Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates
- Thread starter Skybound
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- #322
Skybound
Well-Known Member
EDTA, and if memory serves, pretty much all chelating acids that aren't aminos are toxic to plants in large quantities. As it relates to micronutrients that top out at around 2-3ppm per micro, it's a safe measure that the plants can deal with, but I suspect would be toxic if added with 50ppm of Mg. Daniel touches on this in the comments of THIS blog entry, but I recall reading a more explanation elsewhere, I just can't remember where on the web I saw that info.
Hey Sky!
So i got all my stuff delivered and went with a simple 2 part formula.
Think its ok ? From all that im reading, and trying to understand, these plants are pretty forgiving, they will grow well within a wide range. Most of the recipes im finding online are highly debated, but they are all fairly similar and someone obviously is having success with them. Am I right in these assumptions ?
Anyhowz, in my quest to be long term frugal in my growing expenses, and having a fair amount of seeds to play with. I mixed the following, and have started feeding 3 plants, 1 in coco, and 2 in DWC. Ill continue that sage in my other thread.
For the mix, 2L :
Weights for 2 liters.
So i got all my stuff delivered and went with a simple 2 part formula.
Think its ok ? From all that im reading, and trying to understand, these plants are pretty forgiving, they will grow well within a wide range. Most of the recipes im finding online are highly debated, but they are all fairly similar and someone obviously is having success with them. Am I right in these assumptions ?
Anyhowz, in my quest to be long term frugal in my growing expenses, and having a fair amount of seeds to play with. I mixed the following, and have started feeding 3 plants, 1 in coco, and 2 in DWC. Ill continue that sage in my other thread.
For the mix, 2L :
Weights for 2 liters.
And i did not buffer the coco. I did wash it very well, and have only the bigger bits in the pot. I also did not add any perlite. Seeing where it goes. I read for coco I will often need CalMag, so I did this :
Surprised by the iron in almost all CalMag additives im seeing, Ill prolly tweak this to the more common 0.1% Fe.
Thanks a ton Sky! And whoever else drops by!
Take care folks!
Surprised by the iron in almost all CalMag additives im seeing, Ill prolly tweak this to the more common 0.1% Fe.
Thanks a ton Sky! And whoever else drops by!
Take care folks!
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- #325
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Your assumptions in your first post are all correct, and your feed chart levels all look good too. IDK how acidic coco is to know if it needs buffering, but in peat moss, it does require buffering. I've read that coco (and I think peat too) will hold a lot of K naturally, and that is why it needs to be prepped with a calmag bath. With peat though, because I need to buffer it with dolomite or calcium carbonate (I use both), I infuse a lot of calcium right into the soil as a buffer, so it's like a double benefit in that regard.
Like I said in another post, I don't know jack squat about A/B mixes, so I can't comment about the formulation, just the levels of elements you're using. I'm a major proponent of keeping all the macros separate, in their own concentrations so that I can tweak the macros as I see fit week to week. If you find that your AB formulation doesn't give you the result you seek, you're stuck and can't change anything unless you toss it all out and make a new batch of AB.
As far as Fe, most formulations I looked at all had more Fe than I use, so in future recipes I will be gradually upping the Fe and observing my crop's reactions.
Like I said in another post, I don't know jack squat about A/B mixes, so I can't comment about the formulation, just the levels of elements you're using. I'm a major proponent of keeping all the macros separate, in their own concentrations so that I can tweak the macros as I see fit week to week. If you find that your AB formulation doesn't give you the result you seek, you're stuck and can't change anything unless you toss it all out and make a new batch of AB.
As far as Fe, most formulations I looked at all had more Fe than I use, so in future recipes I will be gradually upping the Fe and observing my crop's reactions.
Hey Sky! Thanks a super ton mate for helping out!
My reasons for A/B, well pretty irrelevant these days, is that I historically travel a lot lot. So often need family to help feed. Easy to ask them to top up and add equal sums of 2 solutions, rather than a more complex addition. But I understand the merit of doing it your way. Let us see.
Hopefully I can get my lazy ass to take some pics and update the journal. Ill keep you looped!
