InTheShed Grows Inside & Out: Jump In Any Time

[InTheShed]

Yes, I do top -dressing every 12 days. It seems to be working okay...so far.

Well I need to catch up then, so I should top dress today (8 days) and water it in with my Red Dragon nutes so I don't get too far behind in flower. Thanks GDB!

I'd like to see those, at least once! That way I might be able to figure out what the "equivalent to" phrase really means.

Be glad to! Using Hydrobuddy (having been trained and advised by @MrSauga), here are my targets for the first part of flowering:

In addition to bumping the nitrogen again, flowering moves past the 5-1-5 NPK for veg and raises the K higher than the N. The ideal K/Ca/Mg ratios remain the same (at 41) and S is 10% of N, all of which is possible only if the nutes you have will offer you that kind of control. Also, 50ppm of silica which comes in on its own with Stout MSA.

After putting in the nutes I wanted to use for my mix (three plus the silica), Hydrobuddy gave me the following formula.

On the top is the amount of each nute to add (in GRAMS, even for liquids) to 1 gallon of water. The lower left tells you what your actual numbers will be and how far off your mix will be compared to what you wanted.

For example, the sulfur is much higher than the 10% of N on my mix because there's a lot in the epsom salts (which is added for Mg). That level of S hasn't bothered the plant, so I don't worry about it. If I had a cal-mag with better ratios than what I have on hand, I might be able to use that rather than epsom salts and have less sulfur.

It looks like the N is 11.6% low, but you would need to add the N at the bottom of the list to get the total (top N is nitrate and bottom N is ammoniacal), so that puts me at 124.3, or very close to my 132ppm target.

Hope that sheds a bit of light on the process. I know it seems complicated, but once it's done, it's still mixing less stuff than when I started with Fox Farms, and if I can end up with plants even close to MrS' then it's worth the learning curve to me.

I'll answer any questions I can!

 

[StoneOtter]

I'll be gone for 4 days in a couple of weeks

If you're coming to Boston for a visit let me know and I'll put some ribs on.

 

[InTheShed]

If you're coming to Boston for a visit let me know and I'll put some ribs on.

Otter, I will absolutely do that next time I'm anywhere near Boston! This trip only takes me as far as northern California for my daughter's college graduation, and moving all her crap we don't have room for back home.

 

[Grand Daddy Black]

Well I need to catch up then, so I should top dress today (8 days) and water it in with my Red Dragon nutes so I don't get too far behind in flower. Thanks GDB!

Be glad to! Using Hydrobuddy (having been trained and advised by @MrSauga), here are my targets for the first part of flowering:

In addition to bumping the nitrogen again, flowering moves past the 5-1-5 NPK for veg and raises the K higher than the N. The ideal K/Ca/Mg ratios remain the same (at 41) and S is 10% of N, all of which is possible only if the nutes you have will offer you that kind of control. Also, 50ppm of silica which comes in on its own with Stout MSA.

After putting in the nutes I wanted to use for my mix (three plus the silica), Hydrobuddy gave me the following formula.

On the top is the amount of each nute to add (in GRAMS, even for liquids) to 1 gallon of water. The lower left tells you what your actual numbers will be and how far off your mix will be compared to what you wanted.

For example, the sulfur is much higher than the 10% of N on my mix because there's a lot in the epsom salts (which is added for Mg). That level of S hasn't bothered the plant, so I don't worry about it. If I had a cal-mag with better ratios than what I have on hand, I might be able to use that rather than epsom salts and have less sulfur.

It looks like the N is 11.6% low, but you would need to add the N at the bottom of the list to get the total (top N is nitrate and bottom N is ammoniacal), so that puts me at 124.3, or very close to my 132ppm target.

Hope that sheds a bit of light on the process. I know it seems complicated, but once it's done, it's still mixing less stuff than when I started with Fox Farms, and if I can end up with plants even close to MrS' then it's worth the learning curve to me.

I'll answer any questions I can!

Thanks Shed! I downloaded the app (and I got version 1.95, ha ha).

First question, how are the targeted doses established? Or is this a question for what's-his-name?

 

[InTheShed]

version 1.95

New and improved I hope!

First question, how are the targeted doses established? Or is this a question for what's-his-name?

