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Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect
This is really dependent on a few things and also with HID. Really "penetration", the way I look at it is the range of acceptable light, and what I mean by this is at what distance can a light source penetrate into the canopy, keeping a PPFD of higher than 510micromoles. (flowering). So really this itself is dependent on the wattage of the light used, the reflector for the HID/or angle of the LED beams. For intstance if you take a 400w HID or a low wattage 400w LED light, the range at which this light will throw light that is higher than 510micromoles could only be about 1 1/2 feet away from the light,(hypothetically). Now if you take a 1000w HID or LED, the light is much more intense, so the "range of acceptable light" will be further away from the light source itself making it penetrate better than the lower wattage counterpart.. This is why I typically will recommend higher wattage lights (both HID or LED) for those that grow large monster plants, because that "throw" or "range of acceptable light" needs to be larger. For those that grow in a scrog or sea of green style, then its actually better to have a lot of smaller wattage lights placed in an array above the canopy, since with this grow style the plants only may be 1-2' high, so the range of acceptable light or "throw" doesn't need to be as great...
Beam angle of LED's and reflector type of HID's also is an infuence to this. A led with a tight Beam angle or a boxy direct downward type reflector are going to bunch up that light into a tighter beam of light, which will offer more intensity directly under the light, and will have more "throw" but will not cover a large area. LED's with wider angle lenses, COBs and HID bulbs with wide based reflectors will not have as much intensity underneath the light, or not as much throw, but will cover a greater area. These types of reflectors and/or LEDs are better used for a scrog/sea of green where super intensity and range aren't needed, but coverage would be.
Pretty much think of a flashlight with a adjustable beam, where you can make it into a spotlight, or a floodlight. The spotlight will have more penetration/throw/range of acceptable light but hardly cover a very large area, where as a floodlight setting will be the opposite. So really its not about LED or HID, its about the way the light is focused onto your grow area and the actual wattage used by the light
The second part of your question is a bit tougher to answer... and I really don't have the answer your looking for but I will try to explain. So are you ready to get confused
Claimed "wattage" of a led chips is kind of a moot point label if you ask me because for instance OSRAM calls there SSL chips 1w on their website, however LED grow light manufactures call them 3w, and if you take the max current and voltage of an SSL chip you would get
OSRAM SSL: Osram calls these 1w chips, LED grow light companies call them 3w chips...
Blue 451nm = 3.25v x 1000mA = 3.25W MAX wattage
Red 660nm = 2.60V x 1000mA = 2.60W MAX wattage
Lets look at Epistar, which one of our sponsors calls them use 5w chips...
EPISTAR:
RED:
Blue: 3.5V x 1000mA= 3.5W
RED: 2.6V x 700mA = 1.82W
Now lets look at CREE XTE chips which Cree calls 5w chips (now these are at 1500mA)
Blue 3.5V x 1500mA = 5.25W
Cree XPE red (Cree calls these 2.5 watt chips)
RED 2.5V x 1000mA = 2.5 W chips...
So after looking at all these figures... .What does that tell us about a chip being called "5w" or "3W".... Absolutely nothing Like when you look at Epistar and Osram, they both run at 1000mA, both have a max voltage of around 3.25-3.5, so theoretically they can both max out around 3.25 to 3.5w, however depending on the brand, they may be labeled as 3W or 5W chips... see what I mean, chip wattage classification is a moot point and really means nothing...
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So when looking at LED chips, its best to get the actual chip used, the BIN rating, and then look at the data sheets because this is going to give you a good comparison between chips....for instance....
lets look at some blue chips in the 450-460nm range... Top BIN's. What we want to look at is the Radiant Flux of each chip, meaning when driven at highest power, what is the light output capabilities.
Osram SSL (451nm) = 630mW @350mA
Cree XTE (450nm-465nm)= 600mW @ 350mA
Epistar (450nm-455nm) = 420mW @ 350mA
Bridgelux: (445nm-465nm) = 480mW @ 350mA
So when comparing all the above chips, what you want to look at is the Radiant Flux of each chip at equal wavelength (nanometers) and equal current. As you can see a OSRAM SSL chip when driven at 350mA puts out about 1.5X the light over the Epistar at equal current and virtually similar voltage, meaning that if you are going for the best efficiency chip, the OSRAM would be the king..