Thanks again Sky!
My reasons for A/B, well pretty irrelevant these days, is that I historically travel a lot lot. So often need family to help feed. Easy to ask them to top up and add equal sums of 2 solutions, rather than a more complex addition. But I understand the merit of doing it your way. Let us see.
Hopefully I can get my lazy ass to take some pics and update the journal. Ill keep you looped!
Thanks again Sky!
ChickenLover
420 Member
Hey Sky thanks for this thread, literally saved my first grow.
I got a question though, I've been using HB and I'll set up a profile for let's say EC 1.0. My tap is 0.2.
When I go mix the nutes I end up with like 1.8. I've checked and calibrated my scales, bought another EC tester and calibrated both, tried using different nutes... I don't know what's up.
Is it just the ratios I should be targeting, or do I actually want 130 N, 160 K, 60 P, 100 Ca etc etc in the water?
I got a question though, I've been using HB and I'll set up a profile for let's say EC 1.0. My tap is 0.2.
When I go mix the nutes I end up with like 1.8. I've checked and calibrated my scales, bought another EC tester and calibrated both, tried using different nutes... I don't know what's up.
Is it just the ratios I should be targeting, or do I actually want 130 N, 160 K, 60 P, 100 Ca etc etc in the water?
Did you confirm the Substance details against what you have sourced locally ? I find that the substances already included with HB often have quite different compositions from what I can purchase locally. My AB solutions came out pretty spot on with the EC, im unsure about the CalMag, but I need to measure that again.
The ppm values you input in HB are what you want in your res, or a fraction of the same.
The ppm values you input in HB are what you want in your res, or a fraction of the same.
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- #329
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Ever since I started mixing my own, I quickly learned that the best I could get out of my EC meter ($20 cheapo) was to measure my feed right after I mixed it and later throughout the week to observe any changes, but when I switched my medium to peat moss, I literally stopped using all of my meters, both EC and PH. With peat, I buffer the soil PH with lime and dolemite, then it doesn't matter what the PH of my feed is. Inert media though does need to have PH corrected. Back to the EC though, they can only measure the voltage between the probes and calculate what the TDS is based on what the EC is. So you're never going to get accurate readings and can only record what the first reading is and compare successive readings to that first reading.
So for me, I put my faith in the guaranteed analysis and the companies that mine/produce the salts and trust that their instruments are way more powerful and accurate. Also, when I make my concentrates, I round off weights to use my 0.0 scale and that right there introduces an added degree of inaccuracy. My observation is that our plants are very forgiving for the most part, so minor inaccuracies will hurt nothing.
Same here, when I buy salts, I refer to what is printed on the label, or in the description given on the webpage, and input that data into HB. Perhaps it is not that important, or perhaps it is, either way, I'll extend my best effort to be accurate, but also forgive myself when I'm not.
You can input the CalMag numbers into HB and compute what it outputs at various doses. This is how I reverse engineer Megacrop with CalMag and Pro-Tekt. Farside05 is about the best there is with Megacrop that I've seen, and he starts off with 5 grams of each per gallon, so after inputtin g all 3 products into HB, I can load all 3 and set the weight to5 grams, then compute. The numbers that are rendered is what I use to save into my profiles. I have a veg profile as well as a bloom profile, and also a Micro profile that targets Megacrop and Calmag @ 5 grams, and I can then apply those PPM readings to mix up a 500 gallon concentrate and pack it all into a half gallon jug. But regardless of which line of nutes you want to emulate, as long as you can locate the Guaranteed Analyses, you're golden and can make that entire line from your own nutes, that is if you mix your salts into individual concentrates, lol.
ChickenLover
420 Member
Hey thanks for getting back to me both of you. I get what your saying about getting as close as you can and EC aren't perfect. I remember back in the thread you saying different substances have different ECs in water so it's best for seeing rez changes.
But I went back and redid all my nutes in HB and stopped doing a couple that might have been screwing me up and HBs way closer to what I'm actually seeing now.
