Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates

[NorCaliwood]

I don't care if your mental states is gone,,, we've come to understand that????? JK

 

[Skybound]

I don't care if your mental states is gone,,, we've come to understand that????? JK

I don't understand what you're asking Wood?

 

[NorCaliwood]

I am gone.

I was joking about this line.. I didn't know what you meant by I'm gone, but if your anything like me,, I was referring to our mental state.. I've been gone for along ass time............

 

[dunia]

Hi Folks

I've been dealing for quite a while hb. I just found the closest formula.

I hope I haven't done anything wrong

I prepared mixtures of all phases according to the formula here

but there is a question in my head

full grow targets.txt is divided into only 4 phases and the total ppm is unchanged.

In my previous notes, ppm rates increase according to the stages of growing, we can increase from 200 400ppm to 1400 ppm during the seedling period from the end of flowering.

So, while doing hydro, the total ppm ratio remains constant. 550-650ppm (ec1.2-1.4)?

For example, there are 12 phases divided in 12 weeks in genaral hydroponics, and the total ppm criteria are different for each.

what do you think about this?

 

[Skybound]

Hi Folks

I've been dealing for quite a while hb. I just found the closest formula.

I hope I haven't done anything wrong

I prepared mixtures of all phases according to the formula here

but there is a question in my head

full grow targets.txt is divided into only 4 phases and the total ppm is unchanged.

In my previous notes, ppm rates increase according to the stages of growing, we can increase from 200 400ppm to 1400 ppm during the seedling period from the end of flowering.

So, while doing hydro, the total ppm ratio remains constant. 550-650ppm (ec1.2-1.4)?

For example, there are 12 phases divided in 12 weeks in genaral hydroponics, and the total ppm criteria are different for each.

what do you think about this?

Without being fully aware of which product's you're using to formulate your feed, I can only comment about your elemental levels.and for the most part, they look fine and you should be close enough that your plants will thrive enough. Then just observe how your plants react to the feed, and make minor adjustments to correct any elemental imbalances. FWIW, I now formulate to Megacrop's recipe, except I added more P and use less K. Here are my targets

~Veg~
NO3 - 142.5
NH4 - 7.5
P - 45
K - 190
Ca - 130
Mg - 55
S - 68
Si - 20

~Bloom~
NO3 - 142.5
NH4 - 7.5
P - 55
K - 210
Ca - 130
Mg - 55
S - 74
Si - 40

I still feel I need to tweak the Veg regimen to get more P in there and maybe less K, but the bloom regimen is spot on and my buds get stupid fat and the trics plentiful and super sweet and flavorful. I've been using Farside's "Faux Mix" and have reused it about 6 times now with still great results.

If you have specific questions, I could probably give you better answers, but if asking about your levels, I think they're good.

 

[TysonOG]

Got about 4 pages in before I had to roll another one. Fantastic work! Thank you very much for the way you've documented everything, and your methodical style. Makes it so easy to replicate (or attempt to anyway). As if I needed any more side projects.

 

[sid]

Hi folks!

Hope its ok to jump in. Im trying to recreate Fatmans Veg and Bloom formulas, or whatever you nice people suggest. I have found the following recipe :

I have the following chemicals available to me :

I input these values in hydrobuddy

And I get vastly different results... Please note that the Mass below is in ounces, and it is a bug that does not change Mass (g). I can understand weights of elements used being different from the originial formula, but the NPK suggested in the original formula is 3.25 : 1 : 3.24, also different. Edit : When I multiply my NPK values by 325, I get close.

What am I missing ?

Thanks for any and all help folks!
Take care!

 

[Skybound]

And I get vastly different results... Please note that the Mass below is in ounces, and it is a bug that does not change Mass (g). I can understand weights of elements used being different from the originial formula, but the NPK suggested in the original formula is 3.25 : 1 : 3.24, also different. Edit : When I multiply my NPK values by 325, I get close.

I don't understand what you're saying here or asking in general. The bottom numbers are expressed in ratio. As to a bug with Hydrobuddy, which version are you running? I have the newest VERSION installed and am able to compute my own regimens in both grams or ounces, though on my install, the (g) doesn't change whether in grams or ounces, but my weights to change depending which Mass I have selected.

I don't want to comment about the legitimacy of Fatman's PPM targets and how well that might work for cannabis other than to say that almost every element is very much outside of my own comfort range for each element based on my studies. Don't get me wrong, there are a few threads on RIU of growers targetting elements in that higher register, but I've never seen anywhere Fe being targeted for 10 ppm. If you are open to suggestions, I suggest emulating Megacrop's 9-7-16 dry blend with Greenway and Botanicare's Calmag supplement. This brand is the new craze and is also what I've been emulating for about the past year. I find it's very close to ideal and only needs a little bit more finessing to make it aces. Though you would likely need to expand your salt collection to get better accuracy.

