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- #1,101
Or supercrop it to say 420
!!!
That’s a project begging to be done.. I’m gonna put some thought into that
Keffkas Coast Of Maine Line, TLO/LOS Style, Bagseed, Indoor Grow
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!!!
That’s a project begging to be done.. I’m gonna put some thought into that
If the FG larvae sometimes eat roots, why do you think they won't in your mix? I would think with enough other things maybe the pressure on roots would be reduced but I wouldn't think they have a hierarchy of food sources, but rather graze the buffet taking a little from everything they will eat.
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If the FG larvae sometimes eat roots, why do you think they won't in your mix? I would think with enough other things maybe the pressure on roots would be reduced but I wouldn't think they have a hierarchy of food sources, but rather graze the buffet taking a little from everything they will eat.
**On my original post about FG that you’re referring to, I implied that FG would consume roots if it weren’t for the organic matter in my medium. This implication is untrue. FG larvae simply do not eat live established roots. This holds in both synthetic and organic environments.**
Good question.. I’ll explain.. It is only the larvae that feed. They’ll only eat specific things, and live established roots aren’t one of those things. They prefer decaying organic matter and fungi. Some species will feed on soft plant growth such as the roots of seedlings or the base of cuttings but have zero interest in established plants and their root systems.
In a living soil environment with established roots where the medium is a balanced food web full of their favorite organic matter as well as 2 of their major predators, live roots aren’t on the menu. In a synthetic environment with an established root system roots usually aren’t on the menu either, what’s being eaten is the dead root cells that are sloughed off as the new roots grow.
In LOS as roots are sloughed off to make new ones, that material is consumed by the microbes hanging around the rhizosphere before the fg larvae even get a chance to get at it. Both nematodes and myco enjoy hunting down fg larvae as well, and will keep their populations in check.
FG are nothing more than a nuisance to most growers at most times. The only real danger they pose is from specific species towards seedlings and cuttings. FG are an easy target to blame when plants go south from poor horticulture practices. They’re incredibly useful in a food web system though where you’re depending on a continuous process of organic decomposition.
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- #1,104
If the FG larvae sometimes eat roots, why do you think they won't in your mix? I would think with enough other things maybe the pressure on roots would be reduced but I wouldn't think they have a hierarchy of food sources, but rather graze the buffet taking a little from everything they will eat.
I just re read what you were referring to and see the issue. I used poor word choices and implied they would eat roots if it weren’t for the organic matter I have in the pot. I’ll see if I can reword that better
Crap I can’t edit it.. I’ll put a disclaimer on my previous post I just made
Mycorrhizae are a type of fungus, so I would have thought they would be on the menu for the fg larvae.
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Fungus is a kingdom classification, with which many different eukaryotic organisms and microorganisms belong to. While FG prey on some, others, such as myco prey on them. Arbuscular fungus in fact has been found to reduce root dwelling larvae by up to 28%.
People get hung up on myco delivering P or helping roots gain more surface area but they are so much more than that and provide a vast array of benefits to include pest suppression.
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Here’s a study/journal on some of the effects myco has beyond being a principal decomposer
“Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi mediate below-ground plant–herbivore interactions: a phylogenetic study”
Thanks, that's a really interesting study.
I think it's your choice of words that's tripping me up here, specifically that myco "preys upon" fungus gnat larvae.
In the study they hypothesize that the myco increases plant defences, thereby suppressing fg larvae populations. The fact that fungi including myco have chitin in their cell walls, which is known to induce chitinase production in some plants and microorganisms.
They also suggest that the myco themselves are toxic to the larvae, indicating that they believe the larvae are in fact ingesting myco, and they also suggest that the myco may be serving as an alternate food source for the gnats as a mechanism behind greater plant survival, although that doesn't account for the lower population of larvae.
The did document root damage from the larvae in plants that died, meaning that, at least in this case, the larvae do directly feed on roots.
The lower biomass of innoculated plants was a bit of a surprise, but they do mention that the reverse happens in some other species, so we really can't draw any inferences on that.