Now none of this has to do with the "claimed Wattage" of the LED chips since now we are comparing apples to apples, (current). So Ideally when you are comparing LED diodes to each other, the BIN, the Brand, and the series chip is important to know so you can hit the data sheets and compare how good the chip is...
Now in relation to what puts out more "PAR" light, well since all of the above are within the PAR range of light, the OSRAM would put out the most par, followed by the CREE, then Bridgelux, then Epistar... even though measured in Millawatts vs Micromoles, we still can compare. So the chip that would put out the most PAR would be the OSRAM.
Now, no LED manufacture is going to recommend running the LED chip at MAX current, because the lifetime of the chip would suffer greatly, therefore for a 1000mA chip, typically you will see them run in the range around 500-700mA which will offer much greater efficiency but also get the brightness us growers need, while still ensuring that the light is going to last a good lifetime
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Now that is one way to look at LED chips when comparing, but also you want to look at the lumen Maintenance. Lumen Maintenance for any light source is the time that a chip is going to last and over that time, how much of the original light output is lost...
The data on this is hard to find, but typically a LED chip will have a LM-80 or LM95 rating along with a number of hours... for instance.
A chip with a LM-80 at 50,000 hours means that the chip is determined to last over 50,000 hours, but at 50,000 hours, the LED chip is only going to be putting out around 80% the original light...
A chip with a LM-95 at 100,000 hours means that the chip is determined to last over 100,000, but at 100,000 hours, the LED chip is only going to be putting out around 95% of the original light output....
So by using Lumen maintenance, you can tell how long a chip brand and series is going to last you...
So from what I can remember, typically a epistar chip is going to have a LM-80 rating of around 45,000 hours, a Cree XTE (white) around 88,000 hours, and OSRAM a LM-95 of around 100,000 hours... Meaning that an OSRAM chip is going to last about double that and then some over the Epistar, while maintaining its light output...
Now these figures are all subject to change based on the current the LED is run at, and the operating temperature and thermal management of the chips system. But these figures are good to compare when looking at individual chip brands.
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As you can see, there is a lot more that goes into LED chip comparisons and the general label "3w" or "5w" is pretty much meaningless when it comes to the actual data. The best is to request the actual Chip brand, type and BIN from the manufacture, and then hit the datasheets. If the manufacture wont give this information, then they may be hiding something. Many manufactures like to get "Brand name" chips like Cree or Osram, but they may buy the lowest BIN chip, therefore a reduced cost to the manufacture....
You may ask, what is a BIN. A BIN is a way that a LED chip manufacture sorts the chips by color/wavelength, as well as efficiency/brightness.
For instance lets look at CREE XTE royal blue chips... .These chips have BINS ranging from top bin, to lowest BIN in terms of brightness, and the difference is vastly large... So a top BIN Cree XTE royal blue chip will put out 625mW @ 350mA where a Lowest BIN Cree XTE royal blue will put out only 500mW which as you can see, you may be paying for the Cree name, but not the top BIN LED chip in that series. So to the manufacture, by using a low BIN Cree XTE, they can charge you for the name Cree but the difference in Chip price to them by going with a low BIN vs a top BIN could be the difference of could almost be $1.50 per chip, with top bins usually around $3.50 per chip, and low bins around $1.70 per chip... you as the consumer just see the name Cree and will pay the higher price, but in actuality you may not actually be getting that much more light than a cheaper chip like a to BIN Bridgelux chip which you probably could pick up for around $2.00 a chip....
So lesson to learn is always ask the manufacture for a BIN if you really want a true verification of what type of chips they use, and the quality of the chips used, which can also be used to justify the price. Many times a Manufacture will not give you this information and claim "its proprietary" but in my opinion thats just an excuse to hide the truth.
Hope this helps shine some light on how to compare LED's.
