Melville's Doug's Varin Winter Grow

[Melville Hobbes]

Flip in t minus 15...
Days that is.
Here are the before and after training images from this morning. There are a few growth tips in there, and I had to angle the carhooks, as the new soil was too loose to hold them against the pull of the plant. There are also growth tips along the main stems, which are now going to get a bit more light, bent over.

Before

And after

Before again

And after.

I'm going to give her a week, and then see if I need to thin out some of those inner leaves. My humidity is low enough that I've been able to get away with a lot more bushiness without mould than I would be comfortable with if it were getting up to the 70%s.

 

[Azimuth]

I'm not sure non-decarbed THCV would have the effects I'm looking for.

Almost all the cannabinoid studies I have seen have been done with decarbed bud, but that doesn't mean the cannabinoids are ineffective without doing so. Quite the contrary, in fact. Some of the cannabinoids are quite volatile and disappear into the air with even low amounts of heat. Some of them you smell when you get next to a flowering plant. To me, that's aroma therapy at its best!

The cannabinoids have a homeostasis affect on the body, essentially bringing things back into balance so your body and mind can heal itself. So, the more you can preserve, the better the effect can be.

According to Dr William Courtney, who has studied the raw/acidic version more than most any one else, it is because of the low temperature evaporation of some of the cannabinoids, that taking them raw can actually have an increased impact on the body. Plus these acidic versions connect with different receptors sometimes so who knows if those might be the magic connection for you?

And, since there is no psychoactive effect, one can significantly increase the dose taken, leading to even more impact.

The science has a long way to go to catch up with what this plant can do for us, but I wouldn't discount the raw/acidic version until you try it and confirm your thesis that it won't work for you.

 

[Nine Toed Hippie]

Almost all the cannabinoid studies I have seen have been done with decarbed bud, but that doesn't mean they are ineffective without doing so. Quite the contrary, in fact. Some of the cannabinoids are quite volatile and disappear into the air with even low amounts of heat.

The cannabinoids have a homeostasis affect on the body, essentially bringing things back into balance so your body and mind can heal itself. So, the more you can preserve, the better the effect can be.

According to Dr William Courtney, who has studied the raw version more than most any others, it is because of the low temperature evaporation of some of the cannabinoids, that taking them raw can actually have an increased impact on the body. Plus the acidic versions connect with different receptors sometimes so who knows if those might be the magic connection for you?

And, since there is no psychoactive effect, one can significantly increase the dose taken, leading to even more impact.

The science has a long way to go to catch up with what this plant can do for us, but I wouldn't discount the raw version until you try it and confirm your thesis that it won't work for you.

That’s is amazing information. Thanks for sharing.

NTH

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Almost all the cannabinoid studies I have seen have been done with decarbed bud, but that doesn't mean they are ineffective without doing so. Quite the contrary, in fact. Some of the cannabinoids are quite volatile and disappear into the air with even low amounts of heat.

The cannabinoids have a homeostasis affect on the body, essentially bringing things back into balance so your body and mind can heal itself. So, the more you can preserve, the better the effect can be.

According to Dr William Courtney, who has studied the raw version more than most any others, it is because of the low temperature evaporation of some of the cannabinoids, that taking them raw can actually have an increased impact on the body. Plus the acidic versions connect with different receptors sometimes so who knows if those might be the magic connection for you?

And, since there is no psychoactive effect, one can significantly increase the dose taken, leading to even more impact.

The science has a long way to go to catch up with what this plant can do for us, but I wouldn't discount the raw version until you try it and confirm your thesis that it won't work for you.

THCV's evaporation point is actually significantly higher than THC, but I do take your point.
I've never tried the acid versions of any cannabinoids, so I cant say for sure what the effect might be, but I'll look into it. THCV was discovered way back, so there is a bit more actual research done on it compared to some of the others.
The specific effects of THCV I'm interested in are definitely from the decarbed version though. It was tested through smoking, rather than any other route.
I'll see if there are any studies done on the acid version.

 

[Nine Toed Hippie]

What ailments/symptoms are you treating Mel? I ask because I’m really interested in increasing my knowledge in regards to what the different cannabinoids do.