All in all a great read though.
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I love when you comment, it always makes me have to reassess. I would agree that “prey upon” was a poor choice of words (just not my weekend for words I guess
)So in addition to providing natural barriers and defense, arbuscular myco (and myco in general) also has the ability to produce metabolites that include biocides, antibiotics, and pest-specific chemicals that can attack and destroy harmful organisms. They also can produce metabolites that mimic their own predators offensive and defensive chemical's. They can survive through the digestive tract of their predators as well.
They’ve been found to mimic a specific signal to entrap pests. Essentially baiting the organism to come to them, then attacking either with hyphae physically or through metabolic/chemical means. This is what I was referring to when I said “prey upon”.
I’m not surprised they found root damage in dead plants, FG are attracted to decaying organic matter. If a plant has died then there was quite likely decaying roots for them to attack. As we know, plants don’t just die overnight, especially if there’s a myco association.
Have you read Teaming With Fungi yet? If you’re interested I can send you a copy through email.
Thanks, I haven't read it, but I'll see if I can find a copy here. I'd like to support authors where possible.I love when you comment, it always makes me have to reassess. I would agree that “prey upon” was a poor choice of words (just not my weekend for words I guess
So in addition to providing natural barriers and defense, arbuscular myco (and myco in general) also has the ability to produce metabolites that include biocides, antibiotics, and pest-specific chemicals that can attack and destroy harmful organisms. They also can produce metabolites that mimic their own predators offensive and defensive chemical's. They can survive through the digestive tract of their predators as well.
They’ve been found to mimic a specific signal to entrap pests. Essentially baiting the organism to come to them, then attacking either with hyphae physically or through metabolic/chemical means. This is what I was referring to when I said “prey upon”.
I’m not surprised they found root damage in dead plants, FG are attracted to decaying organic matter. If a plant has died then there was quite likely decaying roots for them to attack. As we know, plants don’t just die overnight, especially if there’s a myco association.
Have you read Teaming With Fungi yet? If you’re interested I can send you a copy through email.
What I'm most interested in is having a list of the references the author used so I can read them myself.
I'm interested in the statement in the study that seems to attribute the deaths of the plants to the larvae.
During my DSD grow earlier this winter I did some reading about them and I found some articles from university extensions that state that they do feed on living roots if their population is too high, specifically in indoor plants.
Would you like me to link them here? Maybe you can see something I missed that makes them inapplicable here.
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Definitely link them please. Everything I’ve ever read says it’s only decaying matter aside from a few specific species that feed on seedlings/cuttings
Here is one from the University of Wisconsin, and here is one from Penn State.
Shed may have other links to more info. He brought up the possibility of them being the culprit when my Do si dos was being difficult, while the Do si dos #33 in the same soil and tent receiving the same feed was doing well.
I did some reading and tried a BTI product to kill off the larvae. It did seem to help a bit.
I haven't looked up any research papers yet, as I've usually found the general interest articles from university extensions to have the info I need.
Edit: The one from UW is co-authored by an entomologist, so if you search him you may find more specific info.
Shed may have other links to more info. He brought up the possibility of them being the culprit when my Do si dos was being difficult, while the Do si dos #33 in the same soil and tent receiving the same feed was doing well.
I did some reading and tried a BTI product to kill off the larvae. It did seem to help a bit.
I haven't looked up any research papers yet, as I've usually found the general interest articles from university extensions to have the info I need.
Edit: The one from UW is co-authored by an entomologist, so if you search him you may find more specific info.
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Do you have a journal for the Do Si Do grow I can look at?
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Flip +26.. I banded a tbsp of dried EWC on top of the mulch for each plant and watered it in. I was going to top dress fish bone meal with a little Stonington plant food and EWC/compost on flip +28, I’ll bump that up to tomorrow, I’ll show why below these pics.
