Jon's Final Florida Journal For Real

[Jon]

Double Grape

Small but mighty buds?

 

[Gee64]

What is the preferred % of soil to coco?

Well thats a bit of a contentious issue. It depends who you ask.

If you are just starting out, 25% and a large pot. As you get better you will get brix over 12 faster, and can reduce that.

The coco is a carbon source for the microbes. They love it.

As brix levels climb, the plant has more exudates, which are the preferred carbon source of microbes, so above 12 and the plant can sustain the microbes on exudates alone, but if brix crashes, you still want some soil carbon to get you through until brix rises again.

I use 2 gallons in my cooking mix per 20 gallon tub, but add none at uppotting. I don't recomend that for beginners, there's no safety net.

I have rescued hundreds of carbon deficient plants so I'm pretty good at it, but it's steady work until harvest.

You need 10% to cook the soil, which will get mostly used up in cooking, then 1 part EWC, 1 part cooked soil, and 1 part coco, mixed with perlite to how you like it, is a good place to start. If you run out of umph before the finish line you can start lowering the coco and replace it with cooked soil, or use a bigger pot.

The size of my plants are about the limit a 10gal can grow. So if in doubt, start with 15 or 20 gallon pots, or grab Rev's book so you have rescue recipes to get smaller pots thru.

 

[Azimuth]

This is the exact reason I push people towards coco in an organic mix. Its great carbon for the microbes and great K slow-released for the whole grow. It steadies the run from start to finish.

Man, you coulda shared that when I was making my mix for the twins. Makes more sense in this context. Kinda like putting different sources of calcium in a mix, each brings slightly different things to the party.

I still want to try to find more local sources of bound up K, but maybe I'll rethink my objections if I can't.

 

[Jon]

Well thats a bit of a contentious issue. It depends who you ask.

If you are just starting out, 25% and a large pot. As you get better you will get brix over 12 faster, and can reduce that.

The coco is a carbon source for the microbes. They love it.

As brix levels climb, the plant has more exudates, which are the preferred carbon source of microbes, so above 12 and the plant can sustain the microbes on exudates alone, but if brix crashes, you still want some soil carbon to get you through until brix rises again.

I use 2 gallons in my cooking mix per 20 gallon tub, but add none at uppotting. I don't recomend that for beginners, there's no safety net.

I have rescued hundreds of carbon deficient plants so I'm pretty good at it, but it's steady work until harvest.

You need 10% to cook the soil, which will get mostly used up in cooking, then 1 part EWC, 1 part cooked soil, and 1 part coco, mixed with perlite to how you like it, is a good place to start. If you run out of umph before the finish line you can start lowering the coco and replace it with cooked soil, or use a bigger pot.

The size of my plants are about the limit a 10gal can grow. So if in doubt, start with 15 or 20 gallon pots, or grab Rev's book so you have rescue recipes to get smaller pots thru.

Okay, I get all that. Thanks, @Gee64. So cooking the soil - I understand that with my own soil made from mulching I have to cook it. But my understanding was the way I’ll do the first organic grow, using FFOF as base and mixing the ingredients and letting it percolate, it wouldn’t be necessary to cook it, correct?

 

[Jon]

Okay, I get all that. Thanks, @Gee64. So cooking the soil - I understand that with my own soil made from mulching I have to cook it. But my understanding was the way I’ll do the first organic grow, using FFOF as base and mixing the ingredients and letting it percolate, it wouldn’t be necessary to cook it, correct?

Aha! This is the perfect use for the one bag of Coco-Loco I got to try! Check out the ingredients in it - it’s almost coco made for organics.

 

[Keffka]

Man, you coulda shared that when I was making my mix for the twins. Makes more sense in this context. Kinda like putting different sources of calcium in a mix, each brings slightly different things to the party.

I still want to try to find more local sources of bound up K, but maybe I'll rethink my objections if I can't.

I would also recommend some greensand. If you’re trying to source locally, you want marine bed sediment, so the sandy silty stuff on lake floors. You could check an ocean if you’re near just be careful with possible salt content

 

[Keffka]

Okay, I get all that. Thanks, @Gee64. So cooking the soil - I understand that with my own soil made from mulching I have to cook it. But my understanding was the way I’ll do the first organic grow, using FFOF as base and mixing the ingredients and letting it percolate, it wouldn’t be necessary to cook it, correct?

It needs to cook.. any time you add minerals you’re going to want to cook it. For those just getting here, cooking is just letting it sit, damp to moist, for a period of time to allow the microbes to bind up the minerals. The warmer it is, the less time it takes

 

[Jon]

It needs to cook.. any time you add minerals you’re going to want to cook it. For those just getting here, cooking is just letting it sit, damp to moist, for a period of time to allow the microbes to bind up the minerals. The warmer it is, the less time it takes

Ah! Thanks @Keffka, I was operating under a basic incorrect assumption. I thought the purpose of actually “cooking” soil you make yourself from scratch was a low temp thing in the oven to kill pests and such. I also thought, I guess, that the microbes would survive that, like 100-something degrees for twenty minutes or whatever it is. But you’re saying cooking the soil is exactly what I mean when I say “letting it percolate.” Cool. That’s way less hassle. Lol.

 

[Azimuth]

Plus, if you actually put your soil in the oven it would stink out the neighborhood.

 

[Gee64]

Okay, I get all that. Thanks, @Gee64. So cooking the soil - I understand that with my own soil made from mulching I have to cook it. But my understanding was the way I’ll do the first organic grow, using FFOF as base and mixing the ingredients and letting it percolate, it wouldn’t be necessary to cook it, correct?

Sorry Jon, I didn't realize you meant from commercial soil to harvest.