My tap is wicked soft so I've been going crazy chasing a calcium deficiency and trying different calcium sources. I bought some calcium gluconate and it's only like 9% calcium so whatever the other 91% was raising my EC I think.
But I went back and redid all my nutes in HB and stopped doing a couple that might have been screwing me up and HBs way closer to what I'm actually seeing now.
My tap is wicked soft so I've been going crazy chasing a calcium deficiency and trying different calcium sources. I bought some calcium gluconate and it's only like 9% calcium so whatever the other 91% was raising my EC I think.
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- #331
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Aside from the lime and dolemite which isn't available, my only source of Ca is the Cal Nite. Calcium is extremely fussy when it comes to being available to the roots as PH can hinder it's uptake, as well as the concentrations of other cations namely potassium and magnesium, if either of those is too rich, less Ca will be taken up. Another limiting factor is the presence of P and S as calcium likes to bond with those and form colloids and precipitate out of the solution. Soil microbes can liberate those ions later on, but in terms of being root available now, it can be a limiting factor. Also, if there's not enough nitrate, calcium flow inside the plant will be diminished as calcium hitches a ride through the xylem with the nitrate. Finally, if the RH in the room is too high, the plant will perspire less and perspiration is also how calcium ions are moved up through the plant. If any of those 54,000 conditions are less than ideal, calcium uptake can be hindered.
For comparison, here is what my Veg and Bloom targets look like and the Megacrop with CalMag and Pro-Tekt. My numbers are inspired by that trio, but I most certainly have made any changes I wanted to make and lately, my crop has been doing really good with these targets. I'm considering upping the P and Mg slightly in bloom, but I won't be certain about that for another month or two.
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- #332
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Another thing I wanted to share is my cloning practices, and only because I'm 100% and in 8 days, sometimes 9 or 10, but a 100% in mostly 8 days I'd say is worth sharing.
With a quart of RO, I add 0.7 grams MKP which gets the TDS up to 250-400. I presume any 0-X-X bloom nutes can also be used if you don't have the MKP. I add about 1/8 TSP of fulvic/humic powder and add 1ml of Clonex rooting gel and shake thoroughly and that's it for the clone juice. the PH should naturally get to 5.5ish, if it's high, adjust it with PH down or acid. With the clone juice, I soak rockwool cubes for a few minutes to hours and go through the standard process of cloning. After removing the soaked cubes, I squeeze the bottom of the cube to force out the saturation from half of the cube, and when I release, the saturation still left in the cube is drawn down and it evens out to a really good amount of wetness for the new cutting to start out. With the 2 cups of juice the cubes were soaking in, I combine into one cup and when I cut the clones from the plant, I put them immediately into the juice for a few minutes while I clean up the undersides of the plant the clones were taken from. I then take each clone (I always take 2) out of the juice, dip it in the Clonex, then insert it down into the prepoked hole in the cube and I ensure the bottom of the stem is pushed past the bottom of the hole into the rockwool a few mm. I then tear off a piece of wool from the corner, just under the wrapping and use that piece to plug the hole around the stem.
I now use one of these heat mats that has a thermostat and keep that set to 85º. The thermostat is helpful for maintaining a good temp in the summer months whereas w/o it, I almost cooked a bunch of clones and my success rates were a lot less. I also have these printed cup holders (linked in my signature to print files), but electric tape can be used to keep the cups together and I only pop them open once daily to exchange air.
The biggest key to this all being successful IMO is that I do not feed any more juice into the cube for at least 7 days, sometimes 6. What I check for is that enough of the left behind juice in the cube evaporates off and I can tell the cube is very close to being considered dry, but once I make that determination, I add just 5ml of clone juice into the center of the cubes and put the lid/dome back on and more often than not, the very next morning, the bottom of the cube(s) will have roots on the 8th day.