This is really dependent on a few things and also with HID. Really "penetration", the way I look at it is the range of acceptable light, and what I mean by this is at what distance can a light source penetrate into the canopy, keeping a PPFD of higher than 510micromoles. (flowering). So really this itself is dependent on the wattage of the light used, the reflector for the HID/or angle of the LED beams. For intstance if you take a 400w HID or a low wattage 400w LED light, the range at which this light will throw light that is higher than 510micromoles could only be about 1 1/2 feet away from the light,(hypothetically). Now if you take a 1000w HID or LED, the light is much more intense, so the "range of acceptable light" will be further away from the light source itself making it penetrate better than the lower wattage counterpart.. This is why I typically will recommend higher wattage lights (both HID or LED) for those that grow large monster plants, because that "throw" or "range of acceptable light" needs to be larger. For those that grow in a scrog or sea of green style, then its actually better to have a lot of smaller wattage lights placed in an array above the canopy, since with this grow style the plants only may be 1-2' high, so the range of acceptable light or "throw" doesn't need to be as great...
Beam angle of LED's and reflector type of HID's also is an infuence to this. A led with a tight Beam angle or a boxy direct downward type reflector are going to bunch up that light into a tighter beam of light, which will offer more intensity directly under the light, and will have more "throw" but will not cover a large area. LED's with wider angle lenses, COBs and HID bulbs with wide based reflectors will not have as much intensity underneath the light, or not as much throw, but will cover a greater area. These types of reflectors and/or LEDs are better used for a scrog/sea of green where super intensity and range aren't needed, but coverage would be.
Pretty much think of a flashlight with a adjustable beam, where you can make it into a spotlight, or a floodlight. The spotlight will have more penetration/throw/range of acceptable light but hardly cover a very large area, where as a floodlight setting will be the opposite. So really its not about LED or HID, its about the way the light is focused onto your grow area and the actual wattage used by the light
Ok ice.....let's move on.....lol, hey what watt diodes are in these bud masters? I have read where the 3 watts are most efficient even beating out the 5 watts as far as par compares to wattage? I suppose you could run a bunch of 5 watters at a lower wattage for longevity? I don't know you read and read on the net, but whose to say it is fact al these manufactures have same claim in different writing, that's why I'm hear following...,I love the fact we can see all these lights in action, and your tube videos really help put what these lights can do into practical applications......thanks again ice.......
The second part of your question is a bit tougher to answer... and I really don't have the answer your looking for but I will try to explain. So are you ready to get confused
Claimed "wattage" of a led chips is kind of a moot point label if you ask me because for instance OSRAM calls there SSL chips 1w on their website, however LED grow light manufactures call them 3w, and if you take the max current and voltage of an SSL chip you would get
OSRAM SSL: Osram calls these 1w chips, LED grow light companies call them 3w chips...
Blue 451nm = 3.25v x 1000mA = 3.25W MAX wattage
Red 660nm = 2.60V x 1000mA = 2.60W MAX wattage
Lets look at Epistar, which one of our sponsors calls them use 5w chips...
EPISTAR:
RED:
Blue: 3.5V x 1000mA= 3.5W
RED: 2.6V x 700mA = 1.82W
Now lets look at CREE XTE chips which Cree calls 5w chips (now these are at 1500mA)
Blue 3.5V x 1500mA = 5.25W
Cree XPE red (Cree calls these 2.5 watt chips)
RED 2.5V x 1000mA = 2.5 W chips...
So after looking at all these figures... .What does that tell us about a chip being called "5w" or "3W".... Absolutely nothing
Like when you look at Epistar and Osram, they both run at 1000mA, both have a max voltage of around 3.25-3.5, so theoretically they can both max out around 3.25 to 3.5w, however depending on the brand, they may be labeled as 3W or 5W chips... see what I mean, chip wattage classification is a moot point and really means nothing... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So when looking at LED chips, its best to get the actual chip used, the BIN rating, and then look at the data sheets because this is going to give you a good comparison between chips....for instance....
lets look at some blue chips in the 450-460nm range... Top BIN's. What we want to look at is the Radiant Flux of each chip, meaning when driven at highest power, what is the light output capabilities.
