Keffkas Coast Of Maine Line, TLO/LOS Style, Bagseed, Indoor Grow

Peat Phreak said:
The proprietary ingredients are plant extracts and an organic magnesium source. The reason companies have proprietary ingredients is to make it more difficult for another company to copy the formula.
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Right, I understand the purpose of proprietary, I just don’t agree with it at all when it comes to growing plants or anything related. It’s nonsense. It’s no different to me than certain companies buying the “rights” to seeds then stamping their mark all over their genetics. Nature was never meant to be proprietary. Without getting too deep and offending quite a few people, this goes against everything I believe.

We can go deep on that convo in PMs where we won’t risk alienating half the group.


Peat Phreak said:
Micro chelated is the same as regular chelated. Nano chelated is the other type. Chelated elements are easier for plants to uptake.
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“easier uptake” is exactly what we’re avoiding. That throws off our balance in the soil food web. It’s all about balance always. The moment that balance is upset everything goes haywire and then we have to decide what the plant needs and when, and now we’re tethered to it the rest of the grow using bottles and rescue methods.
I’ve not heard of nano either, I’ll have to look into that.

Peat Phreak said:
I don't know if the fulvic acid they use to chelate would cause problems for this type of growing. TPS can answer that for sure. There would be a very small amount of fulvic acid in the cal mag. Not enough to cause a problem, IMO. The ph of soil usually doesn't get low enough for fulvic acid to be effective.
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TPS? I’m not clear on what/who that is.
A small amount of acid may or may not cause a problem, but it’s not worth finding it out.. I won’t even use specific brands of Hydrolyzed fish because they’re shelf stabilized with small amounts of phosphoric acid.

Upsetting the balance in a LOS/TLO grow is devastating. You lose weeks if you’re able to get the balance back. If you can’t then you’re stuck using bottled nutrients the rest of the grow, and there will be a noticeable difference in the final quality.

Peat Phreak said:
I'll bet this organic cal mag is fine for any type of soil. Could be wrong cuz I don't do soil. I'm going to try a bottle for use with peat and salts and foliar. I'm sold on the better uptake rate. I like how it doesn't have nitrogen. Just cal mag.
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There’s no doubt it’s perfect for many types of soil. It looks like a decent product that I would use if I wasn’t running a living environment. It’s not the soil we’re concerned with though. The soil is our home for the micro life inside the pot that’s doing all the work. When we upset the balance of the micro life then we’re stuck playing keeper for the entire grow, and the plant is no longer calling the shots which is the exact opposite of what we’re trying to do.

TLO/LOS is all about providing the ideal environment for the soil food web to do its job. We’re feeding the soil itself, not the plant. We want the plant calling all of the shots in harmony with the bacteria and fungi, like it did for millions of years. We do this by providing the organic matter that contains our desired nutrients into the soil. The microbes consume and break down this organic matter, making it available to the plant in the same natural cycle that’s been playing out for millions of years.
Even the smallest of acids/synthetics can make part of that web irrelevant and can have serious knock on effects all the way up to the flowers.

It’s the difference between you deciding what you want to eat and when, versus me shoving a feeding tube down your throat and pumping you full of ultra processed foods on my schedule.

The lack of nitrogen is nice, not many chelated Calmags have low to no nitrogen. Better uptake rate is exactly what you want if you’re calling the shots and feeding the plant. You don’t want to be dumping stuff on the plant just to have it reject it and runoff.

I’ve said this before and it caused a stir but I believe it. In the synthetic/chelated world we are attempting to mimic processes we see in nature. We do a pretty crappy job at it because there’s a whole lot of nuances and processes we just don’t understand fully. Heck we only just recently learned that rhizophagy bacteria are responsible for root hairs. However, if we don’t blow ourselves up first, there will come a day where we understand all of these things and will be able to replicate them exactly. On that day, there will be no difference between organic and synthetics, there just won’t. We will have replicated it perfectly. Until that day many generations from now though, we’re still letting the plants call the shots.
 
Peat Phreak said:
TPS says their organic cal mag can be used with living soil. It can be put in teas. It's compatible with salts or amendments. Doesn't cause salt build up. Completely absorbed.
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It doesn’t buffer either which is nice, but is also something to be aware of. It’s a good product, especially compared to some of the horse glue on the market today
 
@Peat Phreak I enjoy your arguments/debates/points/whatever you wanna call it 😂 it makes me reach further into my bag than normal which makes me better and I appreciate that. No one ever gained anything going through life unchallenged, except for an unearned ego
 
I'm not arguing or trying to be right. I'm just providing info to ponder. I have no idea what TLO/LOS even means. So I can't say if this organic cal mag would be good for this type of growing or not.

TPS is the name of the company. I use their silica TPS Gold. Very good stuff. You probably aren't allowed to use it tho.
 