When targeting a specific regimen, you want to have 2-3 sources for all of the macros and secondaries. For example, I have 3 sources of nitrate, 2 ammoniums, 2 phosphates, 3 potassiums, 1-2 calciums, 2 magnesiums, and because of that, Hydrobuddy has a lot more wiggle room to pinpoint any target I try. Another tip is to invest in chelated metals and make your own micronutrient concentrate, otherwise you'll need a scale that graduates to the thousandth, and have to go through that headache at every res change. Once again, I emulated Megacrop's micro regimen, so I have a half gallon of concentrate that will mix up to 500 reservior gallons. Having the concentrate makes getting those miniscule doses easily through multiplication to make the concentrate and division to mix in the res. 3.8ml of concentrate per gallon to be exact.

Program these labels in as Megacrop, and Greenway Calmag for the other. Then load each up and set the weight of each to 5 grams, then compute that. Copy the elemental output to your notes to reference your targets and make adjustments. For instance, when it goes to bloom, a lot of folks increase the Megacrop only to 6 grams or 6.5 at times.

 

[sid]

@Skybound Thank you!
Yes I am very very open to suggestions and guidance. I admit i know nothing.
Fatmans is what I found and I asked here. Sorry for being so naive, i dont understand nutes nor much of the chemistry behind them yet, and obviously don't know what and how to ask, yet! Help me along ?

So ill spend some more time studying and understanding what you advised. And post back here in the evening. thank you again Sky!

 

[Skybound]

@Skybound Thank you!
Yes I am very very open to suggestions and guidance. I admit i know nothing.
Fatmans is what I found and I asked here. Sorry for being so naive, i dont understand nutes nor much of the chemistry behind them yet, and obviously don't know what and how to ask, yet! Help me along ?

So ill spend some more time studying and understanding what you advised. And post back here in the evening. thank you again Sky!

I don't know this all the way either and without Hydrobuddy, I wouldn't know it at all. Nutrients are calculated first by multiplying against each element's molecular weight which seriously makes my eyes cross when I try to learn it, lol. Molar math is just not comprehendable for my always high ass to grasp. But your want to know has already put you on track to find what you seek. As best as I can tell, Megacrop is the best nutrient brand out there for cannabis, so it makes most sense to copy that regimen IMO. I don't suggest actually buying Megacrop though because I'm a proponent of having the ability to change any one element as need be and when using any brand, you're locked into more or less of the same diet which IMO is very limiting. Plus also it's nice to be able to make custom solutions for garden veggies too.

 

[Skybound]

I left a Bill of Materials (BOM) on the top of page 3. If you live in the USA, everything can be purchased for under $300 and that gets you a lifetime supply of micros and a generous supply of macros. Of my macros, I've only needed to rebuy the frequently used substances like Epsom salt, monopotassium phosphate or calcium nitrate, and that because I buy in small 4lb quantities. Buying salts is just so much of an empowering move

 

[sid]

Im in Asia Sky, that's the main reason I got trying to look into mixing my own nutes so early in my growing experience. We don't get much here. But from what I am seeing, most of the basic elements are available. Some chelated elements im finding hard to come by. But no stress...
Im gonna once again try and get through your brilliant effort here and hopefully do your work some justice in trying to understand it.

Thanks a ton Sky! ill be looking at your bill and replying with what I can source locally, that would be a start. I hope to get to mix some as soon as possible, so I can get another crop going, while I continue to study and understand the science behind it.

 

[Skybound]

Im in Asia Sky, that's the main reason I got trying to look into mixing my own nutes so early in my growing experience. We don't get much here. But from what I am seeing, most of the basic elements are available. Some chelated elements im finding hard to come by. But no stress...
Im gonna once again try and get through your brilliant effort here and hopefully do your work some justice in trying to understand it.

Thanks a ton Sky! ill be looking at your bill and replying with what I can source locally, that would be a start. I hope to get to mix some as soon as possible, so I can get another crop going, while I continue to study and understand the science behind it.

I helped a grower from Hong Kong a year ago, and I presume he had less access to nutrients in general, but we each do the very best we can with what we can get our hands on. Depending on what you can or can't find, maybe look into buy Megacrop itself as it has most everything in the bag, just add water. Jack's Hydroponics 5-12-26 is another decent line. Poor Weaselcracker has limited access to things as well and has to piece different products together to make his ferts as ideal as is possible. Your collection thus far is already pretty impressive and if you can add to it, Hydrobuddy will have a better chance of making the final solution closer to your targets. But realiticly, the 3 most used complexes are calcium nitrate, Epsom salt and MKP. Everything else is pretty much buy once and that's it.