Osram SSL (451nm) = 630mW @350mA
Cree XTE (450nm-465nm)= 600mW @ 350mA
Epistar (450nm-455nm) = 420mW @ 350mA
Bridgelux: (445nm-465nm) = 480mW @ 350mA
So when comparing all the above chips, what you want to look at is the Radiant Flux of each chip at equal wavelength (nanometers) and equal current. As you can see a OSRAM SSL chip when driven at 350mA puts out about 1.5X the light over the Epistar at equal current and virtually similar voltage, meaning that if you are going for the best efficiency chip, the OSRAM would be the king..
Now none of this has to do with the "claimed Wattage" of the LED chips since now we are comparing apples to apples, (current). So Ideally when you are comparing LED diodes to each other, the BIN, the Brand, and the series chip is important to know so you can hit the data sheets and compare how good the chip is...
Now in relation to what puts out more "PAR" light, well since all of the above are within the PAR range of light, the OSRAM would put out the most par, followed by the CREE, then Bridgelux, then Epistar... even though measured in Millawatts vs Micromoles, we still can compare. So the chip that would put out the most PAR would be the OSRAM.
Now, no LED manufacture is going to recommend running the LED chip at MAX current, because the lifetime of the chip would suffer greatly, therefore for a 1000mA chip, typically you will see them run in the range around 500-700mA which will offer much greater efficiency but also get the brightness us growers need, while still ensuring that the light is going to last a good lifetime
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now that is one way to look at LED chips when comparing, but also you want to look at the lumen Maintenance. Lumen Maintenance for any light source is the time that a chip is going to last and over that time, how much of the original light output is lost...
The data on this is hard to find, but typically a LED chip will have a LM-80 or LM95 rating along with a number of hours... for instance.
A chip with a LM-80 at 50,000 hours means that the chip is determined to last over 50,000 hours, but at 50,000 hours, the LED chip is only going to be putting out around 80% the original light...
A chip with a LM-95 at 100,000 hours means that the chip is determined to last over 100,000, but at 100,000 hours, the LED chip is only going to be putting out around 95% of the original light output....
So by using Lumen maintenance, you can tell how long a chip brand and series is going to last you...
So from what I can remember, typically a epistar chip is going to have a LM-80 rating of around 45,000 hours, a Cree XTE (white) around 88,000 hours, and OSRAM a LM-95 of around 100,000 hours... Meaning that an OSRAM chip is going to last about double that and then some over the Epistar, while maintaining its light output...
Now these figures are all subject to change based on the current the LED is run at, and the operating temperature and thermal management of the chips system. But these figures are good to compare when looking at individual chip brands.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, there is a lot more that goes into LED chip comparisons and the general label "3w" or "5w" is pretty much meaningless when it comes to the actual data. The best is to request the actual Chip brand, type and BIN from the manufacture, and then hit the datasheets. If the manufacture wont give this information, then they may be hiding something. Many manufactures like to get "Brand name" chips like Cree or Osram, but they may buy the lowest BIN chip, therefore a reduced cost to the manufacture....
You may ask, what is a BIN. A BIN is a way that a LED chip manufacture sorts the chips by color/wavelength, as well as efficiency/brightness.
For instance lets look at CREE XTE royal blue chips... .These chips have BINS ranging from top bin, to lowest BIN in terms of brightness, and the difference is vastly large... So a top BIN Cree XTE royal blue chip will put out 625mW @ 350mA where a Lowest BIN Cree XTE royal blue will put out only 500mW which as you can see, you may be paying for the Cree name, but not the top BIN LED chip in that series. So to the manufacture, by using a low BIN Cree XTE, they can charge you for the name Cree but the difference in Chip price to them by going with a low BIN vs a top BIN could be the difference of could almost be $1.50 per chip, with top bins usually around $3.50 per chip, and low bins around $1.70 per chip... you as the consumer just see the name Cree and will pay the higher price, but in actuality you may not actually be getting that much more light than a cheaper chip like a to BIN Bridgelux chip which you probably could pick up for around $2.00 a chip....
So lesson to learn is always ask the manufacture for a BIN if you really want a true verification of what type of chips they use, and the quality of the chips used, which can also be used to justify the price. Many times a Manufacture will not give you this information and claim "its proprietary" but in my opinion thats just an excuse to hide the truth.
Hope this helps shine some light on how to compare LED's.
