Keffkas Coast Of Maine Line, TLO/LOS Style, Bagseed, Indoor Grow

[Azimuth]

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED AZ?! Does this not please you?! But no for real lol, even The Rev himself says in this 2nd version of the book, he uses self watering pots these days. He likes to use living water in them as well which I’m already prepped to do, except I still need a freshwater fish tank which I have, I just killed the last batch of fish thinking the environment had already stabilized. (It didn’t lol)

You know I am.

The Rev uses the pots @Krissi Carbone does in her grows, both with spectacular results, so maybe there really is something to them.

I have an aquaponics setup and I remember getting the environment established. That was my first introduction, I think, to the world of microbes and the different types needed in the fish tank world.

 

[Azimuth]

I have tried using various different spikes, although not straight EWC, and the Rev's work the best. When you disect the final rootball you can see how the roots reacted to it. So I just stay with his recipe. Seeds take longer to go from start to finish than clones do so I give them the big pots. Having a worm farm allows me the luxury of having too much soil so why not, its better being used than just sitting there. Clones get 6gal cubed smart pots that drop right into milk crates, and they work really well for the shorter clone lifespan. The extra soil space in both 6 and 10gal pots allows the myco to set up in all that room before I up the microbes. I usually grow 4 pots, and 40 gallons of wet soil holds my humidity in a 5x5 tent very stable, which makes the VPD alot easier to maintain. I'm messing with a hybrid sips setup right now that shows promise, from seed to harvest I hope, which would make my grow almost labour free once the 10gals are going. They ARE pretty heavy when fully sipped with H20! And yes, big pots give big rootballs which makes for the ability to run safely at a high VPD when moving the light closer. Nothing worse than getting nice and close to the light only to find out your rootball cant keep up to your photosynthetic rate and a perfectly good plant in a healthy pot starts to exhibit signs of starvation as it is forced to grow faster than the roots/myco can handle. Small pots are definitely where you learn though, If you make a mistake or miss a timing point you know really quickly. Here is some really solid small pot advice.... Dont defoliate at all (but do de-larf) unless its a leaf that is growing inwards to the center of the pot, blocking other bud sights from the light, and even then only defoliate it if it cant be tucked out of the way. I even supercrop leaf stems to "bend" them out of the way. The reason is that all your fan leaves are batteries full of water and nutes, so if you screw up a small pot grow, which is really easy to do, you have as many leaves left as possible to life-raft you through mistakes. Quite often in the beginnings of a journey into small pot grows you will end up losing a lot of leaves over the plants life. De-larf as early as possible, as growing larf that will get stripped later is an unnescessary burden on the contents of your small pot. I kinda (well totally) loved your bagseed plant, and if I recall you stated the seeds were from you MIL's grow that selfied. If thats true, all selfy seeds are feminized, as they were created by male parts of a plant that were actually female dna so you get a seed that is XX, not XY as the female plant simply has no Y chromosomes to contribute to the seed, so I would go straight ahead on the assumption that your plants are females. If you do get a male then your MIL's neighbour is making pollen.

Great post as always @Gee64 .

But would it kill ya to hit the 'return key' every once in a while? Those long paragraphs can be hard to get through without a second cup of coffee (and I don't even drink coffee )

I liked your thoughts on small pot grows. I've taken to leaving as many leaves on as possible in mine, especially while I try to dial in my setup. I like the fact that there are nutrient reserves stashed away in the lower leaves for when the plant needs them, and so far they all have needed them.

Hopefully I'm getting closer to solving that riddle as I have upped my castings game and am using some of my Jadam nutes early in the grow this time around. These SIPs make the plants grow so fast that my prior methods just can't keep up.

 

[Gee64]

I
will
try
,
but
no
guarantees
.

 

[Azimuth]

I
will
try
,
but
no
guarantees
.

Well played, Gee. Well played.

 

[Keffka]

I will add a quick addendum about the SIPs.. As we’ve watched play out, there’s a clear transition time into the SIPs. This means almost 4 weeks of my grow will essentially be “wasted” time as the plants roots transition from chasing thick bois to fine feeders everywhere. 2 weeks I’ve already spent vegging and 2 weeks for the transition, 4 weeks, oof.

