. But the ??? is the same. Why these two days specifically? I haven't read that explained anywhere that I can remember.

Sqwheels, the first is done at 21 days, which is AFTER the initial 3-week stretch. Defoliating before then can halt the vertical growth. They then get another three weeks to fill back back.

Then, at day 45 (or 42 is fine), they get defoliated the second time, and then get another 3 weeks or so before harvest. So, the defoliations are spaced to give the plant time to finish the stretch while keeping the large fan leaves to a minimum for the majority of the grow and allowing about 3 weeks to grow back in after each defoliation.

 

[SteveHman]

Things are looking very impressive in the garden. I will have to reconsider my defoliation policy on my current grow, I think there may be some merit in removing the large fan leaves after stretch.

 

[Bassman59]

Things are looking very impressive in the garden. I will have to reconsider my defoliation policy on my current grow, I think there may be some merit in removing the large fan leaves after stretch.

SteveHman, I've been reading a 140+ page thread on defoliation for the past week. It's a helluva read and the op has been extremely successful with it. I suggest you google K33ftr33z and "Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?". Plan on sitting down with a pot of coffee, notepad, and no distractions. I'm going for it on at least 1/2 of my clones if not all. I've been doing a bit on my current grow, but once you read that thread you'll understand I wont get the results since I didnt start in veg. But I should get more and better yield with my current grow. But certainly not 12oz per plant like the op.

 

[Xlr8]

Hi X,

They look pretty good...I'm not convinced they are really healthy tho, see my post to OG.

The buds have grown alot on the clones since I defoliated at 21 days...I'm conviced that it helps let the light in and thats a good thing. I don't think those little buds at the bottom would be this big if I hadn't removed all the fan leaves keeping them in the shadows.

Why 21 and 42 days? Or maybe 21/45. I don't remember exactly when 420fied does his. But the ??? is the same. Why these two days specifically? I haven't read that explained anywhere that I can remember.

Oh, I don't know for sure that there's magic to those specific days, per se', but I'll take a shot at answering this based on some logic and a little experience. These are 3 week, and 6 week markers.

Someone else can probably give you a better answer, but plants are usually done "transitioning" to flower at about 3 weeks, so they're stress level should decrease as the stretch/transition phase wraps up - and the plants stop vertical growth, making it ideal time for defoliation. I would guess 6 weeks is timed to further open up bud-sites for final bulking/ripening that happens the last 2-3 weeks of flowering as they fill in considerably between 3 and 6 weeks. Not sure if there are other benefits to those dates for certain... Good question!

I did this on my current grow, and I'm pleased with the results so far.

EDIT - Sorry, I'm high. I didn't see that Mr. Krip answered this already, too. I think our answers are compatible.

 

[sqwheels]

Mr.K, X,

Thanks guys for the explanation, duh...it makes perfect sense, and the fact that you both gave the same reasons just adds to the fact that it's correct.

Bassman,

I've started reading that thread and you're right, it's quite a read. Thanks for the post.

SteveHman,

I wasn't sure exactly why, but I was convinced when I saw 420fied doing it. And now that I've done it, I know it works.

There was quite the debate over it on X's thread, pro's and con's given and good reasons for/against. But overall on an indoor grow I think it's the way to go. My Wonder Woman clones are proof enough for me.

 

[OG13]

There was quite the debate over it on X's thread, pro's and con's given and good reasons for/against. But overall on an indoor grow I think it's the way to go. My Wonder Woman clones are proof enough for me.

You are the ultimate critic/customer/patient....that's why you need to experiment a little bit on each grow. That's what makes you an excellent farmer down the road. Each setup is unique-- water, climate, nutes etc.

Refresh me on your current regime....GH 3 part, a little epsom, and hard tap water, correct. What def's do you think you are seeing? I wonder if you could use 1/2 bottled RO w/ your tap water as an experiment to see if they look better? Maybe for a week or 2. It may cost more if it convinces you that you need a RO unit......

You may want to try a different nute line if you want to stay with your current tap water. By experimenting, you may find a line that works great w/ hard water. I'm not recommending expensive--I use DynaGro and Bloom and believe Mr Smith likes it as well. It is cheap and has been around a long time too.