 

[Fritzel]

@Skybound
I really enjoy your posts (I think...)
It is all to difficult for me. But I will read it again, and again, till I finally understand it.

But I do have a question already. Maybe the answer is somewhere in this topic.
On the website of HydroBuddy and the print screens you posted, I see 'ppm' after every element.
But how does that translate to grams?

I probably can buy all the ingredients, but I want to know how much grams of this, how much grams of that.
Like making a cake

 

[Skybound]

@Skybound
I really enjoy your posts (I think...)
It is all to difficult for me. But I will read it again, and again, till I finally understand it.

But I do have a question already. Maybe the answer is somewhere in this topic.
On the website of HydroBuddy and the print screens you posted, I see 'ppm' after every element.
But how does that translate to grams?

I probably can buy all the ingredients, but I want to know how much grams of this, how much grams of that.
Like making a cake

when you load up all of the salts you have into the app, then target each element as you desire (here's my Megacrop Bloom targets

Then click Carry Out Calculation, you then click on the Results tab to see how much of each salt is needed to make the solution you desire. As can be seen here I am only targeting the macros and have all the micros listed at zero, that is because I mix the micros separately, and those are also targeted to a slightly modified Megacrop mix. Below you can see how many grams (Mass (g)) of each salt is needed. To prevent the need of weighing each salt each feeding to make a solution, I keep all of my salts mixed into a concentrate at a ratio of 1 gram per every 10ml of RO, or a 189.3 grams per half gallon. This way if I need let's say 2.255 grams of Calcium Nitrate, I would merely need 22.5ml of that concentrate per gallon which makes quick math while baked out of my mind fairly easy.

To make the micro concentrate, I determine what the results of the Megacrop with Calmag and ProTekt are, then save the ranges of the micros to create my concentrate. I then set the app to mix up 500 gallons of stock solution and cram it all into a half gallon jug. Then it's just as simple as using 3.8ml per every gallon of feed I want to make.

It took me years to wrap my brain around it and to date I still don't know how to do the molar math used to calculate the elemental ppm, so w/o the app, I would still be using GH 3paret, lol. Hope this cleared up a few things. BOM is on the top of page 3.

 

[NorCaliwood]

Drive-by;;;


too many numbers,, I hate math


hope all good for ya my friend...

 

[Skybound]

Drive-by;;;


too many numbers,, I hate math


hope all good for ya my friend...

I'm Okay Wood, just falling back from the journals and assisting when asked.

 

[sid]

Hi Sky!
You have given me a perpetual headache. Thank you and please bear with me.


Im still coming to grips with the science, having to to and fro between absolute basics (now i know my primary secondary and micro elements) and reading over and again what you so kindly share.

A question regarding HudroBuddy, it seems the included substance list changes with version updates. For example, v1.62 has Manganese Sulphate available in the substance, while 1.7 does not, and instead has Manganese chelates (Mn EDTA) available (I hope my terminology is correct). Is there any strong reason for this substitution ?

On reading advise, blindly, I have ordered 2 more chelated elements I could get, Mn and Zn.
Currently I know have with me :

1. Calcium Nitrate
2. Potassium Nitrate
3. MKP
4. Magnesium Sulphate
5. Boric Acid
6. Copper Sulphate
7. Zinc Sulphate
8. Zinc EDTA 12%
9. Manganese Suphate
10. Manganese EDTA 12%
11. Iron EDTA 12%
12. Ammonium Molybdate (Is this actually the same as Sodium Molybdate in HB ?)

My next question is regarding stability of these concentrates, I read that as long as the solutions are not exposed to light, they will sit indefinitely, I also read that certain elements such as, i think i read, Fe EDTA don't play nice over time and 'precipitate'? I imagine that means they no longer remain suspended in the solution ? Should a good shake not solve this ? Your BOM includes Sodium Benzoate which I find very curious.

I am looking for a good generic recipe for grow and flower. HB comes with a Generic Grow and bloom (But i cannot get to meet the targets with my substances), Maximum yield online has a Generic grow recipe that I found that mixes in perfectly, but I don't have a corresponding bloom formula.
Any pointers ?

From you Megacrop advise

Program these labels in as Megacrop, and Greenway Calmag for the other. Then load each up and set the weight of each to 5 grams, then compute that. Copy the elemental output to your notes to reference your targets and make adjustments. For instance, when it goes to bloom, a lot of folks increase the Megacrop only to 6 grams or 6.5 at times.

Please help my dumb brain understand. I can only guess what the bold text means. By weights do you mean, as I use the "copy commercial nutrient formulation" in HB, I select addition by weight and input 5g/Gallon ?
Reference targets being what i want each elements ppm to be during the stage of growth ?

Thanks Sky! ill get there.