I have never used foxfarm soils, but I would think they are a typical cannabis soil, so when I start some new soil from commercial bags, such as you are doing, I usually make the 1st grow just the soil mixed with EWC, and perlited to your taste, then add spikes and layers for all my umph. And myco of course.

That burns the soil down and then when I rebuild it I do as I stated above.

It likely has the right amount of coco in it. Coco is a cheap but very good filler so it's usually adequate.

Check the ingredients. If coco isn't listed, mix in 10% at potting time and then a bit more perlite if it needs it.

Have hydrolysed fish ferts, molasses, and CalMg handy for the 1st run, you never quite know what comes out of a bag.

Add your myco at uppottings, not at cooking when you cook. Myco needs finished soil.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[Jon]

Ah! Thanks @Keffka, I was operating under a basic incorrect assumption. I thought the purpose of actually “cooking” soil you make yourself from scratch was a low temp thing in the oven to kill pests and such. I also thought, I guess, that the microbes would survive that, like 100-something degrees for twenty minutes or whatever it is. But you’re saying cooking the soil is exactly what I mean when I say “letting it percolate.” Cool. That’s way less hassle. Lol.

One more question @Keffka - I hear you about treating the plants to sugar once per cycle, that sort of echoes my instincts. My question is, how do you delineate cycles? Can you list the cycles as you see it? I see seedling, early to mid veg, mid to late veg, stretch, early to mid flower, and mid to late flower if asked the same question. Thanks.

 

[Jon]

Sorry Jon, I didn't realize you meant from commercial soil to harvest.

I have never used foxfarm soils, but I would think they are a typical cannabis soil, so when I start some new soil from commercial bags, such as you are doing, I usually make the 1st grow just the soil mixed with EWC, and perlited to your taste, then add spikes and layers for all my umph. And myco of course.

That burns the soil down and then when I rebuild it I do as I stated above.

It likely has the right amount of coco in it. Coco is a cheap but very good filler so it's usually adequate.

Check the ingredients. If coco isn't listed, mix in 10% at potting time and then a bit more perlite if it needs it.

Have hydrolysed fish ferts, molasses, and CalMg handy for the 1st run, you never quite know what comes out of a bag.

Add your myco at uppottings, not at cooking when you cook. Myco needs finished soil.

Hopefully that helps.

Yup. But I was going much further. I want to use all Yoda’s ingredients in it. You think that won’t work? Seems a bunch of lazy guys are doing it successfully?

 

[Gee64]

Yup. But I was going much further. I want to use all Yoda’s ingredients in it. You think that won’t work? Seems a bunch of lazy guys are doing it successfully?

Oh it could definitely work. The only reason I use soil on its own for the 1st grow is so I can see what it is deficient in, and more importantly, to burn it down so it doesn't interfere with my mix, but you can definitely recook a new bag with extras in it, it just might throw the ratios off, or not. Only 1 way too see.

 

[Azimuth]

I would also recommend some greensand. If you’re trying to source locally, you want marine bed sediment, so the sandy silty stuff on lake floors. You could check an ocean if you’re near just be careful with possible salt content

How about kelp?

 

[Jon]

How about kelp?

At this point I’m considering kelp, fish ferts, and EWC staples, no?

 

[Keffka]

Ah! Thanks @Keffka, I was operating under a basic incorrect assumption. I thought the purpose of actually “cooking” soil you make yourself from scratch was a low temp thing in the oven to kill pests and such. I also thought, I guess, that the microbes would survive that, like 100-something degrees for twenty minutes or whatever it is. But you’re saying cooking the soil is exactly what I mean when I say “letting it percolate.” Cool. That’s way less hassle. Lol.

lol I’m glad I said something then.. When I say cooking I more mean decomposing. The reason “cooking” is used is because the elements that get added wind up heating up the soil to a temperature that could be considered “cooking”. This is why even if you have myco in the mix, once it’s cooked, it has to be added again. The bacteria/microbes can survive this, but the myco cannot.

One more question @Keffka - I hear you about treating the plants to sugar once per cycle, that sort of echoes my instincts. My question is, how do you delineate cycles? Can you list the cycles as you see it? I see seedling, early to mid veg, mid to late veg, stretch, early to mid flower, and mid to late flower if asked the same question. Thanks.

Seedling, veg, flower. You can break it down further for other purposes like training and light quantity but when it comes to sugar I just view it as veg, and bloom. You can give sugar either right after seedling or in the middle of veg then the same for flower, right after flip or right after stretch.

How about kelp?

Kelp is always good.. It has something like 60+ trace elements and all kinds of goodies. Kelp should be cooked first as well. Adding it raw or unprocessed can overwhelm the environment

 

[Gee64]

Man, you coulda shared that when I was making my mix for the twins. Makes more sense in this context. Kinda like putting different sources of calcium in a mix, each brings slightly different things to the party.

I still want to try to find more local sources of bound up K, but maybe I'll rethink my objections if I can't.

I think I may have mentioned once or twice that coco is an almost perfect soil carbon. But I appreciate the path you are walking, and coco would defeat your misssion.

 

[Jon]

I think I may have mentioned once or twice that coco is an almost perfect soil carbon. But I appreciate the path you are walking, and coco would defeat your mission.

Interesting post.

 

[Gee64]

I would also recommend some greensand. If you’re trying to source locally, you want marine bed sediment, so the sandy silty stuff on lake floors. You could check an ocean if you’re near just be careful with possible salt content

Of all the ingredients I use, greensand is the steady base for everything else. It solidifies K for the whole grow and gets better every time you recycle. It makes everything else work better and pretty much eliminates K deficiencies. It sits on my shelf right between my calciums and my soft rock phosphate.

 

[Gee64]

Interesting post.

lol I didn't realize mission would auto-tag a link