Jon705's First Attempt at Organic SuperSoil Featuring TopLED's New COB LED Panel

[Governmentchz]

... I really hope Sara decides to swap for the bigger 5w Mars II, I could do a much more acurate test in the big room side by side, ...

 

[Techman]

on mothers, u can keep one going years and years. it just depends how u care for her that matters. was heart broken when i lost my main A.M.S mother, she was part of the family! yielded me thousands of cuts. Wasnt even that big, around 3'x3'x3'.

I figured so. I just let mine get too tall. Having to keep the light up higher to accommodate them is hindering the other growth. I have around 2-3 more months before it gets real cold around here, you think I could finish them outside?

Thanks.

 

[pucker huddle]

2 or 3 months! I have had a fire going in the woodstove for weeks.

 

[donpaul.p]

Hi jon, your plants look great,

as im not answering a question i thought id share some info i have got with my SNS prize package, i got one of their grow guides and it has a good section on led's, so hopefully you and your followers wont mind me adding this as it may be something that you can try and might be the answer to the slower growth you are getting, im not an led expert or even used led's but just thought this grow book provided some great info and might be something that will help produce better results,

ill break it down a bit as its a bit long winded, the info is provided in SNS grow magazing or grow book issue 4 2013,
the first comment made is led's are finally awsome.
now the SNS made some comments in their last issue sayng that the quality was their but not the growth or final yield.

they got a response from an led company by the sounds of it and this is what was said, we dont claim red and blues are the only wavelengths necessary; they are just the most important. we dont claim you will get more total weight just more weight per watt with way less heat compared to super hot hid bulbs, it says full spectrum led lighting is known for its very high quality finish.

now it goes on to say that led lights are like intense lasers, very focussed so theirs no scatter and because led manufactorers make their panels small with the led's close together your canopy will be small but the penetration deep.

it was saying the leds are way to intense so cant be kept as close to the plants as hid lights, then in big letters its says after all the number 1 problem is to much light. (this might be why jon and bid was not getting the fast growth rate due to the light been to intense, so i think jon is right about having the led 4 or 5 ft above the plants as if the lights to intense then the plants suffer and growth is slow)

im getting this info from SNS grow book so i just wanted to show you what i read so you might be able adapt something to help with the slow growth.

now im not sure on sara's led but they now produce a 12 spectrum led which might even be what your using or testing, but the main comment is that the leds are positioned to close together which produces very deep penetration but the light is to intense for the plants so it needs to be raised pretty high, a dimmable panel may be a good option so maybe suggest that to sara and see what they can come up with.

so it pretty much says as their is not much light scatter due to the leds been close together then plants dont bush out as much and the intense light keeps plants shorter because they dont need to grow up to the light, again its along the lines that the problem is to much intense light, in the test in the mag they got around this by using a dimmable led panel that was a bigger panel as the leds where spaced further apart, they also used a light rail with the led and this produed bushier plants as the light was covering more of the grow space and the outer branches then grew outwards so it ended up producing great results,

what i found very interesting is that it clearly states that led's produce the best quality product, maybe not the biggest yield compared to hid lighting but the quality of the end product is much better and i know id prefer to smoke an 8th of some amazing bud thats going to keep me on the couch compared to 1/4 or 1/2oz of lower quality bud that you need to smoke more of,

so to round up what it says its leaning towards the light been like lasers and very little scatter of light, this means its focussing all its light on the plant just below it, as the light is so bright then the plant suffers as to much light is a real problem according to this grow guide, so i think your spot on with having the led much higher compared with hid lighting. but what i found interesting was the dimmable led comment and the light more comment, using these the end results where good and it had the size and yield that compares with hid but the quality of the end product is a lot better compared to hid grown bud,

hope you didnt mind me posting this info i just thought you might like to read it and see if it can be worked into your grow or anyone elses grow who is using led, the main issues seems to be the light is to intense so miving it closer to the plant will slow growth even more as led's have really good penetration so it dont need to be that close to the plant, id love to be able to give an led a try so i can see the results for myself, but the quality part is something im sure all growers would want,

if you want the post deleted just report it mate, just thought you might want to have a read, theirs a lot more info in the grow guide and maybe you even got the grow guide from SNS when you won the contest, its in the issue 4 mag, its a pretty good guide.

