Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spectrum

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

yeah but the savings wouldnt pan out because you would need to replace the Leds well before 10 years.

I mean i like the idea of LEDs for sure and was happy with what theu produced. But they are definately not practical for serious growers in my opinion. Cool for tent grows but nothing where multiple lights are needed. They are just too expensive. i didnt save a penny in power and i dont run air con.

If the panels came in at 300 or 400 pound i would be more inclined to use them. Hid light, digital ballast and reflector comes in at around 130 pounds. still need extraction no matter whether its for Leds or hps so dont save there either.

Just my 2 cents. But its personal preference.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Hey icemud

nice informative journal. i like the detail you get in there.

I wonder what your thoughts are on bigger grows with these panels?

i have spent the past year testing for a company. The lights are great, there is def promise for led panels. However the price of the panels make it completely unrealistic for a grow if any decent size in my opinion.

I think for tent grows and small hobby growers the panels are great as you only have to think about 1 or 2 panels. But a 5 x 5 metre room for example (which for me isnt a big space) would be costly to set up and wouldnt justify the cost.

Certainly from a commercial growers perspective i like to keep the cost of builds down as my overheads run into many thousands of pounds. I think until the panels can come in closer to the cost of hid lighting they will be a novelty item as it doesnt make sense to spend so much on a panel when there are cheaper alternatives that work.

My main gripe with LEDS was the thing about saving power. They didnt save me any at all. running 660w panels cost me the same as my HID lights and there was no difference in yield or quality. The plants showed diff characteristics under LEDS and i was certainly happy with the results but not enough to pay 1500 pounds per panel.

would like to hear what you think?

keep up the good work mate.

Hey Cultivator, Welcome

I think with growing, whatever light the grower chooses is the best option, whether it be LED, HID or other, and really the benefits can be looked at in many ways for each light...

I personally wouldn't say LED's are a novelty though.

LED's can last around 100,000 hours with no maintenance (osram chips, cheaper chips like Epistar usually will get about 40,000 hours max with 20% loss or more), HPS has to be changed yearly which costs in bulbs and time consumed changing the bulbs. A typical HPS bulb would need to be replace 22 times over the course of 100,000 hours. (10x if DE HPS)

I've seen LED's save 30% energy and still achieve the same yields as a side by side with HID. Now this may not be the typical results, but it can be done. (even at a 10% savings which is very possible in electric usage, thats hundreds of dollars in savings per light per year)

I've seen test results of HID vs LED in quality and lab results showed increases in 3% THC content and a huge increase of Terpene amounts as well as many more Terpenes when tested against HPS.

So really in terms of my opinion... go with what you think works. I choose LED because they are quiet, I don't have to accommodate for external ballasts, I don't have to replace bulbs every year, I don't have the fear of leaving for a few days thinking a fire may break out, and in terms of a power surge, LED's fire up instantly where many HPS bulbs need a 10-15 minute cooldown period which could influence the grow plus for me the buds are frostier and have more flavor. I also like the flexibility of LED's where they don't have to accommodate heavy bulky hoods to direct light and can be easily hung on angles or even sideways. But thats just my opinion and I think whatever works for you, then use it

I don't want to get into a LED vs HID debate though because this is a test grow journal (sponsored) by Budmaster and so I think whatever works for the growers personal interest, then that is the choice

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Great smoke report Ice! Tangie#3 sounds like real winner! That smell and flavour though dang I have to admit your description doesn't sound all that appealing lol. The high sounds amazing and must make up for the smell hehehe. Great job as always.

Its definitely a very very different smell and terp profile than the others, which is why I really like it I may still decide to take a cutting of the purple pheno because that probably was the 2nd best thus far... still not sure though Yea something about asphalt garlic smell definitely doesn't sound very appealing, but wow is it potent

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Grand job if you have some top flight produce with that much kick! My own tolerance seems to have hit a point where any smoke just mellows me a touch! I think I need to have a break lol. Anyway best of buds my friend!

Hey Light Addict Thanks my friend yea my tolerance was very high for a long time, but with this last job I was working I was really only smoking on the weekends and so after a couple weeks of this pattern, I definitely noticed my tolerance went way down.. a break hear and there is definitely a good way to lower that tolerance

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Mmm BudMaster is expensive mainly due to...

1. Made in the UK a slightly higher wage cost to other cheaper parts of the world & yes it could be made in other parts of the world etc with same spec's at a lower cost !

2. Led's used at the higher end of the market.

3. BM panels are a Modular Design which means each little square cluster of leds has a single individual driver controlling current to the module, drivers are expensive & ya got quite a few of those in BM panels.

Now the driver is the most likely the weakest link meaning the first part to break down / die over a period of use well before the leds fail !

Most other panels use a single a driver if that dies the whole panels go's down... hence a better design with BM


Over a period of one year flowering 12/12 constantly well lets just call that 12/12 over a 30 day month X 12 that is 4320 hours of use, then look at Warranty given by company of such panel it might give ya little hint about some thing ! ( driver being an issue )

So in theory a 50k life span panel can last 10 years or at least several years before led degrades with light out put, but not sure if the driver will last that long ?


Ok so we have seen aprox 18 months increased use off led panels on the forums & how many break downs do we know off ? not that many apart from some cheap panels problems...


NOTE

This is not meant to be a debate subject so please respect Icemuds journal

I'm just trying to point out some minor details which could of been over looked ?

 

[Light Addict]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Well I can say that BM drivers are going to be switched out soon as they have some in testing at the mo!

 

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

im not starting a debate?