Moving forward from here, it would be in my best interest to go straight from a 4 inch rooting pot at seed, right into the SIP. Otherwise I’m just wasting time. However, this comes with a risk if I’m not using clones or feminized seeds. I don’t like feminized seeds.. The process to make them creates instability in the genetics. Im not setup to run clones, yet. The SIPs will most likely force me to start cloning so I can capitalize on its way of growth

I have tried using various different spikes, although not straight EWC, and the Rev's work the best.

I’m gonna cut off the quote there so it’s not a wall in a wall but, Yeah I thought I remembered that about your setup. Also in regard to your walls of text lol.. The way I’ve framed it in my mind is that knowledge easily earned isnt as valuable, pulling the gems out of your messages is the journey to the reward

Rarely do the sages just give you the answer.. They make you work for it or figure it out with light guidance

As far as the leaves go, yes! I’ve really been going back and forth in my head about topping and defol.. it doesn’t align with the style.. I’m handing control over to the plant then cutting its head off? I let it choose its nutes then steal its batteries?

This will take some soul searching as I decide which path to take, or whether I should just blaze my own trail. I’ve come to the realization as well that when the plant uses its leaves resources and is done with them I should just drop them straight onto the surface and let the micro life have its way with the leftovers, keeping every ounce of work in the container and going. If nothing else it’s free organic matter.

The small pots the first time were chosen out of ignorance, this time it’s intentional. I won’t learn how to prep, rescue, and diagnose as effectively in the larger ones as we’ve discussed. Once I’m confident in my paramedic abilities and my ability to see inside the plant I’ll move to larger containers. I enjoy a challenge that stimulates my mind.

Quick tip for newer growers.. Do not remove damaged leaves from your plant if possible. Those damaged leaves are the first ones the plant goes for when it’s time to cannibalize. They’re already damaged but can still hold all the resources and photosynthesize, may as well let them serve a purpose. These leaves also will often show you problems you’ve got coming up before you see it in the rest of the plant.

You know I am.

The Rev uses the pots @Krissi Carbone does in her grows, both with spectacular results, so maybe there really is something to them.

I have an aquaponics setup and I remember getting the environment established. That was my first introduction, I think, to the world of microbes and the different types needed in the fish tank world.

I learned about nitrogen and ammonia cycles it was rough.. Ive long struggled to bend water to my will.. I fought my pool one year tooth and nail to bring its ph and alkalinity in line. Took me almost a whole month lol. The RO filter took me hours to install because of course I wasn’t willing to go in until I read up on plumbing then realized my pipes were 50 years old so most of what I learned doesn’t exist in my house .

Then wouldn’t you know it some how I messed up quick connectors. I had water leaks in spots on the filter that they didn’t even cover in the manual because they must’ve assumed no one would’ve messed it up without knowing me .

 

[iamhim]

Wow! The more I read about SIP’s the more interested I am honestly the last few weeks really were the first I’d ever heard about them. If anybody could link me to some great resources regarding SIP I’d appreciate it so much. I have a bunch of babysitter clones in my lil 2x2 right now still rooting. They’re in rock wool cubes though

 

[Keffka]

Wow! The more I read about SIP’s the more interested I am honestly the last few weeks really were the first I’d ever heard about them. If anybody could link me to some great resources regarding SIP I’d appreciate it so much. I have a bunch of babysitter clones in my lil 2x2 right now still rooting. They’re in rock wool cubes though

Here you go:

SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

Welcome to SIP Club! There are an increasing number of us growing in SIPs (Sub Irrigated Planters) so I thought I'd start a community thread where we can all post pictures, links to our various SIP threads and have general discussions on theory and application of these incredible pots. I'll...

www.420magazine.com

The thread is massive and quick moving at times but there’s an incredible amount of data and knowledge in it. Enjoy!

 

[Keffka]

Alright so I prepped out my first Veg container.. I will be making a few adjustments to the next containers as I’m not completely happy with the result but I’m interested to see the differences.