 

[sqwheels]

Hi All,

I thought I'd post a couple pics even tho it's not Monday...I think I still have some water/feed issues and since this journal is for me as much as anyone who wants to follow I wanted to document

the body of Wh Widow has several yellowing leaves on her lateral branches

I picked a bunch and thru in a nice green one for contrast,

this may be just normal aging but...

her little popcorn buds on the lateral branches, if you look close at the little leaves, they look ill, kinda weak and curled under

I thought a while back this was signs of the claw, I flushed real good and reduced nute ppm's and started giving plain water after every 3rd feeding, so every 4th day.

Here's a couple of the Wonder Woman, she has a different look...her tops have older leaves left after defoliation @ 21 days, these have burnt tips and are curling upwards

and her middle has leaves with lighter centers and darker tips

All of these plants have been getting basically the same feed schedule...the only difference is that Wonder Woman is in promix and Wh Widow is in per/verm hempy mix. Lately feed has been 1100ppm and 5.8-6.0pH

Any ideas?

Thanks for looking

 

[Mr. Krip]

Hmmmmm.....good one, Sqwheels...

The truth is, I'm not sure why you're having problems, but may be water issues again. The yellowing on the white widow looks like a N deficiency and the Wonder Woman with the brown, curled tips, looks like a Magnesium deficiency.

The real question is "why is it you're having these deficiencies?"

Your nutes and PH seem good, so I'm really not sure as to the root cause.

FYI...In situations like these, a good flush can't hurt!

 

[sqwheels]

Hi Folks,

I'd like to take a moment and tell all our members who are Vets



We sooo appreciate your service and sacrifices.

 

[sqwheels]

Hi Mr.K,

I was thinking the same thing about the flush.

 

[Vapedogg223]

Hi Folks,

I'd like to take a moment and tell all our members who are Vets



We sooo appreciate your service and sacrifices.

for the kind words sqwheels!

 

[sqwheels]

Hi All,

Wow, I can not believe it's been another week already...Where does the time go?

I haven't been able to get more than a couple minutes at a time all week long to come visiting. I'll try to catch up on all your journals soon.


Ok, weekly update
White Widow and Wonder Woman day 43

The widows cola is about 8" long and 2" thick now and real sticky

but her body still has yellowing leaves

She's got 5 sets of symetrical buds all the way down her main stalk

and she's got some real nice nugs on her side branches

Wonder Woman cola shots, only got a shot of two out of three

one of her side branches

and a bud shot

her body shows some nute issues too

And a couple of the Wonder Woman clones day 35

A few thoughts... for what they're worth
I spent most of the day making calls and getting RO water around and available to me. I plan on flushing tomorrow, it will be quite the job as they are big and branchy now, and very top heavy.

The RO I got has 0 ppm and a 6.8 pH. (my Milwaukee tester has a +/- of .2) Here's my ??? is it ok to flush with pH the way it is and finish by watering using a 5.8 pH. If I have to pH, I'll have to siphon a gallon at a time and then pH down. I don't want to have to do it like that if it won't harm the girls, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that pH 7 was toxic to MJ. Is this true?

Also I should defoliate again, it's time, but the fan leaves are the first indicator of something off. If my plants are using those fan leaves to make up for some deficiency and I remove them it may have an adverse affect on them. I'm a little concerned about that, so I left them for now, maybe after flushing I'll take them off.

As hard as I've tried I'm just not sure what my nute problems are. I've got a bunch of pictures posted in my photos and I've studied them all carefully but I can't pinpoint any one nutrient. If you have any ideas or suggestions, they would be appreciated.

Thanks for looking



Happy Growing Everybody

 

[Bassman59]

Just wondering, what's your ppm at with that ro water? If it isnt too high, it could be nitrogen def. ya? I know we dont want to add nitrogen during flower per se, and some yellowing is natural right? My thought process is that if the PPM is low, you may be able to bump the feed up, thereby adding a small amount of N at the same time but not enough to effect taste or weird out the plant. It doesnt look like a lot of leaves though.

But hell I'm a newb so take it with a grain of salt for sure.

 

[Vapedogg223]

A few thoughts... for what they're worth
I spent most of the day making calls and getting RO water around and available to me. I plan on flushing tomorrow, it will be quite the job as they are big and branchy now, and very top heavy.