NTH

 

[HashGirl]

Well, these were bud from LPs, so I'm pretty sure they were as listed on the packaging. They were from two companies that have a clean record with Health Canada for their product matching the percentages listed on the pack.
I was thinking about getting some seeds for a strain listed as 5:3 THC:CBD, and having an average of 15% THC, so I bought some high CBD bud to find out if it would help me or not. It's looking like "not" for me.

Have you tried searching for strains based on the terpenes that work well for anxiety and panic attacks? That's one thing I love about the OCS is that I can search it for strains with the terpenes I like. Do you know which terpenes work best for you?

The terpenes that I know that help with anxiety are:

• Linalool
• Limonene
• Myrcene
• beta-Caryophyllene
• alph-Pinene

you can use the glass jars to infuse smaller amounts as the others mentioned. don't cap them if you do, leave them loose or use aluminum foil on top. if you cap them tight they will explode.

Sue covered hers with tin foil.

Lol, not to the site I found it on, don't want to be spanked.

There is a thread for that, you know.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

For THCV specifically, anxiety attacks. I didn't get them for a long time, and they were pretty much completely gone during my time in the military despite the stress. I think that was partly from from the focus on physical fitness.
When I released from the Army, I kept up the fitness for a while, but it's hard to really keep up to those levels without a lot of self discipline, and I let it slide a bit too much.
I'm getting back there, slowly, but the increased heart rate, cortisol, and adrenaline released through exercise have turned out to be a trigger for the attacks. The first one I had after release was triggered by an intense bout of HIIT training. I thought I was having a heart attack at first, only there wasn't any chest pain. The worst part about the stress hormone aspect of the attacks is it tends to derail logical thinking and gives you an intense feeling that there is something very wrong. Makes the worst case scenario seem most likely.
THCV has been shown to counter the increased heart rate, and there may be some effect on the stress hormones. I still have to read more of the studies myself. Do a kind of amateur meta-analysis of what I can find.

Doesn't hurt that it also seems to rev the metabolism, and that the stimulant like effects seem to parallel ritalin, even to the effect on apatite, and the appeal of food. I'm one of the ADD kids who actually was helped by ritalin. I know many weren't.

 

[Azimuth]

THCV's evaporation point is actually significantly higher than THC, but I do take your point.
I've never tried the acid versions of any cannabinoids, so I cant say for sure what the effect might be, but I'll look into it. THCV was discovered way back, so there is a bit more actual research done on it compared to some of the others.
The specific effects of THCV I'm interested in are definitely from the decarbed version though. It was tested through smoking, rather than any other route.
I'll see if there are any studies done on the acid version.

But I guess that's my point. The studies providing your conclusion were likely only done one way. The process of heating to decarb literally means to "decarboxylate" or remove a carbon atom from the original string. So it is, in fact, a slightly different molecule that matches up slightly differently with the body's receptors. Doesn't mean it's better or worse, just different. So, if it wasn't tested both ways, one can't make any judgment on the acidic version.

The difference is the acidic version likely doesn’t get you high, which is what most people think carries the benefits or at least tells them it's "working." Wrong assumption. THC, which is mostly what gets you high, has been bred to be the dominant cannabinoid because that's what the recreational market wants, but most of the other stuff in there like terpenes and flavonoids carry their own health benefits.

Kind of like taking turmeric on its own vs. taking it with black pepper. On its own, turmeric is not all that well absorbed by the body, so its medicinal effect is rather limited. However, when taken with black pepper the medicinal anti-inflammatory benefits are magnified. The pepper helps the "key fit the lock."

Since there aren't likely studies done both ways, you're sorta on your own to do your own study. And, as a grower, you have a lot more freedom to try it out. Maybe try it with the sugar leaves first if you don't want to give up any of your bud.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Have you tried searching for strains based on the terpenes that work well for anxiety and panic attacks? That's one thing I love about the OCS is that I can search it for strains with the terpenes I like. Do you know which terpenes work best for you?

The terpenes that I know that help with anxiety are:

• Linalool
• Limonene
• Myrcene
• beta-Caryophyllene
• alph-Pinene

Sue covered hers with tin foil.



There is a thread for that, you know.