 

[Mars Hydro]

Hi Jon, thanks for your real information, and I get it . I will not sell COB to any customer untill we find the right spectrums. we will make new spectrums for you, would you like to test for us again?

We'v heard from another professsional customer and he told us COB is really very great after his testing, now you tested, I believe your grow result for some personal reason. we will try our best to improve it, then sell it.

thank you very much, actually you give me a good news and tell me the truth, every company has deficiency. we would like to face it and solve it. I believe we will not be perfect, but we will be better and better thank you again jon.

Besides, I will talk the COB problem with my boss later, but today is weekend, so time is limited, maybe I can not get a solution today, but as soon as I get a solution, I will tell all of you here. I will read 38~41pages when I have more time.I am going to have a short meeting now. have a nice weekend all my friends.

Top Led COB update, day 10 from the flip

Ok so all the plants that were under the COB turned out to be males so I took one of the 3 fems from the flower room and put it under the COB, all 3 plants were pretty much identical in size and structure, The COB has been 14 inches from the top of the plant for 7 of the 10 days from the flip, it was 24 inches for the first 3 days.
Theres definetly something missing from this light, 10 days is not a long time to see such obvious differences between the COB plant and the other 2, one is directly under a 1000w hps and the other is right in the middle of my big panels which are 31 inches from the tops of the plants, by the time they stop stretching they should be around 24-26 inches from the canopy. I really dont know enough about different light spectrums and what each one does for the plants but I think its safe to say that red and blue alone is not enough spectrums.
The plant on the left is the COB plant and the one on the right is from under my big Area 51 panels.

The one on the right is almost twice the size of the COB plant already.
THe 3rd plant is from the hps side of the room, its in a bit taller pot than the others so its still pretty much identical to the Area 51 plant.

Even the stalks on the other 2 are thicker than the COB plant.
COB

the other 2

Im not really sure what else to say at this point, clearly theres issues with this light, I have an agreement with TopLed to document a grow with this light so im going to finish it but I wont be using it after this journal is complete, Sorry Sara I wish I had better news for you.

PS: All 3 plants are in roughly the same size pots in supersoil, they have all gotten one dose of soil activator tea and plain ro water ever since, the room the COB is in is inside the flower room, the door is open and theres a fan blowing co2 enriched air into the room,room conditions are identical for all 3 plants.

 

[Output]

Hi Jon, thanks for your real information, and I get it . I will not sell COB to any customer untill we find the right spectrums. we will make new spectrums for you, would you like to test for us again?

We'v heard from another professsional customer and he told us COB is really very great after his testing, now you tested, I believe your grow result for some personal reason. we will try our best to improve it, then sell it.

thank you very much, actually you give me a good news and tell me the truth, every company has deficiency. we would like to face it and solve it. I believe we will not be perfect, but we will be better and better thank you again jon.

Besides, I will talk the COB problem with my boss later, but today is weekend, so time is limited, maybe I can not get a solution today, but as soon as I get a solution, I will tell all of you here. I will read 38~41pages when I have more time.I am going to have a short meeting now. have a nice weekend all my friends.

I will be very interested in the solution you have for me as well, Sara. Based on what you had told me, I believed that you knew that these were great lights and produced well. Now, we know there are issues with them.

And it is great to hear that you are going to amend the spectrum to make them better. That will help future customers. And I do expect that we can resolve this in my case as well. Mine is still in transit to me.

 

[Output]

Donpaul, that is some really good information.

Just reading it gave me a sense of excitement. I am so excited about the quality that LED technology seems to bring.

BID said it spot on, a few ounces of super high-quality product is far more desirable than double that of brick weed. (Sorry BID, that's not a direct quote but I think it's pretty close.) LOL

Between my LEDs that are coming and organic soil, we are talking about some good quality. Yum.

 

[Cultivator]

Just a quick observation from my own growing. Any strain has a maximum potential and no matter what u do or change once u have the plant at its max, thats it. doesnt matter if u change feeds or use different lights. So what im saying is this, if u know the strain u are growing and getting the best out of it then dont change what u are doing, whether u use hid's or leds shouldnt make a difference if u no how to grow properly. If u are a good grower u will make either work. i honestly dont believe leds will give me a better quality product. Im not at all saying led's arent good or great, im just saying i cant see how leds would improve on what im growing, quality and yield wise. They may match it but i doubt they will better it. I have plants right now that are 4 weeks in flower that are stickier than some ive seen in 9 weeks.