Cannibalism in effect. This is why when I “Defol” I really just cut off the growth tip and leave the leaves. These leaves will serve as a buffer for the rest of the plant. Instead of cutting them off and serving no purpose they help me get ahead of any major issues. This leaf is showing P.. you can tell by the purple mottling on the leaf. P can show in a variety of ways not just this. There’s also hints of K which doesn’t surprise me either, these plants are big for their containers. I’ll be bumping up my top dressing by 2 days and will start brewing a tea tonight.
Cannibalism in effect. This is why when I “Defol” I really just cut off the growth tip and leave the leaves. These leaves will serve as a buffer for the rest of the plant. Instead of cutting them off and serving no purpose they help me get ahead of any major issues. This leaf is showing P.. you can tell by the purple mottling on the leaf. P can show in a variety of ways not just this. There’s also hints of K which doesn’t surprise me either, these plants are big for their containers. I’ll be bumping up my top dressing by 2 days and will start brewing a tea tonight.
It's in my sig. 22-23 winter grow.
I suppose there may have been some less than great horticulture practices going on which you mention. Maybe that's what I saw.
Nevermind after reading on.
Budding up nicely man!
Thanks Azimuth,
read about 30 pages into Danishoes21 last journal… but still not finished. What’s hard is he was midway in a shared grow with his neighbor and things went south so he dug up and moved the plants. Would have been better to follow his supercropping efforts from seedlings on up but I’ll keep digging.
What I did learn is that he does supercrop the same limbs multiple, multiple times. Looked to me as if many arms were SC’d twice between each node. Same goes for the main stem… they were SC’ed multiple times
really nice garden… he broke the shit out of those plants but they flourished with the abuse
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I don’t know why I found this humorous but I did. Probably because I’ve done the same thing myself quite often.
I can’t find a hard study reflecting FG and attacking live roots. I’ve been looking. The closest I get is a claim that it’s happened in a paper, or has been observed but there’s no proof, images, measurements, etc. Just a statement that it can happen. I want to see the quantifiable evidence that this has occurred. In almost every instance I’ve seen of FG supposedly damaging live established roots, there were other issues at play as well so it’s hard to say.
I have a scientific mind, so I am in no way dedicated or attached to any of these ideas, nor any ideas really. Heck, we don’t even know if our understanding of physics is actually legit, so I’m not willing to believe something then ignore proof otherwise simply because it means I was wrong. In fact, I’m constantly trying to prove myself wrong, or poke holes in what I believe is true. I’d really like to prove the concept of time wrong but who has time for that
If it can be proven they feed on established live roots, I’m willing to believe it. However in my experience and all of the reading I’ve done, that’s not the case. Feels almost like a chicken and the egg argument. Did FG break in and cause issues, or were issues happening and FG exploited it.
Regardless of all of that what is most important though, like always, is balance. If you’ve got a balanced soil food web in a balanced environment, FG aren’t going to be able to reach high enough concentrations to inflict damage. They will have their benefits that I’ve explained but They also will be kept in check by the plants defenses, microbes, fungi, nematodes, etc.
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19 hours @ 74F and the tea is ready to go.. I’m gonna band in fish bone meal with a little Stonington plant food under the mulch, water it in, then hit them with the tea.
Savvage61
Well-Known Member
Hey Keffkas
Hope all is well. I was looking over some of your post and now that I realize Coast of main is a soil/nute line and not a place (true story) and if i am not mistaken is a brand of Super soil. For my next grow I am using purple cow Indicanja also a super soil. I plan on also using a SIP
Any way if you are using a super soil or have in the past could I get you opinion? I have read nothing but good things about it. and would love to hear some first hand experiences
Thanks
Savvage61
Hope all is well. I was looking over some of your post and now that I realize Coast of main is a soil/nute line and not a place (true story) and if i am not mistaken is a brand of Super soil. For my next grow I am using purple cow Indicanja also a super soil. I plan on also using a SIP
Any way if you are using a super soil or have in the past could I get you opinion? I have read nothing but good things about it. and would love to hear some first hand experiences
Thanks
Savvage61