I've tried looking at terpenes, but some just don't seem to have the same effects on me. That said, my favourite strains all seem to have high levels of limonene, myrcene, and pinene in them, and often have measurable amounts of caryophyllene. So maybe there's something to that. I don't seem to react well to linalool, it might be why I hate the scent of lavender.

 

[Nine Toed Hippie]

Nice knowledge bombs dropping in here! It sounds like I’m dealing with the same anxiety you are Mel.

NTH

 

[Melville Hobbes]

But I guess that's my point. The studies providing your conclusion were likely only done one way. The process of heating to decarb literally means to "decarboxylate" or remove a carbon atom from the original string. So it is, in fact, a slightly different molecule that matches up slightly differently with the body's receptors. Doesn't mean it's better or worse, just different. So, if it wasn't tested both ways, one can't make any judgment on the acidic version.

The difference is the acidic version likely doesn’t get you high, which is what most people think carries the benefits or at least tells them it's "working." Wrong assumption. THC, which is mostly what gets you high, has been bred to be the dominant cannabinoid because that's what the recreational market wants, but most of the other stuff in there like terpines and flavonoids carry their own health benefits.

Kind of like taking turmeric on its own vs. taking it with black pepper. On its own, turmeric is not all that well absorbed by the body, so its medicinal effect is rather limited. However, when taken with black pepper the medicinal anti-inflammatory benefits are magnified. The pepper helps the "key fit the lock."

Since there aren't likely studies done both ways, you're sorta on your own to do your own study. And, as a grower, you have a lot more freedom to try it out. Maybe try it with the sugar leaves first if you don't want to give up any of your bud.

There's a key distinction there though. The fact that the acidic version of THC doesn't get you high does mean that it is having a different effect on the body than the decarbed version. The high is a result of that difference in action. I'm not saying that your point is invalid, I'm just saying that if I have evidence that the decarbed version has the effects that I'm looking for, that is a good reason to primarily focus on that.

I'm all for testing out the acidic version, but I would like to have some idea of what the removal of the carboxyl group does in terms of effects for cannabinoids in general, and THCV in particular when it comes to the endocannabinoid system. One thing that comes to mind is THCVs relationship to THC. In low concentrations it's an antagonist, interfering with THC, and at higher concentrations it's an agonist, so makes THCs effects stronger. Why? How does that work?

I have a lot of reading on this subject to do. Almost makes me feel like I'm back in school.

 

[Azimuth]

There's a key distinction there though. The fact that the acidic version of THC doesn't get you high does mean that it is having a different effect on the body than the decarbed version. The high is a result of that difference in action. I'm not saying that your point is invalid, I'm just saying that if I have evidence that the decarbed version has the effects that I'm looking for, that is a good reason to primarily focus on that.

I'm all for testing out the acidic version, but I would like to have some idea of what the removal of the carboxyl group does in terms of effects for cannabinoids in general, and THCV in particular when it comes to the endocannabinoid system. One thing that comes to mind is THCVs relationship to THC. In low concentrations it's an antagonist, interfering with THC, and at higher concentrations it's an agonist, so makes THCs effects stronger. Why? How does that work?

I have a lot of reading on this subject to do. Almost makes me feel like I'm back in school.

But maybe the positive effects of THC would be even better if not modified, as in THC-A since it is a slightly different version. That's why I say you'll like have to test it yourself to find out. And even the same molecule can have different affects on different people, or even the same person like your observations about time of day that you've taken it. Maybe it's time of day, but maybe it was instead the proximity to a certain type of food you ate around that time, or something else.

There's lots we don't know about this plant which I think is one of the reasons doctors don't like to prescribe it. They like neat little packages of standardized doses, with known effects (and side effects).

 

[HashGirl]

Kind of like taking turmeric on its own vs. taking it with black pepper. On its own, turmeric is not all that well absorbed by the body, so its medicinal effect is rather limited. However, when taken with black pepper the medicinal anti-inflammatory benefits are magnified. The pepper helps the "key fit the lock."

I did not know this. Thank you.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

But maybe the positive effects of THC would be even better if not modified, as in THC-A since it is a slightly different version. That's why I say you'll like have to test it yourself to find out. And even the same molecule can have different affects on different people, or even the same person like your observations about time of day that you've taken it. Maybe it's time of day, but maybe it was instead the proximity to a certain type of food you ate around that time, or something else.