With a quart of RO, I add 0.7 grams MKP which gets the TDS up to 250-400. I presume any 0-X-X bloom nutes can also be used if you don't have the MKP. I add about 1/8 TSP of fulvic/humic powder and add 1ml of Clonex rooting gel and shake thoroughly and that's it for the clone juice. the PH should naturally get to 5.5ish, if it's high, adjust it with PH down or acid. With the clone juice, I soak rockwool cubes for a few minutes to hours and go through the standard process of cloning. After removing the soaked cubes, I squeeze the bottom of the cube to force out the saturation from half of the cube, and when I release, the saturation still left in the cube is drawn down and it evens out to a really good amount of wetness for the new cutting to start out. With the 2 cups of juice the cubes were soaking in, I combine into one cup and when I cut the clones from the plant, I put them immediately into the juice for a few minutes while I clean up the undersides of the plant the clones were taken from. I then take each clone (I always take 2) out of the juice, dip it in the Clonex, then insert it down into the prepoked hole in the cube and I ensure the bottom of the stem is pushed past the bottom of the hole into the rockwool a few mm. I then tear off a piece of wool from the corner, just under the wrapping and use that piece to plug the hole around the stem.
I now use one of these heat mats that has a thermostat and keep that set to 85º. The thermostat is helpful for maintaining a good temp in the summer months whereas w/o it, I almost cooked a bunch of clones and my success rates were a lot less. I also have these printed cup holders (linked in my signature to print files), but electric tape can be used to keep the cups together and I only pop them open once daily to exchange air.
The biggest key to this all being successful IMO is that I do not feed any more juice into the cube for at least 7 days, sometimes 6. What I check for is that enough of the left behind juice in the cube evaporates off and I can tell the cube is very close to being considered dry, but once I make that determination, I add just 5ml of clone juice into the center of the cubes and put the lid/dome back on and more often than not, the very next morning, the bottom of the cube(s) will have roots on the 8th day.
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- #334
Skybound
Well-Known Member
The one in the center is in her 9th week and her pot is intentionally allowed to dry as she dies on Friday. I have 9 pots and every week it's one in and one out. That aside though, I've hit a Mg deficiency from being a little too liberal with my watering practices and is why some of the leaves have yellow veins, so I am adjusting my watering habits to more favor a dryer soil than a wetter soil, so at times I will still challenge dryness threshold.
Drive-by
some plants are just plain temperamental.......... alot of time they turn out to be the best of the lot.. I always add alittle extra cal/mag during onset...
Girls look great GL and Keepem Green
some plants are just plain temperamental.......... alot of time they turn out to be the best of the lot.. I always add alittle extra cal/mag during onset...
Girls look great GL and Keepem Green
Shameless plug for one of you kind folks to check out my pics from yesterday and advise please.
Thanks a ton!
Newbie DWC GSC Auto Grow: Please Help Me Get It Right
Hey folks! Quick question. Ive been drying for a week now. Temps are in the low 30's, RH @ bout 70%, any experience how long to dry under similar circumstances ? Buds are not dense. The snap the stem test, I suppose I choose one of the main stems to see how dry it is ? It still seems soft, not...
www.420magazine.com
Hey Sky!
A little advise here. I know you would recommend me to mix separate. But still
Thank you so much for keeping an eye out on my grow thread.
Today I noticed my A concentrate, comprising of
1. Calcium Nitrate
2. FeDTPA
3. Magnesium EDTA
4. Potassium Nitrate
Has crystals forming. I ask for your guidance please.
My concern being if it could possibly be the potassium nitrate, not that I know any better, but it may explain the droopiness in the plants now that they have started to flower. Please read my post in the grow thread Sky, thanks a ton!
Just to note, I have a CalMag concentrate, which is still fully dissolved, comprising of :
Calcium Nitrate
Iron DTPA
Magnesium EDTA
Magnesium Nitrate
A little advise here. I know you would recommend me to mix separate. But still
Thank you so much for keeping an eye out on my grow thread.
Today I noticed my A concentrate, comprising of
1. Calcium Nitrate
2. FeDTPA
3. Magnesium EDTA
4. Potassium Nitrate
Has crystals forming. I ask for your guidance please.
My concern being if it could possibly be the potassium nitrate, not that I know any better, but it may explain the droopiness in the plants now that they have started to flower. Please read my post in the grow thread Sky, thanks a ton!