Here’s the floor of my 1 gallon.. I’ve wet it so the dry nutrients I lay down adhere better

Container Floor

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

Floor wet before nutrient application for adhesion

I mixed up these nutrients for my bottom layer.. I’ll be using 2 of the 3 for my top layer once I’ve transplanted into it

Dry nutrients

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

Nutrients used for bottom layer

Here they are mixed together.. the measurements I’ve used are in the description

Container floor mix

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

1/2 tsp Blood Meal, 1/2 tsp Stonington Plant food, 1/2 tbsp 4-4-4

Here they are on the floor of the container first before everything

Container Floor layer

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

1/2 tsp Blood Meal, 1/2 tsp Stonington Plant food, 1/2 tbsp 4-4-4 On wetted container floor

Here is the next layer.. aerated lobster compost.. the measurements are in the description.. on my next container I think I’m gonna bring it down either a half cup or whole cup haven’t decided yet

Aerated lobster compost

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

1.5 Cups Lobster compost mixed with .5 cup perlite

Here’s the lobster compost laid into the container.. you can see from the perlite I have sprayed this down with pure water using a spray bottle

Veg container

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

Aerated lobster compost layer

I then filled the container the rest of the way with my base mix as seen here

Prepped Veg Container

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

1 gallon container prepped with
1/2 tsp blood meal, 1/2 tsp Stonington plant food, 1/2 tbsp...

I went too high on the sides.. I have about an inch of space to the top of the container, I’d prefer 2 inches for my mulch. I’m gonna run with this though and see what kind of differences I see.

Prepped Veg container

• Keffka
• Jan 1, 2023

1 gallon container prepped with
1/2 tsp blood meal, 1/2 tsp Stonington plant food, 1/2 tbsp...

I sprayed everything down again once it was all formed. I took the container and placed it on the floor in my grow room.. I want the container to warm up so the microbeasties can start getting busy and adapted to my environment.. This is so when I drop the transplant in it’s already rocking and rolling. This will sit for about 2-3 days. An additional layer similar to the floor of my container will be put on top along with some extra aerated EWC and my mulch when I drop in. I will then water everything in with about a half quart of water.

That’s all I have for tonight.. I’ll share the next container I setup and let everyone know the changes I decided on.

I just realized that I said I was using “Stonington plant food” like everyone knew what it was made of lol.. In the beginning of the journal there’s pictures of the ingredients in all of my products I use but I will reiterate it here.

The Stonington plant food is 5-2-4 and consists of fish meal, EWC, alfalfa meal, feather meal, crab and lobster meal, kelp meal, kelp extract, epsom salt, and potassium sulfate.

If you’re keeping track that’s a lot of meals lol.. Growing in this style you’re gonna find yourself using lots of meals.. Kelp meal is amazing for the huge amount of micro and trace nutrients (70+) it has in it. Feather meal is a good slow burn nitrogen source. Alfalfa meal has a special growth hormone in it that really boosts your plants vigor. Fish meal is a gold standard for cannabis growth, and lots of other garden plants.

Crab and lobster meal both provide chitin (also why I lean toward lobster compost). Chitin is super underrated. It is a great resource for your plants and will help build resiliency and immunity in them, making them stronger against diseases, pathogens, and increasing their drought resistance as well!

Using chitin puts plants “on guard” and alerts them to produce defensive compounds. Since the plant already produces these defense compounds, its systemic immunity is higher, and if an attack happens, the plant can leap into action and protect itself much faster. Chitin shows a simultaneous ability to promote beneficial microflora propagation while interfering with or stopping undesirable ones’ proliferation.

Even. Better. News. Chitin shows incredible promise at increasing active compounds such as flavonoids, terpenes, and overall resin production. There really isn’t a reason for me not to use it.

What I find most intriguing about this growth style is it hews close to how Native Americans cultivated the land before we got here.. Without any of the technology we have today, they already knew these things. It’s something else

 

[Gee64]

Well played, Gee. Well played.

LOL Thanks for making me giggle Azi

 

[Azimuth]

As far as the leaves go, yes! I’ve really been going back and forth in my head about topping and defol.. it doesn’t align with the style.. I’m handing control over to the plant then cutting its head off? I let it choose its nutes then steal its batteries?

Think of it like raising kids or a dog. Sure you could just let them run amok and do their thing, but both do better in life with some guidance. Same with the plants. They'll put out more for you if you show them some attention and what you want.