The RO I got has 0 ppm and a 6.8 pH. (my Milwaukee tester has a +/- of .2) Here's my ??? is it ok to flush with pH the way it is and finish by watering using a 5.8 pH. If I have to pH, I'll have to siphon a gallon at a time and then pH down. I don't want to have to do it like that if it won't harm the girls, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that pH 7 was toxic to MJ. Is this true?

Also I should defoliate again, it's time, but the fan leaves are the first indicator of something off. If my plants are using those fan leaves to make up for some deficiency and I remove them it may have an adverse affect on them. I'm a little concerned about that, so I left them for now, maybe after flushing I'll take them off.

As hard as I've tried I'm just not sure what my nute problems are. I've got a bunch of pictures posted in my photos and I've studied them all carefully but I can't pinpoint any one nutrient. If you have any ideas or suggestions, they would be appreciated.

Thanks for looking

Hey Sqwheels, you got me thinking about your water... First, I grow is soil, and while I wouldn't call it "toxic" a PH of 7 in soil is entering lockout range, but won't hurt for flushing... Although I was just reading through Cervantes' grow bible again, and he recommends flushing with a mild nute mix, claims it removes more of the built up salts... But that wasn't what I was thinking about.

I remembered reading quite a while ago about someone having similar issues, and I also remembered DocBud weighing in, so I started looking...

By the way, I'm slightly medicated so my apologies in advance if I get sidetracked, but I found what I was looking for in the Osmocote Plus Plant Food: Discuss Its Use With Cannabis Here! thread, here's what DocBud was saying about PH and TA:

I don't think you should use OC+ in hydro---meaning you have a reservoir of water/nutrient, pumps and an inert medium like hydroton, rockwool, etc. The product isn't designed for that.

In hempy, (perlite) I pH'd my water down to 6is....meaning anywhere from 5.7 to 6.3. Anything in that range and I was good to go.

However, your water might be different than mine, so you may or may not need to pH differently.

Here's the deal on pH....and this is not just my opinion, these are the facts...pH isn't the important thing.

Here's what a leading university has to say on the matter:
Floriculture: Fact Sheets: Greenhouse Management: Water Quality: pH and Alkalinity

Yes, you read that, pH isn't the important thing people say it is. What is important is Total Alkalinity. If the total alkalinity of your water supply is high....even if you adjust the pH down to an acceptable range, your medium's pH will still rise due to the build up of bicarbonates. This will lead to deficiencies and all sorts of problems.

Flushing will make it worse....more highly alkaline water=more accumulation of bicarbonates=increased pH of medium.

If you're growing in soil---a good quality soil----you shouldn't worry about pH. The soil acts as a buffer.

Hempy is a bit different.....there's no buffer in the medium, so the pH is more important. That's why many commercial and professional fertilizers use chelated nutrients, which make them readily available to the plant at a wide range of pH.

So...what's a grower to do?

1.)test the total alkalinity of your water.
2.)If it's within range: 30-60 ppm of Calcium (not total ppm) adjust pH down to 6ish and grow some plants.
3.)If it's out of range, dilute tap water with RO until it's within range and then adjust pH and start growing.

There are two other factors to consider:

1.)moderately alkaline water can be a good thing....it's a source of Ca and Mg which our plants love
2.)Use of phosphoric acid as a pH down increases available phosphorus to the plants. This means if you have an emotional attachment to high PK "bloom" nutes you have a good chance of creating problems with your plants, because high levels of phosphorus make zinc, iron and copper unavailable to the plants.
3.)Use of nitric acid as a pH down will increase nitrogen, which can cause other problems as well.

Test the total alkalinity of your water. If it's high.....your best bet is to dilute it with RO.

If you're in soil, and the TA is within spec....don't bother with pH....it's pointless and will only complicate the NPK mix your plants feed on.

He went on to say this:

TA is another way of measuring the amount of pH down it takes to lower pH one number....IE from 7-6. The dissolved minerals act as a buffer....and end up forming bicarbonates in the medium, which over time cause the medium pH to rise, leading to heap big trouble.

People test the runoff, see that the pH is high, so they pH their water down....but it doesn't help because of the Total Alkalinity. All that phosphorus in the pH down also messes things up.