 

[Skybound]

Hi Sky!
You have given me a perpetual headache. Thank you and please bear with me.


Im still coming to grips with the science, having to to and fro between absolute basics (now i know my primary secondary and micro elements) and reading over and again what you so kindly share.

Calcium, Magnesium and Sulfur I believe are technically considered micro nutrients, but because they are given at such high doses, growers often refer to them as Secondaries. I myself just consider them as macros for simplicity. It's an arbitrary difference and the naming convention isn't important.

A question regarding HudroBuddy, it seems the included substance list changes with version updates. For example, v1.62 has Manganese Sulphate available in the substance, while 1.7 does not, and instead has Manganese chelates (Mn EDTA) available (I hope my terminology is correct). Is there any strong reason for this substitution ?

Exactly why Daniel opted to no longer include the sulfates, I can only speculate on. Sulfates can be used in hydro, but they must remain in powder form until mixed, because if you try to mix them into concentrates, the heavy metals that are bonded to the sulfate molecule will quickly oxidize and turn the concentrate into rust water. I actually learned this one the hard way. Look what it did to one of my jugs, lol.

On reading advise, blindly, I have ordered 2 more chelated elements I could get, Mn and Zn.
Currently I know have with me :

1. Calcium Nitrate
2. Potassium Nitrate
3. MKP
4. Magnesium Sulphate
5. Boric Acid
6. Copper Sulphate
7. Zinc Sulphate
8. Zinc EDTA 12%
9. Manganese Suphate
10. Manganese EDTA 12%
11. Iron EDTA 12%
12. Ammonium Molybdate (Is this actually the same as Sodium Molybdate in HB ?)

My next question is regarding stability of these concentrates, I read that as long as the solutions are not exposed to light, they will sit indefinitely, I also read that certain elements such as, i think i read, Fe EDTA don't play nice over time and 'precipitate'? I imagine that means they no longer remain suspended in the solution ? Should a good shake not solve this ? Your BOM includes Sodium Benzoate which I find very curious.

Once elements bond with other elements and become colloids, they fall out of the solution as solids and as far as I know requires either a chemical process to break them back apart, or the microbes and bacteria in the root zone can also perfveorm this operation and frequently do in the soil when P and Ca bond. The microbes can break those colloids back apart and exchange those ions for exuded sugars in the natural course of the microbe/root relationship.

Organic acids such as Aminos, or the known chelates we use, DTPA, EDTA, EDDTA etc etc etc will become a food source for algae to colonize inside the micro nutrient concentrate. The Sodium Benzoate (or other food preservative) prevents unwanted process from happening. The micros I use are Iron DTPA, Copper EDTA, Zinc EDTA, Manganese EDTA, Boric Acid and Sodium Molybdate. The exact source of each isn't all the important, what is important is that the contents used will stay in suspension as well as be available to the roots. My studies suggested to me that given our ideal PH of 5.8 for hydro, that Iron DTPA would be a better fit than Iron EDTA, so that's why I opted for the DTPA, but that's not to say that EDTA wouldn't work.

I am looking for a good generic recipe for grow and flower. HB comes with a Generic Grow and bloom (But i cannot get to meet the targets with my substances), Maximum yield online has a Generic grow recipe that I found that mixes in perfectly, but I don't have a corresponding bloom formula.
Any pointers ?

From you Megacrop advise

Megacrop uses the same blend for both veg and bloom. Because we use HydroBuddy and salts, we can tweak those numbers as we see fit. As a practice, I try to emphasize P and N during Veg then switch to high K for bloom, but that is a very loosely defined standard that after 2 years of tweaking, is still a work in progress for me and will definitely require more testing on my part to unearth what is thee single most ideal regimen for all strains of canna. The above pictured targets are my latest attempts and will take a few weeks for me to see the results. It's like a never ending learning curve and each revision is still good in their own right, I still strive to find total perfect, a regimen that makes every branch thick and strong and every bud heavy and resinous. I hope to know what is ideal before I die, but expect it might take the whole rest of my life to iron that one out, lol.

Please help my dumb brain understand. I can only guess what the bold text means. By weights do you mean, as I use the "copy commercial nutrient formulation" in HB, I select addition by weight and input 5g/Gallon ?
Reference targets being what i want each elements ppm to be during the stage of growth ?

You click the Substance Selection tab on the top/right, then a new widow opens and you click the Add Custom button between the fields and input as follows. Pay little attention to my naming conventions. I use AA - or BB - or 00 - or 11 - to keep groups of things bundled together at the front of the list for my convenience.

Thanks Sky! ill get there.

 

[sid]

Ok. Ill be readong this multiple times over and reverting with more confusion...
But for now, Ill try and source as many Chelated minerals as I can.

Thanks sky!