The thread is massive and quick moving at times but there’s an incredible amount of data and knowledge in it. Enjoy!

Right, and lots of great examples and how-to's. Open invitation to come check us out.

Crab and lobster meal both provide chitin (also why I lean toward lobster compost). Chitin is super underrated. It is a great resource for your plants and will help build resiliency and immunity in them, making them stronger against diseases, pathogens, and increasing their drought resistance as well!

Using chitin puts plants “on guard” and alerts them to produce defensive compounds. Since the plant already produces these defense compounds, its systemic immunity is higher, and if an attack happens, the plant can leap into action and protect itself much faster. Chitin shows a simultaneous ability to promote beneficial microflora propagation while interfering with or stopping undesirable ones’ proliferation.

Even. Better. News. Chitin shows incredible promise at increasing active compounds such as flavonoids, terpenes, and overall resin production. There really isn’t a reason for me not to use it.

Awesome. Now do malted barley...

 

[Keffka]

So I’ve been real concerned about how I’m gonna make sure my calcium and magnesium levels keep up during the grow. Cannabis needs both of these nutrients both overall in the mix and as a slow addition throughout the grow.. Since I didn’t build this soil myself I’m not willing to add just magnesium to my water.

With that being said, there are many options for Calmag if you’re willing to use synthetic chelates like EDTA, or organic acids like Humic and fulvic. Synthetic chelates will crush the micro life in my grow and send everyone off balance, and that’s just the start.

Organic acids will make nutrients available to the plant at absurdly high levels that aren’t natural and will again throw the balance off. Using these organic acids will force me to have to use them the rest of the grow and that’s the opposite of what we’re doing here.

You’ll hear me talk a lot about balance. Balance is key in everything. From our diets, to our health, to our plants, the answer is balance.

I had a choice between the bush doctor calmag and general organics calmag+ the only difference was the GO calmag+ was magnesium nitrate instead of sulfate. The bush doctor also has soy protein in it which cannabis loves.

The soy protein provides lots of carbon which we can always use since it’s one of the main elements cannabis uses for synthesis. With this in mind I went with the bush doctor. I will add this to my RO water most likely every watering. Just enough to bring my PPM up to 30-50. If she gets hungrier we’ll use a bit more.

I was also looking at my Hydrolyzed fish fert and noticed it had phosphoric acid. This is another nope. The phosphoric acid will throw our microlife off balance, especially our bacteria, and we don’t want that. So I saw this stuff

This is absolutely perfect for what we’re trying to accomplish. The Hydrolyzed fish will feed our myco wonderfully while the seaweed extract is keeping our bacteria happy. The P number is below 5 which is what we want for establishing and keeping myco happy. I will be using a small amount of this for the first weeks after transplanting. Depending on how things look from there I’ll decide how long to keep including it.

I’m like a kid in a candy store whenever it comes to the grow store. I can’t help but to pick something other than what I came for up

 

[iamhim]

I think your attention to detail regarding organic feed and focus on the balance is very interesting. I’m not sure which microbes you’re working with in the root zone as I personally do not use/have never used any organic/microbe beneficials or nutrients even I would love to give it a try I just have such a limited range of movement and the synthetic fertz and ph’ing and what not gives me greater accessibility. I would love to know how your terpene profiles turn out ugh I bet they’re amazing! Twice today I have learned about some neat things from you, Keffka! Thank you!

 

[Azimuth]

This is absolutely perfect for what we’re trying to accomplish. The Hydrolyzed fish will feed our myco wonderfully while the seaweed extract is keeping our bacteria happy. The P number is below 5 which is what we want for establishing and keeping myco happy. I will be using a small amount of this for the first weeks after transplanting. Depending on how things look from there I’ll decide how long to keep including it.

You're not concerned with the "not to be used with organic crop production" statement on the bag?

 

[iamhim]

You're not concerned with the "not to be used with organic crop production" statement on the bag?

That’s a really good catch. I’m curious though, is it for legal reasons because it is a derivative product? I would like to see a full ingredients list, because when I have looked into “organic” feeding regiments before I’ve seen what appear to be quasi-organic materials.