Just to note, I have a CalMag concentrate, which is still fully dissolved, comprising of :
Calcium Nitrate
Iron DTPA
Magnesium EDTA
Magnesium Nitrate
- Thread starter
- #338
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Hey Sky!
A little advise here. I know you would recommend me to mix separate. But still
Thank you so much for keeping an eye out on my grow thread.
Today I noticed my A concentrate, comprising of
1. Calcium Nitrate
2. FeDTPA
3. Magnesium EDTA
4. Potassium Nitrate
Has crystals forming. I ask for your guidance please.
My concern being if it could possibly be the potassium nitrate, not that I know any better, but it may explain the droopiness in the plants now that they have started to flower. Please read my post in the grow thread Sky, thanks a ton!
Just to note, I have a CalMag concentrate, which is still fully dissolved, comprising of :
Calcium Nitrate
Iron DTPA
Magnesium EDTA
Magnesium Nitrate
In A/B mixes, there are rules regarding what can be mixed with what that I intentionally avoided learning, lol, so you're going to have to pioneer this one on your own. I opted to just keep everything separate (except the micros) to prevent any reactions and precipitation which is what you're experiencing. Also, if the A/B solution is not ideal, you're prevented from changing anything, whereas keeping all the macros in separate containers affords you the liberty of making elemental changes week to week if desired.
Cool. So is it possible for me to change this over to a 3 or maybe max 4 part concentrate ? And how would I go about that now ?
I am thinking my B concentrate comprising of all the micros + Epsom + MKP + Potassium sulphate is holding steady, so Ill continue with that.
Split part A into 2, so take the potassium or the Calcium out of the mix and make a seperate concentrate? Alternative use a variaton of the CalMag as the 3rd part ? Ill start reading this thread from top again. Ive understood what you are saying now, so thats half the battle i suppose.
I am thinking my B concentrate comprising of all the micros + Epsom + MKP + Potassium sulphate is holding steady, so Ill continue with that.
Split part A into 2, so take the potassium or the Calcium out of the mix and make a seperate concentrate? Alternative use a variaton of the CalMag as the 3rd part ? Ill start reading this thread from top again. Ive understood what you are saying now, so thats half the battle i suppose.
So i have gone and remixed Part A nute contentrate, splitting it into 2 parts now.
Part A1 with Calcium Nitrate and FeDTPA
Part A2 with Potassium Nitrate and MgEDTA
I found it much easier to dissolve the elements now, and the concentrates just have a cleaner look.
The res was changed and dosed with the new concentrate, and confirmation bias aside, the plants, especially the GSC, has perked up real fast.
To note, I have my concentration set quite high in HB, x250, even though the end EC is @ 1.4
My thinking is that I had too much of everything in Part A, causing something to fall out of suspension I suppose, let us see how this new 3 part holds up.
Part A
Calcium Nitrate
FeDTPA
Part B
Potassium Nitrate
MgEDTA
Part C
CuEDTA
Epsom
MKP
MnEDTA
Mo
SOP
ZnEDTA
Boric Acid
Eventually, if I am mixing 3 or more parts, ill reconsider my part ingredients to maximise flexibility in the feed more on the lines of what Sky is running with.
Cheers folks
Take care.
Part A1 with Calcium Nitrate and FeDTPA
Part A2 with Potassium Nitrate and MgEDTA
I found it much easier to dissolve the elements now, and the concentrates just have a cleaner look.
The res was changed and dosed with the new concentrate, and confirmation bias aside, the plants, especially the GSC, has perked up real fast.
To note, I have my concentration set quite high in HB, x250, even though the end EC is @ 1.4
My thinking is that I had too much of everything in Part A, causing something to fall out of suspension I suppose, let us see how this new 3 part holds up.
Part A
Calcium Nitrate
FeDTPA
Part B
Potassium Nitrate
MgEDTA
Part C
CuEDTA
Epsom
MKP
MnEDTA
Mo
SOP
ZnEDTA
Boric Acid
Eventually, if I am mixing 3 or more parts, ill reconsider my part ingredients to maximise flexibility in the feed more on the lines of what Sky is running with.
Cheers folks
Take care.