The point im trying to make is this. if u are going to choose led's because u only want to have better quality meds, i would suggest looking at ur grow techniques first. also ive seen more failures with leds than success. jon breaks the mould there, probably because he has a solid growing foundation and has been to use the technology to its best capability. ofcourse there are others that have decent grows with them but just from what ive seen seems to be more bad results than good.

Having said all that i have just placed an order for 10 Led panels and im going to give them a try. But my reason for buying isnt to improve quality, its to see if they will make grow environment easier to manage, especially in the summer months when its too hot here or in the winter months so my lights have no chance of a thermal foot print.

 

[Curso]

Just a quick observation from my own growing. Any strain has a maximum potential and no matter what u do or change once u have the plant at its max, thats it. doesnt matter if u change feeds or use different lights. So what im saying is this, if u know the strain u are growing and getting the best out of it then dont change what u are doing, whether u use hid's or leds shouldnt make a difference if u no how to grow properly. If u are a good grower u will make either work. i honestly dont believe leds will give me a better quality product. Im not at all saying led's arent good or great, im just saying i cant see how leds would improve on what im growing, quality and yield wise. They may match it but i doubt they will better it. I have plants right now that are 4 weeks in flower that are stickier than some ive seen in 9 weeks.

The point im trying to make is this. if u are going to choose led's because u only want to have better quality meds, i would suggest looking at ur grow techniques first. also ive seen more failures with leds than success. jon breaks the mould there, probably because he has a solid growing foundation and has been to use the technology to its best capability. ofcourse there are others that have decent grows with them but just from what ive seen seems to be more bad results than good.

Having said all that i have just placed an order for 10 Led panels and im going to give them a try. But my reason for buying isnt to improve quality, its to see if they will make grow environment easier to manage, especially in the summer months when its too hot here or in the winter months so my lights have no chance of a thermal foot print.

Quoted for truth

100% the reason I went with LED was cost effectiveness.

 

[jon705]

Hi jon, your plants look great,

as im not answering a question i thought id share some info i have got with my SNS prize package, i got one of their grow guides and it has a good section on led's, so hopefully you and your followers wont mind me adding this as it may be something that you can try and might be the answer to the slower growth you are getting, im not an led expert or even used led's but just thought this grow book provided some great info and might be something that will help produce better results,

ill break it down a bit as its a bit long winded, the info is provided in SNS grow magazing or grow book issue 4 2013,
the first comment made is led's are finally awsome.
now the SNS made some comments in their last issue sayng that the quality was their but not the growth or final yield.

they got a response from an led company by the sounds of it and this is what was said, we dont claim red and blues are the only wavelengths necessary; they are just the most important. we dont claim you will get more total weight just more weight per watt with way less heat compared to super hot hid bulbs, it says full spectrum led lighting is known for its very high quality finish.

now it goes on to say that led lights are like intense lasers, very focussed so theirs no scatter and because led manufactorers make their panels small with the led's close together your canopy will be small but the penetration deep.

it was saying the leds are way to intense so cant be kept as close to the plants as hid lights, then in big letters its says after all the number 1 problem is to much light. (this might be why jon and bid was not getting the fast growth rate due to the light been to intense, so i think jon is right about having the led 4 or 5 ft above the plants as if the lights to intense then the plants suffer and growth is slow)

im getting this info from SNS grow book so i just wanted to show you what i read so you might be able adapt something to help with the slow growth.

now im not sure on sara's led but they now produce a 12 spectrum led which might even be what your using or testing, but the main comment is that the leds are positioned to close together which produces very deep penetration but the light is to intense for the plants so it needs to be raised pretty high, a dimmable panel may be a good option so maybe suggest that to sara and see what they can come up with.

