Keffkas Coast Of Maine Line, TLO/LOS Style, Bagseed, Indoor Grow

[Keffka]

Also.. That MOTM title looks good on you @Azimuth

 

[lootznbootz]

Alright so we touched on water and VPD.. Before we get much further I’m gonna breakdown some basic chemistry information so we can discuss nutrients without going over too many peoples heads.. The whole idea of these posts is to make plants a little more accessible so folks can think for themselves beyond following directions or internet tips on growing.

Plants are autotrophic, meaning they can produce their own food using light, water, carbon dioxide, or other chemicals. They use 17 elements to create everything they need for life. These are known as essential elements. There may be more that have an effect, but plants do not require them to survive and reproduce.

Each nutrient is an element, a substance composed of identical atoms. Atoms are the smallest unit of an element. An atom has positively charged protons in its nucleus, which is surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons.

When atoms of the same or different elements share electrons, a chemical bond is formed. Nutrients form three types of bonds: covalent, ionic, and hydrogen bonds. These affect the qualities and availability of the various nutrients. Plants take in the nutrients in order to build the four types of molecules that are necessary for life: carbohydrates, proteins, lipids, and nucleic acids.

Molecules are the smallest unit of a compound. They result from atoms bonding together. Plants are simply the combination of those four groups of molecules. In fact, so is all life. The only difference between us the cultivators and a bacterium is the way carbohydrate, lipid, protein, and nucleic acid molecules are put together.

I know that can be a little intense, but it will make more sense as we discuss in further detail some of these things. The bonds will be explained as we get to them, however I think it’s important for people to at least hear these words so it can make describing the processes a little bit easier.

You know my mom paid a lot of money for me to learn that many years ago and who knew she coulda saved some money and just had me log into a cannabis forum for me to pay attention to it
I love the science class it’s literally unlocking so much more understanding of the plant and what my large actions above the soil do to them on a molecular level!
Freaking mind blowing

 

[Azimuth]

Also.. That MOTM title looks good on you @Azimuth

 

[Keffka]

You know my mom paid a lot of money for me to learn that many years ago and who knew she coulda saved some money and just had me log into a cannabis forum for me to pay attention to it
I love the science class it’s literally unlocking so much more understanding of the plant and what my large actions above the soil do to them on a molecular level!
Freaking mind blowing

My mother tried as well, and all was good until I turned 13 and discovered Cannabis to be fair though, it was at that point I realized I’d been lied to by a lot of people. I smoked a joint and laughed my butt off and had an amazing time.. I didn’t instantly end up on a crack House floor giving my body away for hits of dope so I became very suspicious about all the things the adults had told me up to that point lol.

What I did realize though was, I can learn easily if I’m interested and engaged, and because I insisted on taking the hard road with the working class instead of the university road with the white collar kids, I learned how to speak and explain things in a way the masses can understand. Look at me now mom!

On a more serious note though.. I know exactly what you mean.. It also really helps give you that confidence and ability to look at your plants and understand even the smallest of moves you perform can have seriously huge impacts down below. You’ll hear me harp on confidence almost as much as balance. Confidence separates good from great, and REALLY separates bad from good.

 

[Keffka]

I just learned something so incredible I had to pullover in the middle of my route and share it. Specific bacteria work better on specific plants which determines things like hardiness, disease, efficiency, etc. This goes even further in Cannabis where specific strains have specific bacteria that work better.

These bacteria (I’m gonna break down in way more detail all of this including rhizophagy) are transferred from plant to plant through the seeds. These seeds hold the bacteria until the seed germinates. The moment the seed germinates these bacteria explode out of the seed and into the environment around them to get the ball rolling in terms of growth, health, etc.

This means that when you germinate in a paper towel or sterile environment, those bacteria that the plant has been refining for generations escape out into the paper towel or the sterile environment and are lost.

These bacteria are responsible for so many things such as resilience to PM, the ability to build root hairs, etc. just think about the implication of losing them upon germination.

I will be going back to planting directly into the soil.. I’ll still wet the seeds and roll them in myco but no longer will I germinate them in liquid unless I can pour all of that liquid into the soil and even then only one seed per vessel.