There's lots we don't know about this plant which I think is one of the reasons doctors don't like to prescribe it. They like neat little packages of standardized doses, with known effects (and side effects).

Maybe, but when it comes to THC, I am looking for the high, lol.

Look, we don't really disagree on needing to test out the acid version of THCV. There's even a CBDV that bears looking into. I've heard that they're trying to find a CBDV strain that breeds true for uses against siezures.

As to the time of day thing, I'm not the only one who has noticed that cannabis has a different effect for them based on that. There are different levels of various hormones in the body based on time of day, and those seem to be the consistent factor.

That's one of the reasons I always try a strain myself, rather than relying on what others have experienced. The hormonal balance of the body will be different for everyone, and changes with time of day, and even mood.

 

[Azimuth]

I did not know this. Thank you.

Yeah, most of my "issues" are inflammation related so I've gone down a bunch of rabbit holes chasing solutions. Because of it, I now grow my own ginger and turmeric in my garden (in pots because my season is too short).

 

[Azimuth]

Maybe, but when it comes to THC, I am looking for the high, lol.

Ah, well there's that. But also doesn't have to be one or the other. You may find a standard base line of the acidic versions generally works well, but the decarbed version can step in for more intense attacks. Or you may find it does nothing for you and is a waste of good bud. And NOBODY wants that!

That's one of the reasons I always try a strain myself, rather than relying on what others have experienced. The hormonal balance of the body will be different for everyone, and changes with time of day, and even mood.

Right on. Another reason the doctors don't like it.

 

[bluter]

honestly try pills.

i use both cbd and thc pills. the thc pills control adhd and will clip any anxiety. the cbd helps regulate it as well, but i take those primarily for a diverticulitis condition. it helps with multiple things.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

honestly try pills.

i use both cbd and thc pills. the thc pills control adhd and will clip any anxiety. the cbd helps regulate it as well, but i take those primarily for a diverticulitis condition. it helps with multiple things.

I may end up going that way, but THC alone doesn't prevent the attacks. I'm really looking to find something to end attacks as they're starting. That's why I'm happy with the success of the sublingual dosing.
One thing I'm thinking of trying is vaping at a temp high enough to get the THC, but low enough to leave the THCV behind. At that point I can either infuse it into vg for sublinguals, or into coconut oi for capsules and edibles.
I mostly have control of my ADD. Outside of school I developed strategies to deal with it, and in some situations it's an advantage.

 

[Stunger]

Almost all the cannabinoid studies I have seen have been done with decarbed bud, but that doesn't mean the cannabinoids are ineffective without doing so. Quite the contrary, in fact. Some of the cannabinoids are quite volatile and disappear into the air with even low amounts of heat. Some of them you smell when you get next to a flowering plant. To me, that's aroma therapy at its best!

The cannabinoids have a homeostasis affect on the body, essentially bringing things back into balance so your body and mind can heal itself. So, the more you can preserve, the better the effect can be.

According to Dr William Courtney, who has studied the raw/acidic version more than most any one else, it is because of the low temperature evaporation of some of the cannabinoids, that taking them raw can actually have an increased impact on the body. Plus these acidic versions connect with different receptors sometimes so who knows if those might be the magic connection for you?

And, since there is no psychoactive effect, one can significantly increase the dose taken, leading to even more impact.

The science has a long way to go to catch up with what this plant can do for us, but I wouldn't discount the raw/acidic version until you try it and confirm your thesis that it won't work for you.

I think SweetSue made thread on infusing with freshly harvested buds before drying to get as much of the cannabinoid content as possible. I don't have the link on hand, but it would seem to have it's advantages too.

 

[Azimuth]

I think SweetSue made thread on infusing with freshly harvested buds before drying to get as much of the cannabinoid content as possible. I don't have the link on hand, but it would seem to have it's advantages too.

Right, but I think that was a thread on Fresh Harvest Oil, FHO?

If so, she was still decarbing as part of the long oil cooking process. I was talking more about keeping the cannabinoids in their acidic forms.