so it pretty much says as their is not much light scatter due to the leds been close together then plants dont bush out as much and the intense light keeps plants shorter because they dont need to grow up to the light, again its along the lines that the problem is to much intense light, in the test in the mag they got around this by using a dimmable led panel that was a bigger panel as the leds where spaced further apart, they also used a light rail with the led and this produed bushier plants as the light was covering more of the grow space and the outer branches then grew outwards so it ended up producing great results,

what i found very interesting is that it clearly states that led's produce the best quality product, maybe not the biggest yield compared to hid lighting but the quality of the end product is much better and i know id prefer to smoke an 8th of some amazing bud thats going to keep me on the couch compared to 1/4 or 1/2oz of lower quality bud that you need to smoke more of,

so to round up what it says its leaning towards the light been like lasers and very little scatter of light, this means its focussing all its light on the plant just below it, as the light is so bright then the plant suffers as to much light is a real problem according to this grow guide, so i think your spot on with having the led much higher compared with hid lighting. but what i found interesting was the dimmable led comment and the light more comment, using these the end results where good and it had the size and yield that compares with hid but the quality of the end product is a lot better compared to hid grown bud,

hope you didnt mind me posting this info i just thought you might like to read it and see if it can be worked into your grow or anyone elses grow who is using led, the main issues seems to be the light is to intense so miving it closer to the plant will slow growth even more as led's have really good penetration so it dont need to be that close to the plant, id love to be able to give an led a try so i can see the results for myself, but the quality part is something im sure all growers would want,

if you want the post deleted just report it mate, just thought you might want to have a read, theirs a lot more info in the grow guide and maybe you even got the grow guide from SNS when you won the contest, its in the issue 4 mag, its a pretty good guide.

Thanks DP, I have the same mag, 3 of them actually, I ve been saying the exact same thing for 4 journals now about led's, 95% of the led growers here have read what I said and disagree with me saying the lights can be closer because they arent as hot, thats flat out wrong imho but to each they're own, i ve used the panels I have in pretty much every way they can be as I slowly figure out what works best and the tecnique I use now(recomended by the designer of my panels) works best by far, dont move the lights at all, start the plants far away from the lights and let them grow up into the intense light as they get used to it, if you see the pistils curling away from the light then the light is to close, if you have stunted growth and airy nugs chances are the light is to close...period.

 

[jon705]

Just a quick observation from my own growing. Any strain has a maximum potential and no matter what u do or change once u have the plant at its max, thats it. doesnt matter if u change feeds or use different lights. So what im saying is this, if u know the strain u are growing and getting the best out of it then dont change what u are doing, whether u use hid's or leds shouldnt make a difference if u no how to grow properly. If u are a good grower u will make either work. i honestly dont believe leds will give me a better quality product. Im not at all saying led's arent good or great, im just saying i cant see how leds would improve on what im growing, quality and yield wise. They may match it but i doubt they will better it. I have plants right now that are 4 weeks in flower that are stickier than some ive seen in 9 weeks.

The point im trying to make is this. if u are going to choose led's because u only want to have better quality meds, i would suggest looking at ur grow techniques first. also ive seen more failures with leds than success. jon breaks the mould there, probably because he has a solid growing foundation and has been to use the technology to its best capability. ofcourse there are others that have decent grows with them but just from what ive seen seems to be more bad results than good.

Having said all that i have just placed an order for 10 Led panels and im going to give them a try. But my reason for buying isnt to improve quality, its to see if they will make grow environment easier to manage, especially in the summer months when its too hot here or in the winter months so my lights have no chance of a thermal foot print.

I think once you get the hang of those Area 51 panels your going to be very suprised at how good the quality of the flowers will be, its better than hps bro, the trych production is probably 30% better than hps and the density is better as well. When you pull off a led grow do a blind test with your friends, give them a nug grown under led and a nug grown under hps same strain and have them tell you which one is better, im willing to bet the led nug will win everytime. In my opinion if you know how to use them properly led's produce better weed. As for the yield I think your looking at it the same way I am, if I can get the same weight with less watts why cant I get more weight with the same watts, im not worried about my hydro bill, it is what it is, the grow pays for it no matter what, my room originally had 6000w of hps, when im done with this room I want it to have 6000w of led in it, I think its safe to say that my yields will be 20-30% better than the same room with 6000w of hps in it, I'd bet my house on it

 

[Curso]

I think once you get the hang of those Area 51 panels your going to be very suprised at how good the quality of the flowers will be, its better than hps bro, the trych production is probably 30% better than hps and the density is better as well. When you pull off a led grow do a blind test with your friends, give them a nug grown under led and a nug grown under hps same strain and have them tell you which one is better, im willing to bet the led nug will win everytime. In my opinion if you know how to use them properly led's produce better weed. As for the yield I think your looking at it the same way I am, if I can get the same weight with less watts why cant I get more weight with the same watts, im not worried about my hydro bill, it is what it is, the grow pays for it no matter what, my room originally had 6000w of hps, when im done with this room I want it to have 6000w of led in it, I think its safe to say that my yields will be 20-30% better than the same room with 6000w of hps in it, I'd bet my house on it

Thanks for reminding me to raise my light...I kept forgetting...Stoner...