 

[lootznbootz]

My mother tried as well, and all was good until I turned 13 and discovered Cannabis to be fair though, it was at that point I realized I’d been lied to by a lot of people. I smoked a joint and laughed my butt off and had an amazing time.. I didn’t instantly end up on a crack House floor giving my body away for hits of dope so I became very suspicious about all the things the adults had told me up to that point lol.

I can’t put into words how hard I just laughed. This was the FIRST thing I read this morning after my eyes were open for all but a minute!
I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time!
But honestly it’s because it’s so true that sounds like my coming to reality moment as well!

What I did realize though was, I can learn easily if I’m interested and engaged, and because I insisted on taking the hard road with the working class instead of the university road with the white collar kids, I learned how to speak and explain things in a way the masses can understand. Look at me now mom!

Yea I fell for the whole “UnCle SaM WIlL TeaCh YOU thInGs nO UnI eVEr COuld” bit and the rest is history.
Furthering my realization I was lied to even more that I thought.

On a more serious note though.. I know exactly what you mean.. It also really helps give you that confidence and ability to look at your plants and understand even the smallest of moves you perform can have seriously huge impacts down below. You’ll hear me harp on confidence almost as much as balance. Confidence separates good from great, and REALLY separates bad from good.

Yes If I have to second guess myself I step back and go read more. Whatever I do I should be doing it knowing the cause effect and do it as you said with confidence.
That’s how I operate in life in general not just the garden
The more you know the better you can react.

 

[Keffka]

I have partial paralysis and arthritis in my hands. Using a spray bottle has quickly become painful. I am switching over to a pump sprayer. At first I was gonna buy a smaller watering can to water my seedlings but decided I’d use this alongside my beakers instead. I’ll also be able to use this for foliar sprays much more efficiently than my spray bottle. Plus I like to spray my plants down of dust and any other debris that accumulates.. I do this during/after transplants just to make sure there’s no micro sized dust and debris clogging the plant or adhering to it. A pump sprayer will make most of these things much easier. Once I move up in pot sizes to 7, 10, then 15 I’ll buy a larger sprayer, maybe even a battery operated one.

 

[Keffka]

I just learned something so incredible I had to pullover in the middle of my route and share it. Specific bacteria work better on specific plants which determines things like hardiness, disease, efficiency, etc. This goes even further in Cannabis where specific strains have specific bacteria that work better.

These bacteria (I’m gonna break down in way more detail all of this including rhizophagy) are transferred from plant to plant through the seeds. These seeds hold the bacteria until the seed germinates. The moment the seed germinates these bacteria explode out of the seed and into the environment around them to get the ball rolling in terms of growth, health, etc.

This means that when you germinate in a paper towel or sterile environment, those bacteria that the plant has been refining for generations escape out into the paper towel or the sterile environment and are lost.

These bacteria are responsible for so many things such as resilience to PM, the ability to build root hairs, etc. just think about the implication of losing them upon germination.

I will be going back to planting directly into the soil.. I’ll still wet the seeds and roll them in myco but no longer will I germinate them in liquid unless I can pour all of that liquid into the soil and even then only one seed per vessel.

@Grand Daddy Black I forgot to tag you in this earlier.. When you germ in the shot glasses do you use that water in your soil? I think if each seed was in its own glass you could probably just empty it straight into a hole then cover it up and keep all the bacteria

Also @Azimuth this fully vindicates your straight into the medium process. I concede, see the bottom of the post

@Krissi Carbone and @Emilya Green were/are you aware of these strain specific rhizophagy and beneficial bacteria that are seed bound? I’ve never read this before and apparently it’s a fairly recent find.

