SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[Azimuth]

So on a chemical level do the anaerobic microbes bond O2 molecules to the nutes? or does regular soil biology process it 1 last time before the plants consume it?

Yeah, I have no real idea, but think it is the latter.

In my original SIP builds with my normal organic mix, I used hydroton clay balls to keep the mix out of the water, fearing anaerobic conditions not mixing well with the organics in my mix.

What I got was water roots in that hydroton area but a seeming inability for the plants to take up nutrients that way. I had a nitrogen deficiency and not even my Fish Amino Acid nutes was able to correct it until I fed it to the soil from the top.

In my more recent pot design I put my mix all the way to the bottom of the pot with no apparent problems, so I think the soil microbes must be involved in the action.

 

[Gee64]

Ok very cool. One day I intend to make the time to explore KNF. I will keep this in mind.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok very cool. One day I intend to make the time to explore KNF. I will keep this in mind.

KNF  and Jadam. I use both, the first from the father and the second from the son.

 

[Gee64]

My 1st lesson

 

[Azimuth]

My 1st lesson

That's a freebie, from page one of my 'Alchemy' thread.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Buds, My soil has been feeling like freshly watered for over a month, res was also filled over a month ago and now at 1/3. And now with the plant a bit bigger it's finally speeding up.
I should wait a bit once it's empty?
But I'm wicking through hydroton should I really let that dry out? as now it's pretty much in motion.

I'm running straight FFOF soil with no perlite or anything for aeration. I think this might be causing my soil to stay a little too wet. You have the hydroton so you'll probably be fine.

 

[Gee64]

That's a freebie, from page one of my 'Alchemy' thread.

Yeah I will get there Azi...I will. Its a time management thing.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Hey Buds,

I've had deficiencies (or what look like it) on my last three grows. First two were P I think, and the current one looks like N, although I jacked up my nutes on the latest one to see if I could over feed it and looks like I w as successful as I may be getting lockouts because of it. @Gee64 thought it could be a need for more calcium to help offset other things so I increased that and, while still early, looks like it maybe is helping.

So, it could be several things going on with these plants.

Could be that the faster growth is causing the plants to need more than normal feedings, but if that were the case, why is that not also true of coco and hydro?

In my case, it could be that I don't have my feeding mix dialed in yet (which I think is definitely contributory to my issues), but it also could be other things as well.

Did you have the yellowing leaves on your previous grows? I think upping your N per Shed's calcs is a good place to start. You could also try going back to just watering them once a day in flower and see if that helps as they will dry more thoroughly in between. If it does, that might help narrow down possible solutions.

Em doesn't seem to have the yellowing issues with her larger reservoirs, so it doesn't seem to be a consistent issue with the container design.

I doubt it's the feed because Maxi Bloom says 5.6 gr. per gal. is the max. I'm feeding at 6 gr. per gal. with 3 ml. Cal-Mag. Actually, I gave this plant away, but since it's happened 3 grows in a row now I know it's not the strain. I still want to get it figured out before it happens again this grow.
I'm thinking more aeration in the soil should help some. Or it would at least tell me, it's not because the soil is too wet. Well, off to the store to get the perlite.

 

[Buds Buddy]

My theory is that as long as there is some water down there the plant has access to all it wants so there is little advantage to keeping the res maxed out, and there are potential negatives that could be associated like a higher perched water table and the potential for the reservoir water to go stale.

Now you're talking what I think is happening.

I'm not sip-savvy Buds but I can tell you that lack of oxygen can and will lead to pretty much every nutritional deficiency there is if you are growing in living soil. Im not sure about synthetics but likely there too.

This is because when a nutrient is in the soil it has to be attached to an oxygen molecule for the system to recognize it as aerobic. Unattached it is anaerobic.

Microbes that prepare the food into plant friendly nutrition breathe air as well so without air you have no microbes to prepare the food. One part of the food prep is attaching that oxygen molecule.

Then there is your soil itself. Air is 78% nitrogen so if you are too wet, that air can't get in. No air, no nitrogen.

As for top watering, It is possible to do without detriment but only to the point where it refills your res to the desired level as the water will flow down. Too much and it will come out the overflow, but really that sounds counter-intuitive to sipping to me.

I use wicking, which really is a different version of sipping, but my res isn't attached, its a jar or bucket below the pot with wicks pulling the water up but still giving me that air gap. I also use cloth pots so over watering isn't possible.

As for perlite, think of it as a reef in the ocean, its a place that things (microbes) can hide and establish themselves into, but if you are using something else for aereation, such as rice hulls or whatever then you are still achieving the reef effect.

Perlite is inert so it goes round and round in my soil reammending without interfering so thats why its my preference.

Azi mentioned calcium. Its more than a nutrient. In living soil its the main ingredient as it sets the colloidal charge to fill the colloidal plates with the proper ratio of all nutrients (aka organic chelation, but as nature designed it, not General Hydroponics, FoxFarms, etc..) so if its low, then your soil kitchen isn't able to properly load those plates and what does get loaded can and will get locked out as the charge isn't correct so nutrients stick to each other.

Different foods get locked out depending on how low it is.

PH is what allows cec to release the nutes from the plates. Different nutes swap out with hydrogen at different ph's and fall off the plate (become available, no longer locked out).

Thats why Cal-Mag is such a good rescue tool. It corrects the chelation and it also neutralizes magnesium back to its needed electrical state.

When calcium gets low in the soil the cal to mag ratio gets out of whack.

Magnesium starts to get electrically sticky and ties up other nutrients. It likes nitrogen the most so low cal in living soil usually shows as a nitro def 1st.

Calcium also, by using its double positive charge, which makes it your strongest electrolyte, sets the floculation of your soil.