So a good number for Total Alkalinity is 100 or lower PPM of Ca. (that's how TA is measured)

If your water is under 100, don't waste your time with CalMag.....you've got great micro's right there in your tap water, and the soil is a strong enough buffer so that you don't need to pH the water. Just water the damn plants.

On the other hand, if the TA is really high, you've got to dilute with RO until you get it to an acceptable level....100 or lower. Too low, and you'll need to add micro's.....so maybe shoot for 40-60.

This is what commercial nurseries do...they analyze the water, and design the feed and the medium around the water.

Anyway, it was just a thought, and I think you're on the right track with the RO water.

 

[sqwheels]

Let me start by thanking yall for trying to help me, I really appreciate the info and input and time it takes, much love all around for your efforts.

I'm gonna ramble for a minute on what I've done with my water issues...hopefully it will answer your ???'s and help me figure out where to go from here.

My normal process in making feed for the girls is to draw tap water into a gallon jug and let it sit on the counter open. I have 6 gal jugs and 3 1/2gal jugs that I just rotate over and over, when I empty one I fill it again and set it at the end of the train so to speak, it usually takes a few days to get around to that jug again.

I use 2 little hand held stick type testers pH is Milwaukee, TDS is HM

Tap water alone...ppm 215-240, pH 7.9-9.1 Most commonly 235 and 8.7

Now I've been giving them a combination of the following, but not all at the same time. It takes 16-18oz daily to fill the res and I slowly pour all around the edge until it starts to leak out the hole in the bottom then stop, and suck up any runoff with paper towel.

GH Floranova Bloom NPK 4-8-7, also has Ca 4%, Mg 2% water soluble, S 2% combined sulfer, Fe .1% chelated iron. Also Epsom salt MgSO4-7H2O, cheap stuff from the grocery store and Plantation brand Blackstrap Unsulfered Molasses. I forget who's tip this was, but I got this specific brand because it has low sodium, that was the important point.

When necessary I use GH pH down to adjust, it contains, I just looked today, duh, phosphoric acid, citric acid and mono ammonium phosphate. I don't know what these are, like I've said before many times...I'm no chemist.

When I use plain tap water I have to pH down, I use a dropper, the one that came with my GH pH'ing kit, it takes 15-17 drops per gallon to lower the pH 2.8, like I said tap is usually 8.7 and I try to pH around 6.0. I've fed with early ppm's @ 700 and later as high as 1300ppm, but had to back that off, it caused some tip burn, lately it's been 1050-1130 with pH's between 5.6 and 6.2, here's why...depending on how much GH bloom I add it pH's itself real close to 6.0. 1/2 t adds 250ppm, 1 t adds 500ppm and so forth. When the ppm's where @ 1300 then the pH started to drop off more...@ 1100-1200 bloom alone it's steady @ 5.7-6.1


So, man I'm rambling...sorry

1-1/2 - 2 t Bloom adds 800-950 ppm's and pH's to 5.8 all by itself, no adjustments needed

1/2 t Epsom adds 250 ppm's

Molasses, with this method adds 250 ppm's, I boil a small pot of water for 5 minutes or so, let it cool a little, scoop about 3/4 of a C off the top, add 1 T of molasses and stir until well diluted, then let completely cool, then add to pre mixed nutes.

I have mixed these 3 things into their feeding schedule but never all in the same days feed...I have mixed tap, bloom, epsom...tap, bloom, molasses...tap, epsom...and plain water every 4th day.

always keeping the ppm's and pH in these range 1050-1130 and 5.7-6.2 for the last 2 weeks now.

wow, what a mouthful...almost done.

I have RO now, it's got 0 ppm's and pH'd @ 6.7-6.8 the meter kept going back and forth with a little swish...after 5 minutes of waiting.

ok, keeping in mind that these girls are @ 44days and showing 15-20% amber I'll probably want to harvest in a couple weeks, I watch the trics to decide when to cut.

Today, I have the help I'll need and I plan to flush...after reading your replies I think I'll mix up that water RO/tap in such a way to give it 50-100 ppm's then add 1/2 t = 250 ppm's of bloom so it will pH itself...hopefully. Anyway this is where I'm going to start, if you see some serious flaw with this plan please let me know...soon, helps on the way as I'm typing this.



Thank you so much