I heard this on a podcast with Jeff Lowenfels talking about Teaming With Bacteria. I’ve got Teaming with Bacteria coming Thursday.. as soon as I heard this I went to Amazon and ordered it lol

There’s huge Bacteria involvement in trichome development as well (this will be of great interest in relation to the droughting Krissi is working on). He’s also talking about these Bacteria that can fix nitrogen themselves deliver it to the plant and restart the cycle over and over as long as the plant wants it.. it’s these same Bacteria that cause root hairs to grow (the analogy was, our current understanding of how the plant works with microbes is akin to farming, plant puts something in the soil to get something in return, whereas these rhizophagy are akin to the plant ranching since it is using the bacteria and their movements themselves to take nutrients sends them back out into the soil to restart again). The implications of what has been discovered are enormous.. We can see at least a 30% supply of nitrogen to the plant from these bacteria.. It’s breathtaking. It’s so ridiculously amazing I’m having trouble focusing my thoughts into a single line of thinking and felt/feel the need to just blurt it all out

@Gee64 have you heard of any of this? I can’t wait to get the book.. I really enjoy Jeff’s analogies and matter of fact way of delivering the information. His theories are typically on the nose as well.

I’ll be interested to see how clones work in relation to this.. obviously they won’t have that same bacterial load as a seed.. Maybe since they’re already developed, the bacteria is residing within the tissues since it is endophytic microbes and bacteria we’re talking about. Now that I type that I bet that’s exactly it. It’s how it gets to the seeds in the first place.

 

[Azimuth]

That's interesting about the seeds and built in microbes. Something I had never considered.

 

[Keffka]

That's interesting about the seeds and built in microbes. Something I had never considered.

The fact that each specific strain has its own specific bacteria explains so many things, especially when it comes to nutrient requirements, temperaments, environmental preferences, diseases, etc.

I imagine this also implies that each phenotype of each strain will have specific microbes it prefers over others as well.

This ALSO (lol) explains why germination is so much easier for some of us. I’ve always wondered why it seems so many others have so many problems germinating that there are huge articles and tons of tips dedicated to something as simple as putting a seed in the dirt.

Here’s an image of a root tip.. you can see the cloud of bacteria just outside the root tip preparing to enter inside the root cell.

 

[Keffka]

“The rhizophagy cycle works like this: Plants cultivate—essentially farm—microbes around root tips by secreting sugars, proteins and vitamins, according to White. The microbes grow and then enter root cells at the tips, where cells are dividing and lack hardened walls. The microbes lose their cell walls, become trapped in plant cells, and are hit with reactive oxygen (superoxide). The reactive oxygen breaks down some of the microbe cells, effectively extracting nutrients from them. Surviving microbes spur the formation of root hairs on roots. The microbes leave the hairs at the growing hair tip, where the hair cell wall is soft, and microbes reform their cell walls as they reenter soil. The microbes acquire nutrients in the soil and the process is repeated over and over, according to White, who has been studying the sustainable cycle for seven years.”

A quick summary of the rhizophagy cycle I was referencing earlier.

How plants harness microbes to get nutrients

 

[Keffka]

Holy. Cats. Inside a cell, accurately and discernible. What a time to be alive.

 

[Keffka]

So I just listened to Dr Bugbee explain that quantity of light is more important than quality, and that plants can adapt to much much larger jumps in PPFD than we’ve thought (within a day or two). This changes a few things. I can increase my light by 25% at each phase with no concern about too much too fast. This also means that DLI is much more important than PPFD. It also means that when flipping to flower I can easily jump hundreds of PPFD at once to ensure my DLI is hit.

Also learned that “light bleaching” is due to the ratio of red light in your LED. This is fascinating as well. Red light is efficient and plants do not need to make protective chloroplasts to protect against it. This is why the white color appears.. The plants do not need the protection because of the efficiency of the light therefore no chlorophyll. This should technically mean no impact on quality but I doubt it’s as simple as that.

The thing about listening and hearing these things is they don’t stick as well in my mind and I can’t really form an image of them to save for reference. I will either need to go back and listen multiple times or just read more about it. Both of which I’ll most likely do because this is wild information.

 

[Keffka]

I posted this in @StoneOtter thread but feel it has value here as well. Make sure you check out his thread, it’s filled with all kinds of wonderful pictures and explanations. I’ll post a link to it below

Ok my bad.. I got my wires crossed on this one.. What I have is quite a few studies and reports that explain all the known factors affecting seed viability. The major factors affecting viability in storage are related to what I posted. Temperature, RH, light, air.

Those are the major factors that affect the storage viability, however provenance and/or “pre-harvest” also majorly affect seed viability, aka seed vigor. Seeds are embryonic plants, with a nutrition source inside. In flowering plants, the nutritional materials are composed of oils, fats, starches, and many other compounds including sugars.