Or I suppose, if the idea is to feed the soil rather than the plants.. idk

Maybe I’m not the best person to postulate bc it clearly says “not for organic crops.”

 

[Keffka]

Awesome. Now do malted barley...

We can definitely cover malted barley.. yet another super awesome organic input.. I wanna add a disclaimer really quickly.. When it comes to a lot of this stuff, people have been following Coots and using his knowledge and recipes.

The malted barley really sticks out to me as an example since there’s either a video or podcast of his where he touches on it and his ability to cut 15% off his flower time. People need to understand, Coots has been growing cuttings from a mother for something like 30 years. He knows his plant and grow inside and out in a way you only can when having grown the same exact plant for 30 years.

He also associates with some people who are running large ops and have also way dialed in genetics.

I say that to say this.. Following Coots recipes and advice to the letter will often lead to disaster or issues. They quickly become discouraged or believe they’ve done something wrong. I’ve read multiple instances of people following his malted barley advice and frying their plants.

This is why having an understanding of these things and the science behind them is important and you’re not just following recipes and ideas blindly. He has outstanding knowledge and delivers things in a way that is easy to understand, however it’s very easy to overdo it and feel like you’ve failed. That’s not what we want to have happen.

I think your attention to detail regarding organic feed and focus on the balance is very interesting. I’m not sure which microbes you’re working with in the root zone as I personally do not use/have never used any organic/microbe beneficials or nutrients even I would love to give it a try I just have such a limited range of movement and the synthetic fertz and ph’ing and what not gives me greater accessibility. I would love to know how your terpene profiles turn out ugh I bet they’re amazing! Twice today I have learned about some neat things from you, Keffka! Thank you!

Thanks @iamhim this journal has already been a resounding success since multiple people have learned something. We’re just getting started too! I will spend some time thinking about ways for you to access this style that work in your situation.

One of the people I read, The Rev, is somewhat disabled. He prefers to keep his plants in 2-3 gallon pots to make it easier for his physical limitations. He’s able to grow beyond top shelf quality plants with quite high yields (2-3 ozs per gallon on average, probably more these days, it’s been a while since his last book) of pure organic cannabis, often using nothing more than pure water (RO, Distilled, Rain water are consisted pure water sources)

As far as microbes go, there’s only a handful I intentionally add. I get the beneficial bacteria from my Great White Myco, and the bacteria in my All purpose fertilizer. I also have the myco obviously. Beyond that, I then use soil food web life such as nematodes, protozoa, etc. that make their way in via compost and earthworm castings.

If I had a worm bin I could get away with just feeding everything into the worm bin except the myco, and would have everything I needed without needing to buy products. This is why I’m working on establishing my own worm bin. Eventually I will only need to use some used soil and the EWC from my worm bin to grow start to finish, with just a few light additions here and there depending on my pot size.

Here’s an image of the microbes I add by way of products:

 

[Keffka]

You're not concerned with the "not to be used with organic crop production" statement on the bag?

So when it comes to statements like this, a lot of it is bureaucratic stuff, and a lot of it is technicality stuff. Similar to how OMRI labels don’t necessarily mean it’s okay to use for TLO/LOS.. There’s tons of OMRI products that would destroy my micro life and throw the whole grow off balance due to the organic acids contained in them, but it would still be considered “organic” by the legal definition.

If I were to use specific “organic” OMRI certified products I would destroy the balance and be forced to use that product for the rest of the grow since I’ve unbalanced the soil food web. There’s a clear quality difference when using nutrients to feed the plant versus feeding the soil. I have no interest in feeding the plant.

Often times when you see that statement on a bottle it just means it hasn’t been “certified” OMRI so you legally cannot use it to grow “organic” crops. We’re not concerned with OMRI labels as stated earlier. We’re only concerned with the actual ingredients inside. In this case the ingredients inside are just Hydrolyzed fish and Seaweed extract, that’s it. I made sure to look up the metal content just to ensure there wasn’t some slickness happening.

I imagine if I dig deeper into this company, they’ve created this product specifically for cannabis or home growth. Getting OMRI certification requires money and resources that are a waste in instances like this, and often times impossible depending on sources (derivatives, etc.) The people who are interested in using this product don’t need to see OMRI on the label to know it’s what they need.