I'll give it a shot since what's-his-name isn't here as much as he'd like to! Keep in mind that these numbers are based on the fact that you have enough nutes on hand to get close to these ratios. And remember to include Boron.



In veg, the targets are tied to nitrogen the same way they are with MC, so you can use the MC 1-part elemental feeding calculator to see where those fall. For example, if you were thinking of going to 3.5g/gallon, the MC calc says that's 92.75ppm for 1 gallon water.

So the 93 goes in the N value on the Hydrobuddy (which you have set for 1 gallon), and then you enter the rest based on a 5-1-5 NPK and the 4/2/1 for K/Ca/Mg ratios, and 10% of N for sulfur.

Those numbers would be 93-19-93 for NPK, and if 93 is K, Ca would be 46 and Mg would be 23, with sulfur at 9.3.

As you decide to add more nitrogen, you would enter new N number to match the PPM from the MC calc and the rest follow.

Silica ramps up very quickly from 10 to 30 to 50ppm from the first nute watering.

Once you move into flower, the NPK numbers no longer stick to the 5-1-5 ratio as potassium gets bumped higher than nitrogen. The 5g equivalent now becomes 132 but with K at 150 (the K/Ca/Mg ratios remain), and the 5.5g eq becomes 160N and 180K. If you have an incredibly hungry plant, the numbers would top out at 180N and 200K.

All of this starts by entering the element list from the labels of each of your nutes into the Substance database so you can start to pick and choose the ones that will get you close to your target numbers. If it says one isn't used, go back and remove it to get a better answer rather than leaving it in and ignoring it. Just one of the quirks.

 

[BigD13]

the pale Tin Can Kush above is in the last of the ProMix HP with no added anything.

Didn’t you have an issue with ProMix in the past? From what I remember, it had something to do with your long veg times. I can’t remember exactly what it was, pH maybe, but from what I recall the ProMix guy told you to use a certain amount of a specific brand of nutes, for a certain amount of feedings. I can’t remember if that was similar to the issue you’re having now or not. Any of that ring a bell?

 

[InTheShed]

Didn’t you have an issue with ProMix in the past? From what I remember, it had something to do with your long veg times. I can’t remember exactly what it was, pH maybe, but from what I recall the ProMix guy told you to use a certain amount of a specific brand of nutes, for a certain amount of feedings. I can’t remember if that was similar to the issue you’re having now or not. Any of that ring a bell?

The long veg times and the high nitrate MC nutes tended to raise the pH of the ProMix over time, so he recommended a brand of nutes that was higher in ammoniacal N to lower the pH, for about 2 weeks. But the Tin Can Kush is just getting plain water and GeoFlora veg, while the Red Dragon is on a blend of MC, Blue Planet Micro, and epsom salts. Both BP and MC are almost entirely nitrate, but it hasn't seemed to cause a problem so far.

 

[Grand Daddy Black]

New and improved I hope!

I'll give it a shot since what's-his-name isn't here as much as he'd like to!

That was a great shot Shed. It helps a whole lot - thanks!

 

[BigD13]

The long veg times and the high nitrate MC nutes tended to raise the pH of the ProMix over time

OK. I remember now.

I'm leaning toward adding some Blue Planet Ca-mag Pro (8-0-0) to the next couple of waterings to see how that goes.

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[InTheShed]

Sounds like a good plan.

I've already bailed on that plan and went with another top dressing today (8 days after the last one), watered in with the same stuff I'm feeding the Red Dragon, since it's already mixed! I'm not willing to sacrifice that big beautiful plant at the altar of testing GeoFlora.

If it looks better I'll wean it off the nutes over the next week and see how it does with more frequent top-dressings going forward.

 

[Tommboy1973]

I’m all caught up again, although I must admit a lot of what you posted is a bit too much for my currently medicated brain to process.

Plants are looking good tho, despite your nute issues. I kinda like how they look like little happy dwarf trees!

he recommended a brand of nutes that was higher in ammoniacal N to lower the pH

Can you share what was recommended? I’m wondering if it would be an option to help me counter the highly alkaline tap water here that I may be forced to use soon if it doesn’t rain. Hauling RO water for an outdoor grow here in the desert isn’t going to be practical for long, or good for my back

 

[InTheShed]

Plants are looking good tho, despite your nute issues. I kinda like how they look like little happy dwarf trees!