During pre harvest a variety of factors such as the environment (temperature), stress, nutrition, drought, etc all have an effect on the quality of the seed. “All parts of the seed deteriorate with time, the damage from which can be sustained by the chemical constituents of seeds and the way these compounds interact to form biological structures. Integrity of DNA, proteins, and membranes is especially important for maintaining seed viability”

“Environmental stresses, including deficiency of minerals (including nitrogen, potassium, and calcium), water and temperature extremes during seed development and prior to physiological maturity can also reduce the longevity of seeds.”

So because seeds are made of genetic materials that are heavily influenced by environmental stresses, the plants natural processes, and also include strain specific rhizophagy bacteria refined over the strains life time that are stored in the seed itself, and upon germination escape into the medium around them, it gives us a small window to theorize. (This strain specific rhizophagy, and the natural nutritional processes I believe is going to be where the influences are happening)

In the 70s and 80s “wild” cannabis seeds it was written, were found to last far, far longer than domesticated plants. There’s records that show these wild canna seeds lasting as long as 1300 years in some instances.

Modern breeders see nothing even close to that. What they have seen though is that plants they have grown synthetically, and those that have been forced to seed (feminized), quickly break down, become unstable and lose viability.. Within 2 years in some instances they notice a marked loss in quality. In a lot of instances, certain strains can no longer be grown outdoors without “herming”.

Whereas organic seed breeders are seeing viability for as long as 10 years without intentional proper storage in some instances, normally more around 5 without protection.

Due to 70+ years of prohibition and at least 50+ years of research prohibition, a lot of what we have in terms of data comes from breeders. This is quickly changing due to a variety of federal initiatives and cannabis being legal in multiple states, but it still leaves us with a dearth of hard scientific data.

We have a lot of knowledge (which is quickly exploding due to the threat of extinction to at least 8% of our current plant life) on the influences on seed viability and vigor. However, seeds can vary wildly from phenotype to phenotype never mind cultivar to cultivar. I’ve posted a bit of it up top and will link the resources for others to see.

So with all of this, plus what we now know of strain specific bacteria that is seed bound upon reproduction, it is believed that the current methods of synthetic growing weaken the plants natural systems. A lot of the innate processes the plant performs are being replaced by growers using sterile mediums and synthetically chelated nutrients. These processes need to be developed within the plant and if we’re performing them for the plant the plant has no reason to perform them itself. Thus leading to a weakening in the plants ability to effectively reproduce.

Not only that, these bacteria that are bound within the seed have been refined over generations. When growers germinate into a paper towel or sterile media, that evolved bacteria is lost forever. These bacteria carry everything from resistance to PM, to the ability to generate root hairs. Losing them upon germination has massive implications for the stability of the plant, and it loses years of evolution. This is a relatively recent finding (first observed in 2018). I’ve been digging into it and am quite gobsmacked at what they’re observing.

With all of that being said, we’re left with what breeders have told us, what science is seeing, what growers have seen when using synthetic versus organic methods, and a few major inferences and implications. The breeders obviously have reasons to be less than honest, however if you take the average of each of their claims you’re left with similar numbers to what I posted. At the end of the day we’re left to rely upon the integrity of our fellow growers for a lot of this. I’ve sourced my time frames only from reputable breeders and their observations and statements.

Seeds seem so innocuous but are so wildly interesting I’m excited to see where we go from here. With funding amping up, and money to be found, you can bet us Canna growers will be getting a lot more data in the coming years. With advances in microscopy that allow us to see at the atomic level we hopefully will start unleashing some truly strong evidence. There’s still plenty of room for folks to get in and make their mark.