Peat Phreak said:
I'm not arguing or trying to be right. I'm just providing info to ponder. I have no idea what TLO/LOS even means. So I can't say if this organic cal mag would be good for this type of growing or not.

TPS is the name of the company. I use their silica TPS Gold. Very good stuff. You probably aren't allowed to use it tho.
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That’s my fault.. I made assumptions.. TLO/LOS is True Living Organics (name of a book) LOS is Living Organic Soil. Both systems are essentially the same. You’re providing organic matter and a soil food web in containers. Dr Elaine Ingham coined the term Soil Food Web.

We feed the microbes in the soil which in turn feed the plant. The plant tells the microbes what it wants and when with exudates. I don’t know how much or how little you know about the whole process but it gets fairly complex with a whole host of dependencies so any time we perform a member of the soil food webs job we make them irrelevant and lose balance in our web.

There’s “levels” to organic gardening. You could grow organically using bottled, chelated nutrients and organic acids no problem and still be considered organic. TLO/LOS is like the next step beyond that. You’re no longer feeding the plant nor making any decisions for it beyond the obvious like planting, topping, etc. you just make sure the organic matter the microbes want is in the pot and they’ll handle the rest.
 
I see. Talking about heavy lifting or not. I see folks let the rez go dry and feed from the top. I tend to think this may be the way. When I soak dolomite in water for small dosing over time, it can get stinky, real stinky for a small amount! That in a rez might be negative.
 
Gee64 said:
I wonder if capillary action has enough strength to lift calcium particles all the way to the top of the gradient, or would calcium still be best applied from the top as its heavy and always goes down.
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Or does it even matter? Is it necessary for all of the roots in the pot to have access to every nutrient or is it sufficient for just some of them to have access?

The mycelium is supposed to extend the roots' access to various things they can't reach on their own, so why wouldn't that also apply to Ca?
 
Azimuth said:
Or does it even matter? Is it necessary for all of the roots in the pot to have access to every nutrient or is it sufficient for just some of them to have access?

The mycelium is supposed to extend the roots' access to various things they can't reach on their own, so why wouldn't that also apply to Ca?
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I think for plant intake the calcium will get there for sure but calcium's presence in the soil itself is a major factor in the structure of the soil. Its way more than food, its the most important ingredient.

On a colloidal level calcium attaches to the majority of the colloid only leaving room on each colloid for a set amount of other nutrients.

Its presence changes the colloids electrical field to what is needed to attract the correct ingredients. It is organic chelation at work, using clay and/or humic colloids as serving trays.

PH is what lets the nutes fall off.
Hydrogen atoms can change their electrical charge and at different ph's they swap places on the colloid to release various nutrients.

Bad ph and the nutes stay locked by static cling to the colloids.

If the top of your pot is low on calcium your microbes can't properly fill the colloids and you get nutritional imbalances ( deficiencies) popping up. Thats where mag steps in and slows processes by limiting nitro, waiting and buying time for the situation to correct itself.

In its absence soil compacts and restricts air flow as well as locking nitrogen.

On a microscopic level soil particles sit like plates stacked in a cupboard but adding calcium to relax mags electrical grip allows the electrical field to change and every second plate in the stack flips up on edge forming I-beam like structures greatly improving flow in the soil relieving compaction. (very similar to 2 magnets pushing apart, one flips on its own, then sticking back together, and it works that quickly)
As the soil compacts the nitrogen cycle is slowed in sync with the compaction until it all stops. Its why Cal-Mag is ratioed Cal:magnesium.

On lawns people use gypsum, which is cal and sulphur, ratioed so the sulphur offsets cal's wanting to raise PH, to get rid of compaction.

Got a really mucky spot in your yard or garden? Boot clinging gumbo muck is just hi mag soil, add calcium and it turns back to regular soil.

Calcium is food but it is also the soils strongest electrolyte. Its the plants main electrolyte as well.

Its really heavy so it constantly flows down, and cal and nitro don't cling well to the colloids so they fall off easy and can be washed away by overwatering.

Phosphorous clings really well so its hard to get but almost impossible to flush.

In synthetics its very similar but things like iron colloids are used instead.

Water supplies huge hydrogen content so flushing allows hydrogen to go through and release the salts and they rinse out. Then proper synthetic balance can be restored by feeding again.

Thats why you should always mix calcium into your feed water 1st, it sets the charge for proper chelation.

Set you ph last so stuff won't fall off the plate too soon.

This is where myco and organics jive, myco sways the ph to release what the plant has asked for.

In nature things like earthworms constantly poop out calcium in the top layer of soil. Dandelions, thistle, and any weed with a thick milky tap root is a calcium miner rooting deep to pull calcium back up to the surface.

Weeds are fixers, they like anaerobic soil and by pulling calcium back up it becomes aerobic again. The plates flip on edge and porosity returns.

Got a dandelion problem? You're low on cal, and mag has compacted your lawn.