 

[jon705]

Hi Jon, thanks for your real information, and I get it . I will not sell COB to any customer untill we find the right spectrums. we will make new spectrums for you, would you like to test for us again?

We'v heard from another professsional customer and he told us COB is really very great after his testing, now you tested, I believe your grow result for some personal reason. we will try our best to improve it, then sell it.

thank you very much, actually you give me a good news and tell me the truth, every company has deficiency. we would like to face it and solve it. I believe we will not be perfect, but we will be better and better thank you again jon.

Besides, I will talk the COB problem with my boss later, but today is weekend, so time is limited, maybe I can not get a solution today, but as soon as I get a solution, I will tell all of you here. I will read 38~41pages when I have more time.I am going to have a short meeting now. have a nice weekend all my friends.

Heres my proposition Sara, I will send this COB back to you at my expense, send me a 240 x 5w Mars II to test out, I will take one of my Area 51 panels down and put the Mars II in its place and do a proper comparison, 1000w hps vs 600w Area 51 3w panel vs your 240 x 5w Mars II panel, you have already sold some lights from the publicity you are getting here at why not showcase your best light against one of your competitors and a 1000w hps, the light the Mars II is suposed to replace? If I like the results I get from the Mars II I will commit to buy 3 more of them and change my whole flower room over to Led, you have my word on this and then eventually the veg room too, what do you think?

Honestly Sara, I really have no use for a small panel like this, even if the spectrums were right all I would use it for is filling in a gap in between my big panels, if you would like me to keep testing COB's for you then I need one big enough to replace at least one of the hps in my big flower room, the room the COB is in now was not designed to grow plants in, it was for my nutrient reservoir, getting in and out of that small space is tough when im not carying anything(im 6'2 260 pds) and its a real pain in the arse if im trying to move the plant in and out for photos. you can see the 3 1000w hps in this picture

I want to replace them all with led panels and I will next year, right now Area 51 is still on the top of my list, I trust that company so when they tell me they're new lights are better than the ones I have now I believe them and want them lol...If I was shopping around looking at different panels your Mars II 240 x 5w would be the panel I would be interested in buying to replace the hps, the problem is this is my career, this is how I pay my bills and support my family, I cant afford to switch out one of my big panels for a larger untested COB and end up with a pound less than normal, thats $3000.00 thats not in my wallet paying bills and putting food on the table. I ment what I said in my proposition, and I ll sweeten the deal if your interested,

I will send you the COB back at my expenses, send me a Mars II 240 x 5w to test out, I will replace one of my panels or more than likely 1 of my 1000w hps with it in the big room and do the comparison I mentioned, if I like the results I will commit to buy 3 more 240 x 5w Mars II from you if not more, if you want me to keep testing the COB's for you as you modify them I will in that small space with the same 200w COB panel until you get the spectrums right, it takes time and $$ for me to do these tests for you, I dont think im asking to much, if your willing to help me out then im willing to keep doing these tests for you until we figure out the right spectrums, just off the top of my head I would say that you have to figure out how to get white led's in the COB, half my Area 51 panels are white chips and I get exellent results with them. What do you think Sara?

 

[Governmentchz]

...If I was shopping around looking at different panels your Mars II 240 x 5w would be the panel I would be interested in buying to replace the hps, the problem is this is my career, this is how I pay my bills and support my family, I cant afford to switch out one of my big panels for a larger untested COB and end up with a pound less than normal, thats $3000.00 thats not in my wallet paying bills and putting food on the table. I ment what I said in my proposition, and I ll sweeten the deal if your interested,

I will send you the COB back at my expenses, send me a Mars II 240 x 5w to test out, I will replace one of my panels or more than likely 1 of my 1000w hps with it in the big room and do the comparison I mentioned, if I like the results I will commit to buy 3 more 240 x 5w Mars II from you if not more, if you want me to keep testing the COB's for you as you modify them I will in that small space with the same 200w COB panel until you get the spectrums right, it takes time and $$ for me to do these tests for you, I dont think im asking to much, if your willing to help me out then im willing to keep doing these tests for you until we figure out the right spectrums, just off the top of my head I would say that you have to figure out how to get white led's in the COB, half my Area 51 panels are white chips and I get exellent results with them. What do you think Sara?