Thanks Tommy! I'm pretty sure I can turn the Tin Can Kush around one way or another. The Jack Herer on the other hand...

a lot of what you posted is a bit too much for my currently medicated brain to process.

A lot of what I posted on nute mixing was for GDB (because he asked), or others with an interest in hitting specific marks in a similar way to MrS...and his look pretty good!

Can you share what was recommended?

Sure! He recommended Jack's 20-10-20 but it only comes in a really big bag for something I was only going to need for a couple of weeks now and then. So I found a different product with the same percentages of elements called Grow More Orchid Fertilizer in their 20-10-20 blend. Looks like this:

It's missing a lot of the micronutrients, so you would need to mix it with something else to get what plants crave.

 

[Virgin Ground]

Was it the too much GF or the 4-0-0 that made them too dark? What happened before the cal-mag that made you want to add it?

The GF. I had switched to TPS 0-0-0 by the end. Forgot to mention that.

LOL! Mebs. Or mebs I should put them in GeoPots instead?

You should. They have the VG seal of approval!

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks VG!

The GF.

When you type that I think you're referring to yourself.

You should. They have the VG seal of approval!

I can see why! You have them in almost every possible permutation.

 

[Tommboy1973]

Thanks! And he said to just use it for 2 weeks correct? 2 weeks one time or off and on every 2 weeks with your normal nutes?

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks! And he said to just use it for 2 weeks correct? 2 weeks one time or off and on every 2 weeks with your normal nutes?

It's not something to use on a schedule as it's more something to try when the slurry test tells you the pH of your substrate is out of range on the high side. After two weeks you go back to what you were using before until the pH slides out of whack again, whenever that is.

But it has 0 calcium or magnesium or boron or a lot of other things we have in our nutes, so the best thing would be to find a product that can provide some of that. Especially if you need to use it for longer periods or more often.

 

[Virgin Ground]

Ya know what? I'm gonna take that comment back.
I had two seconds to reflect.
I'm not 100% sure if my spruce-like green came only from the GF. Mag excess will give the same color issues.
I did suspect that I had a cal excess at the end of Charlotte's grow.

I know I was overfeeding the GF. Some could have been from the TPS.

What I think and what the reality is can differ. I can only give my observations.

It was probably too much of both?
I'm too inexperienced with both of them to give you a solid answer.
My apologies.

 

[InTheShed]

I know I was overfeeding the GF.

Do you remember:
1. How much you were feeding?
2. Why more than the standard amount?
3. Why did you suspect a cal-mag deficiency?
4. Were you seeing issues with the lower leaves and went for the kitchen sink approach?

I can only give my observations.

That's all I can ask for!

My apologies.

None needed. All input appreciated, even retractions and new info!

 

[Virgin Ground]

Do you remember:
1. How much you were feeding?
2. Why more than the standard amount?
3. Why did you suspect a cal-mag deficiency?
4. Were you seeing issues with the lower leaves and went for the kitchen sink approach?

1. I was using ounces but was weighing them out. This gave me way too much.
2. Stupidity? Saw the first option of ounces and didn't pay attention to the chart that went by cups.
3. Mag def due to chlorosis in the leaf margins early on. I now think that less time between feedings solved this issue,along with the proper nute amounts given to the plant and time for the herd to establish before transplant.
4. Yes,it was the lower leaves but was making it's way up into the mid-canopy.

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks VG. That was very helpful! I think you're on a 10 day schedule now, yes?

I was using ounces but was weighing them out. This gave me way too much.

Of course you were, because GF didn't realize how many growers think!

Stupidity?

On GeoFlora's part, definitely. I'm so glad they changed their feeding chart to say fluid ounces now.

Mag def due to chlorosis in the leaf margins early on. I now think that less time between feedings solved this issue,along with the proper nute amounts given to the plant and time for the herd to establish before transplant.

I think that the instructions should include that your substrate should be prepared two weeks before planting/transplanting to allow for the stuff to start working before you put a plant in it.

Yes,it was the lower leaves but was making it's way up into the mid-canopy.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks again!