 

[Keffka]

I dug into the company and as I suspected, it’s not worth the hassle for them. Multiple products are derivatives, and multiple products have over 3% nitrogen requiring factory inspections. They started out as a small local company and have started distributing nationally. Their focus is on cannabis growth so OMRI is pretty much irrelevant, for now anyway until the feds decide they want a piece.

Like I said.. It’s not about the labels, it’s about the ingredients. As long as you can get to a SDS and confirm what they’re claiming (which if you’re in America the probability of this is high) you’ll be good. Again I will reiterate this is why it’s important for us to know why we’re using the things we’re using and what we’re using them for. If I was stuck only using OMRI certified products I’d be screwed or could never fully accomplish what I wanted to.

 

[Azimuth]

The malted barley really sticks out to me as an example since there’s either a video or podcast of his where he touches on it and his ability to cut 15% off his flower time.

The Coot angle is why i asked. Here's a transcript of a podcast he did. Site rules prohibit a link to the audio recording but it's easy enough to find.

I've gone to topdressing with the malted barley at 1 tsp per gallon of pot size every three weeks in rotation with my bug mix and my worm castings. I don't have his castings but I'm getting closer.

I say that to say this.. Following Coots recipes and advice to the letter will often lead to disaster or issues. They quickly become discouraged or believe they’ve done something wrong. I’ve read multiple instances of people following his malted barley advice and frying their plants.

He's often said most people who claim to be using his recipe aren't doing anything of the sort since they don't have his castings.

Often times when you see that statement on a bottle it just means it hasn’t been “certified” OMRI so you legally cannot use it to grow “organic” crops. We’re not concerned with OMRI labels as stated earlier.

What caught me was the wording was not that it wasn't approved but rather 'not to be used.' To me, the first can easily be interpreted as they didn't go through the paperwork crap. 'Not to be used' stands out to me as a very proactive statement.

 

[Keffka]

I mislabeled my seedlings last night as Day 8-12.. It should’ve been Day 8-11.. Today the seedlings are Day 9-12 and looking great

Seedlings Day 9-12

• Keffka
• Jan 2, 2023

Seedlings Day 9-12

• Keffka
• Jan 2, 2023

Seedlings Day 9-12

• Keffka
• Jan 2, 2023

Everyone is starting to look a little thirsty.. Mulch is incredible for how long it can keep my moisture levels good.. I sprayed everyone down with a spray bottle from up top.. I used about 4 ozs of water spread over all the plants. This will prepare them to take a full watering tomorrow or the following morning. This will be the final watering before transplanting to the 1 gallon. I will wet them enough to keep the root balls intact. They will get another watering again when transplanted. That will be a total of 2 full waterings in seedling.

 

[Keffka]

The Coot angle is why i asked. Here's a transcript of a podcast he did. Site rules prohibit a link to the audio recording but it's easy enough to find.

I've gone to topdressing with the malted barley at 1 tsp per gallon of pot size every three weeks in rotation with my bug mix and my worm castings. I don't have his castings but I'm getting closer.


He's often said most people who claim to be using his recipe aren't doing anything of the sort since they don't have his castings.

Exactly! There’s so many aspects of his grow that are so advanced and difficult to replicate. It’s why I don’t try to emulate @Gee64 his setup is far more advanced and dialed in. The knowledge is invaluable if you know what to do with it. So many think EWC is something you can just spend top dollar on and it will be equivalent or good enough and this is not even close to true.

What caught me was the wording was not that it wasn't approved but rather 'not to be used.' To me, the first can easily be interpreted as they didn't go through the paperwork crap. 'Not to be used' stands out to me as a very proactive statement.

I believe this is due to a bit of backlash I’ve read.. A lot of their marketing is geared toward “organic” and they use the term freely, however, because they’re not OMRI, legally it can’t be used to grow and sell “organic” crops. Some have purchased the product then turned around and complained that it wasn’t OMRI. I imagine it’s a proactive CYA (Cover Your Ass) move. The line gave me pause as well which is why I looked up the SDS and metal content before I bought it, I’ve never seen it so outright before. It’s an integrity move in my opinion versus some of these nutrient suppliers that try to pretend their products are organic with fancy labels and descriptions.