All that being said, its entirely possible that capillary action CAN carry the cal all the way up, Im curious. If your nitro problem goes away it did. If it doesn't it COULD be a cal imbalance, or you are may just be low on nitro.
 
Gee64 said:
I think for plant intake the calcium will get there for sure but calcium's presence in the soil itself is a major factor in the structure of the soil. Its way more than food, its the most important ingredient.
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Ah, interesting. Then perhaps a periodic spray of my mulch layer with my WCA would constantly replenish the topside levels of calcium and allow them to filter down thru the rest of the mix? And, if so, what's a good periodic schedule? And what are indications of too  much calcium delivered this way?

I saw a podcast a while back with a blueberry farmer extolling the benefits of adding calcium to his soils. I think he said it would be very difficult to add too much to his fields. Maybe that's true at scale, but since my pot surface is only about 9" across I'm sure I could get there.

Gee64 said:
All that being said, its entirely possible that capillary action CAN carry the cal all the way up, Im curious. If your nitro problem goes away it did. If it doesn't it COULD be a cal imbalance, or you are may just be low on nitro.
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Well, I've added the WCA three ways (foliar feed, soil drench, and down the feed tube) so if it works we won't know which was the more effective, but I'd be happy to continue with a periodic soil misting of WCA after determining what might be an optimal schedule and application rate.

And I don't think it's an N deficiency because I'm feeding my combined nutes at a higher rate (2x) than what is recommended for a single input and I have purpling petioles that I think indicate too high a nute level (true?). I'm also feeding at a higher rate (daily vs the weekly recommendation) so there really  should be sufficient/excessive amounts of most everything.

I'll go dig out my Jadam book as I think there is a recommendation for dilution strength when using more than one input at a time. I probably should have done that from the jump, but I wanted to see if the nutes were strong enough to demonstrate overfeeding so I would know I could get there and then planned to dial it back to get to a more acceptable range.
 
Azimuth said:
Ah, interesting. Then perhaps a periodic spray of my mulch layer with my WCA would constantly replenish the topside levels of calcium and allow them to filter down thru the rest of the mix? And, if so, what's a good periodic schedule? And what are indications of too  much calcium delivered this way?

I saw a podcast a while back with a blueberry farmer extolling the benefits of adding calcium to his soils. I think he said it would be very difficult to add too much to his fields. Maybe that's true at scale, but since my pot surface is only about 9" across I'm sure I could get there.


Well, I've added the WCA three ways (foliar feed, soil drench, and down the feed tube) so if it works we won't know which was the more effective, but I'd be happy to continue with a periodic soil misting of WCA after determining what might be an optimal schedule and application rate.
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I love this!

Yeah its basically why i topdress ewc, mainly for a top feeding of cal.

If your Cal water does it you can use it on all your lawns etc safely to get really cushy lawn, just be careful as too much gives the base layer of everything a too high dose of electricity, so slow and steady really does win this race.

If you see signs of nute burn it was too much, if your soil gets dusty and too light on top its too much.
Calcium builds tilth, so if your tilth is off when its fairly dry, your calcium is off. If you stick your finger into the soil deeply and there is hard spots that you know is clumped tight soil, its off.

As cal builds those i-beam spaces the big and small particles fall into place as we see it looking at a glass full of dirt. All willy-nilly.

After the soil structures itself these rocks and pebbles restrict the hallways. Water moves through the smallest passages as capillary action works better there, and air likes to rush through the big passages.

When your soil is just ripping its likely your cal is perfect. All halways are open to traffic.

If capillary action brings it up from your res then you won't really need it elsewhere.

Your Jadam/KNF is cool stuff, I'm going to do a batch outdoors when it warms up but with oyster shells.
 
Gee64 said:
Yeah its basically why i topdress ewc, mainly for a top feeding of cal.
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I can also topdress with castings but assume the liquid WCA would be faster acting. ?

Gee64 said:
Your Jadam/KNF is cool stuff, I'm going to do a batch outdoors when it warms up but with oyster shells.
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Master Cho wrote a book on Jadam. Its written for small farms so the scale is way off for what we need in our smaller gardens, but the ratios are easily adjusted and it's great info.

The heating of the shells is definitely an outdoor activity as you won't want the smell in the house. (Ask me how I know. :laughtwo: ) But easily done on a BBQ or fire pit.
 
Azimuth said:
I can also topdress with castings but assume the liquid WCA would be faster acting.
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I would think so as CalMag fixes $hit quick. I keep a baggie of dry powdered EWC for emergency when I am trying things.

Powdered up it works fairly quick. I use a sprayer to wet it in.

Yours would be much easier and quicker I would think
 
Yeah, I may go with a more periodic (weekly?) topdressing of castings for a steady drip after it fixes itself.

Currently I rotate between top dressing of castings, malted barley, and my bug mix (meals of crustacean, karanja, neem, and barley), so castings, and therefore the calcium slime, only get added every three weeks at present.
 
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