Think of your soil particles as dinner plates stacked in the cupboard and held together by magnetism. Changing the charge with calcium changes that magnetism.

When you hold 2 magnets together they stick. Turn one around and they repel but spin around and stick by their own means.

When Calcium corrects the electricity in the soil structure it changes the polarities in the particles and every 2nd plate in the stack stands on edge forming I-beam structures in the soil particles that become hallways for air,water,microbes fungi... you get the picture.

Inside those hallways are soil particles laying everywhere. Some are huge boulders, some are pebbles, some are sand. Capillary action of water prefers the sand 1st as small particles have more surface area and capillary action needs that.

Air prefers the large gaps between the boulders to rush thru uninhibited.

When you get your aereation and electrical charge correct you get the proper atmosphere for water and air, plus proper food delivery.

Having an external res fill an internal one is really just using siphoning so if your soil gets too wet I would make a 2nd overflow hole a bit lower to drop the gradient but....

Azi would be a better guy to help you there.

Here is a link to a video that explains a lot about soil basics, which need to be set correctly for a chance in living soil.

Post in thread 'The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It' The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

Hope that helps you out.

Very well explained & right here is exactly where my thought process was going. Just didn't know what caused what.
Thanks a lot for the detailed info.

 

[Buds Buddy]

In fact, it is true of coco and hydro. There you feed with less dosage, but constantly, unlike soil. The plants do get more nutes in those systems.

Hmmm, I feed nutes every time. Never just water. I guess I should find out if I'm suppose to do that with Maxi-Gro.
I've just been using it the same way I use Mega Crop.

 

[Kanno26]

Hi SIP club, I'd like to show you my first attempt at SIP it's Bubble Kush and it's 8 weeks in veg today and it's going to flower tomorrow. Grows under zeus 600w pro from lumatek. And I think she looks great. What do you think colleagues?

 

[StoneOtter]

Hi SIP club, I'd like to show you my first attempt at SIP it's Bubble Kush and it's 8 weeks in veg today and it's going to flower tomorrow. Grows under zeus 600w pro from lumatek. And I think she looks great. What do you think colleagues?

No deficiencies there Kanno!

 

[Azimuth]

Hi SIP club, I'd like to show you my first attempt at SIP it's Bubble Kush and it's 8 weeks in veg today and it's going to flower tomorrow. Grows under zeus 600w pro from lumatek. And I think she looks great. What do you think colleagues?

I would have to agree, @Kanno26 . And I love that you're doing a side-by-side comparison between SIP, Airpots, and cloth grow bags in your current grow.

 

[013]

Siskel & Ebert sez 5 thumbs up….

Wow, shes gorgeous man- that’s the picture of health!!

 

[Azimuth]

Azi, what are your thoughts on adding the home made calcium to the res? Does it appear to be moving upwards thru the soil?

No apparent issues doing it that way but you've made the comment that calcium is heavy and tends to fall in the soil column. It does do several things though, some for the soil and some for the plant. Maybe it's best to split the baby and do some of each; foliar, top feed and through the reservoir.

It  is water soluble so maybe through the reservoir would be sufficient but I think that would be something to test after I get things a bit better dialed in.

 

[Gee64]

No apparent issues doing it that way but you've made the comment that calcium is heavy and tends to fall in the soil column. It does do several things though, some for the soil and some for the plant. Maybe it's best to split the baby and do some of each; foliar, top feed and through the reservoir.

It  is water soluble so maybe through the reservoir would be sufficient but I think that would be something to test after I get things a bit better dialed

I agree. I'm really hoping putting it in the res works for everything calcium. Has your nitro def cleared up?

 

[Azimuth]

I agree. I'm really hoping putting it in the res works for everything calcium. Has your nitro def cleared up?

Hard to say. Things seem to have stabilized but that may be just what I want to see and it's hard to tell for sure, so tonight I cut the tips of each of the leaves showing an issue so I can better tell if has stopped spreading or not.

I don't want to cut the leaves off entirely since if it has not been resolved the plant will just start taking what it needs from the next leaf up and I'd rather have it take what it needs from the already compromised leaves first.

The other thing I'm going to do is start misting the top of the soil daily with my calcium water. I mist it everyday anyway (and twice a day in veg) to try to keep my mulch layer moist and working so this will give a light dose, frequently, of calcium. I'll do that for a while and see if there are any negative effects.

I'm assuming that the calcium from a light mist will work its way lower thru the soil over time, especially if I periodically top water with my Jadam nutes, and this option will also allow for using it as a foliar spray as well.

If calcium is as heavy as you say and generally falls down thru the mix, this seems like a better alternative than hoping the capillary action is strong enough to carry it upwards through the entire pot.

 

[Gee64]

Smart idea on clipping the leaves.

 

[Gee64]

Could be that the faster growth is causing the plants to need more than normal feedings, but if that were the case, why is that not also true of coco and hydro?

In my case, it could be that I don't have my feeding mix dialed in yet (which I think is definitely contributory to my issues), but it also could be other things as well.

Azi, I wonder if the plants extra effort into making water roots is detracting from its volume of feeder roots and at a certain size of foliage the feeder roots can't keep up?

Also maybe Emilya has bigger pots so more feeder roots?

All I really have to study so far is this swick sprout but thats a lot of water roots and only a few feeders up top.

Ever sacrifice a plant when your deficiencies arise and disect the rootball?

 

[Hash Hound]

I guess the specific question would be, does one need a higher concentration of nutes in the mix to keep up with a SIP grow? Or maybe it needs a lower concentration to avoid excess and lockout.

hey @Azimuth I've always gone on the lighter side of nutes, but since I've been using the wicks I have had some deficiencies. Now I add more nutes and haven't had any problems.