In the future I’ll make sure I add a disclaimer when referring to longevity

Here’s the links to the different references:

Genetic Aspects and Molecular Causes of Seed Longevity in Plants—A Review

Seed longevity is the most important trait related to the management of gene banks because it governs the regeneration cycle of seeds. Thus, seed longevity is a quantitative trait. Prior to the discovery of molecular markers, classical genetic studies ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pre- and Post-harvest Influences on Seed Dormancy Status of an Australian Goodeniaceae species, Goodenia fascicularis

The period during which seeds develop on the parent plant has been found to affect many seed characteristics, including dormancy, through interactions with the environment. Goodenia fascicularis (Goodeniaceae) seeds were used to investigate whether seeds ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I’m Glad You Asked: The Seed – UC Botanical Garden

botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu

Brand Spankin New ViparSpectra KS5000 Grows Herbies Seeds Collection In LOS

#ViparSpectra KS5000 and Otter for the win! They look to be in their element :green_heart:

www.420magazine.com

 

[Keffka]

Lol whoops.. apparently my heater tripped at 11 am which is super suspect.

RH rose so high it almost started raining

 

[Keffka]

Yea I fell for the whole “UnCle SaM WIlL TeaCh YOU thInGs nO UnI eVEr COuld” bit and the rest is history.
Furthering my realization I was lied to even more that I thought.

I missed this the first time around and also forgot what you said in PM PTSD and TBI have had their dirty little way with my short term memory.. Man oh man if that isn’t true. I saw a meme one time that explained it well, I’ll paraphrase. Essentially it was “why are veterans so distrusting of the government they served? Because we’ve seen some shit”. We’ve seen how it operates and makes decisions. We’ve seen how corrupt and unchecked the power structures can be, and that’s just in their one branch of service.

This automatically makes me believe the civilian side is a hundred times more corrupt since the barrier to entry and success is way lower for civilians than the military ironically. Some of these elected officials wouldn’t have made it through MEPS let alone basic, AIT, line units, etc. yet here they are making decisions that effect millions of lives.

The majority of people I served with, we’ve all taken similar paths. We got out, and we went under the radar completely. Most of my battles live either off grid, or in unincorporated areas, the rest of us just keep a low silhouette while caring for our families or ourselves.

 

[Bode]

Highya Kefka,

Similar thinking patterns. Surprising to me.

I will either need to go back and listen multiple times or just read more about it.

I'm like that, as well. I found a notebook I can write stuff down in, and have a record of it. Works for me.

We got out, and we went under the radar completely.

Similar, here. And have grown more so, since the Democrats wage war against Republicans, costing taxpayers all that money, and not getting anything meaningful done. Look at the way they're (states and federal) rolling out cannabis legislation? Has to be a huge money game! Well, there it is! Time for be to go back lurking, lol. Happy Smokin'

 

[Keffka]

Highya Kefka,

Similar thinking patterns. Surprising to me.


I'm like that, as well. I found a notebook I can write stuff down in, and have a record of it. Works for me.

Similar, here. And have grown more so, since the Democrats wage war against Republicans, costing taxpayers all that money, and not getting anything meaningful done. Look at the way they're (states and federal) rolling out cannabis legislation? Has to be a huge money game! Well, there it is! Time for be to go back lurking, lol. Happy Smokin'

It’s all a huge money game, including the parties themselves. I’ve said it for a long time, when choosing republican or democrat you’re simply choosing which corporations will dictate policy and allocation of taxes. There’s no real difference which is why they both resort to ideological battles, it’s the only way to truly separate what each “stands” for. I have no interest in accepting others ideologies nor do I have any interest forcing mine on them. What I do is mine and my families business only, and what others do is their own business period.

Politicians should be required to wear the logos of their corporate sponsors on their jackets for all to see at all times.

Both parties have repeatedly been against the average Americans and continue to alienate the middle, yknow, the majority of us. At the rate both parties are going a center party will become viable soon enough. You can only go so far left or so far right before you end up in the same place.

 

[Keffka]

Oh man! I went to grab some soil to make up the next batch of pots and I saw this! That EWC I tossed in really kicked up fungal activity! This is going to be great soil to transplant into

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Also learned that “light bleaching” is due to the ratio of red light in your LED. This is fascinating as well. Red light is efficient and plants do not need to make protective chloroplasts to protect against it. This is why the white color appears.. The plants do not need the protection because of the efficiency of the light therefore no chlorophyll. This should technically mean no impact on quality but I doubt it’s as simple as that.

Aren't chloroplasts the structures which perform photosynthesis?
I'll go back and do some reading, as I can't remember the details, but I thought chlorophyll was essential to the process.