Sounds like a win, win to me. I'd love to see what you do with one of those 240x5w panels.

 

[mcloadie]

Ya know, I've been following jons work for over or around a year now, there has been so much information on this thread that it's literally impossible to see all the work.....and even after seeing what I have, my mind will recall small details that have been noted........there's a lot to remember. This work deserves more than a perusal, but a study is in order. As for the test light; I want to commend both sara and jon; jon for his exacting work and documentation, sara nailed this one in her choices for testing it...or them....she should get a promotion, because between her and r&d dept. of her co., I think they will tweak the product until they get the maximum potential with this technology. Very professional...both of you!

 

[Cultivator]

jon i hope u are right buddy. i would never have even thought of buying leds before i knew u mate. i'll see what i can do with the leds ive ordered. i can see they work by what u are doing. but i'll take some convincing to say they'll produce better quality, however im open minded so we shall see mate.

do u think 3 panels would be ok for a 2.4mx1.2mx2.4m tent? and what about replacing my cfls for mothers with a panel too?

if so i'll journal that one. i bit sketchy showing anything over a dozen plants after my recent run in with law.

 

[jon705]

Ya know, I've been following jons work for over or around a year now, there has been so much information on this thread that it's literally impossible to see all the work.....and even after seeing what I have, my mind will recall small details that have been noted........there's a lot to remember. This work deserves more than a perusal, but a study is in order. As for the test light; I want to commend both sara and jon; jon for his exacting work and documentation, sara nailed this one in her choices for testing it...or them....she should get a promotion, because between her and r&d dept. of her co., I think they will tweak the product until they get the maximum potential with this technology. Very professional...both of you!

Thanks bro Im trying

 

[Jay233]

Sounds like a win, win to me. I'd love to see what you do with one of those 240x5w panels.

I agree...very fair deal...with excellent potential for rewards on both sides

Very nice work Jon...always a pleasure to follow your grows

 

[jon705]

jon i hope u are right buddy. i would never have even thought of buying leds before i knew u mate. i'll see what i can do with the leds ive ordered. i can see they work by what u are doing. but i'll take some convincing to say they'll produce better quality, however im open minded so we shall see mate.

do u think 3 panels would be ok for a 2.4mx1.2mx2.4m tent? and what about replacing my cfls for mothers with a panel too?

if so i'll journal that one. i bit sketchy showing anything over a dozen plants after my recent run in with law.

I know im Canadian but I hate the metric system lol...let me see, theres 3.2 ft in a meter so that would be 7.7ft x 3.8ft x 7.7ft right? the core footprint of the lights you bought are 2ft x 3ft if I remember right, so 3 of them would give you a core coverage of 3ft x 6ft, with led's once your outside of the core coverage the umol's drop very quickly, they are focused beams of light unlike a hps with just throws the light out in every direction so if you want to fill that tent to capacity with no room to move around then I would say use 4 lights in there, that would give you a core coverage of 4ft x 6ft the bit of space on the end could be for your dehuey and filter or whatever else you want.
As for vegging it depends on how big your vegging them bro, I find cfl's do a great job of keeping small plants tight and compact but after about 6-8 inches penetration sucks with them, led's veg them the same, tight compact bushes but you can veg them as big as you want and will probably get there quicker with led's, just seems like a waste to designate one of those full spectrum panels just for a veg light, did you ask Jeff if he could make a panel with veg only spectrums in it? Thats what I plan on doing when I convert my veg room over to led, with a perpetual grow where the flower room and the veg room are always running full blast for me it makes sense to get veg only panels for the veg room

 

[jon705]

I agree...very fair deal...with excellent potential for rewards on both sides

Very nice work Jon...always a pleasure to follow your grows

Thanks bro