I was merely asking opinion. I think LEDs are great. The panels i used are fantastic. I was more wondering on the reality of panels being used for larger grows. Ofcourse there are costs on both sides. Not many members here grow more than a few lights so of course the LEDs can be a little more cost effective. Id be highly skeptical of an LED panel lasting 10 years without replacing any parts or any light degridation. Also remember what happens in control tests dont always transfer across to real life
most growers are average at best and fail to get the best out of a grow no matter what they use.

Anyway Icemud its a good informative journal. I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers just thought id see opinion.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Ya cool Cultivator

Surprised to see ya after along time no see & i hope all is well in your neck of the woods.


I'm quite interested in BM panels myself & Ice is putting a good show together...

Mmm on a personal level ye leds will more likely even out but on larger a scale i'll have sit down to do the maths on more than a few things... other wise i may sit back & think about training plants or Co2.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

im not starting a debate?

I was merely asking opinion. I think LEDs are great. The panels i used are fantastic. I was more wondering on the reality of panels being used for larger grows. Ofcourse there are costs on both sides. Not many members here grow more than a few lights so of course the LEDs can be a little more cost effective. Id be highly skeptical of an LED panel lasting 10 years without replacing any parts or any light degridation. Also remember what happens in control tests dont always transfer across to real life
most growers are average at best and fail to get the best out of a grow no matter what they use.

Anyway Icemud its a good informative journal. I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers just thought id see opinion.

Yea I just put the disclaimer in so a debate didn't start as the HID/LED thing can get out of hand so I wanted to put the note in there before it happened, but definitely wasn't directed towards you, just more an in general statement you are definitely more than welcome to ask questions

I value everyone's input, questions and experience

 

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Yeah i been away from the forum for quite a while. Had some life issues get in the way. But im living elsewhere in europe now with very relaxed laws on weed and some time on my hands so started journalling and interacting again.

I think in time LEDs will definately be the way to go. The price just has to come down to be serious competition. I understand the pricing as my grow partner has built and designed his own panels and through testing got a fab product. yet i wouldnt buy them even at cost price. Tbe BMs look decent but id like to see them in use on a big scale. even a 6 x 6 metre room to see how they really stack up. The reason i say that is its pretty easy to grow a dozen plants well in tents but it gets a little trickier as you start to scale things up. id be interested to see LED 1000w equivalent perform in a larger room.

 

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Of course icemud. Its cool mate. Your journal, your rules

Im past the debate as im a believer but explained my reasoning. I will just follow along and see how you get on....

 

[NematodeNate]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

im not starting a debate?

I was merely asking opinion. I think LEDs are great. The panels i used are fantastic. I was more wondering on the reality of panels being used for larger grows. Ofcourse there are costs on both sides. Not many members here grow more than a few lights so of course the LEDs can be a little more cost effective. Id be highly skeptical of an LED panel lasting 10 years without replacing any parts or any light degridation. Also remember what happens in control tests dont always transfer across to real life
most growers are average at best and fail to get the best out of a grow no matter what they use.

Anyway Icemud its a good informative journal. I wasnt trying to ruffle feathers just thought id see opinion.

Hey guys sorry one more thing.....I believe LEDs penetrate better into the canopy letting you get great product lower down in a smaller but taller footprint?

Ok ice.....let's move on.....lol, hey what watt diodes are in these bud masters? I have read where the 3 watts are most effiecent even beating out the 5 watts as far as par compares to wattage? I suppose you could run a bunch of 5 watters at a lower wattage for longevity? I don't know you read and read on the net, but whose to say it is fact al these manufactures have same claim in different writing, that's why I'm hear following...,I love the fact we can see all these lights in action, and your tube videos really help put what these lights can do into practical applications......thanks again ice.......

 

[Light Addict]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Cult once I'm moved in a cpl of months I'll have a whole room to play in and will have the ability to run my LED on a big scale, using the 1200 GOD for the main lamp. Although I'd be running another 6-8 lesser BM lamps also

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Mmm BudMaster is expensive mainly due to...

1. Made in the UK a slightly higher wage cost to other cheaper parts of the world & yes it could be made in other parts of the world etc with same spec's at a lower cost !

2. Led's used at the higher end of the market.

3. BM panels are a Modular Design which means each little square cluster of leds has a single individual driver controlling current to the module, drivers are expensive & ya got quite a few of those in BM panels.

Now the driver is the most likely the weakest link meaning the first part to break down / die over a period of use well before the leds fail !

Most other panels use a single a driver if that dies the whole panels go's down... hence a better design with BM


Over a period of one year flowering 12/12 constantly well lets just call that 12/12 over a 30 day month X 12 that is 4320 hours of use, then look at Warranty given by company of such panel it might give ya little hint about some thing ! ( driver being an issue )

So in theory a 50k life span panel can last 10 years or at least several years before led degrades with light out put, but not sure if the driver will last that long ?


Ok so we have seen aprox 18 months increased use off led panels on the forums & how many break downs do we know off ? not that many apart from some cheap panels problems...


NOTE

This is not meant to be a debate subject so please respect Icemuds journal

I'm just trying to point out some minor details which could of been over looked ?

Good points about drivers Fuzzy

That is one area that I have not as researched in but definitely need to know more For drivers there is something called MTBF or Mean Time Between Failures which is the average rating for a driver's lifetime. The Budmasters host MARL drivers I believe which are rated to exceed 100,000 hours, but as with LED diodes, it is dependent on thermal cooling efficiency as well.

With LED and HID lights there is a metric called lumen maintenance which is a projected rating for a certain light source to maintain its output and generally you might see it listed as 60,000 hours LM-80 which means withing 60,000 hours, that light will lose 20% of its light output or it will maintain 80% of its original light at that timeframe. Generally LED's carry this rating. With HID bulbs you typically will see a PEAK LUMEN rating and a MEDIAN LUMEN rating. Peak lumens is the amount of light a bulb will initially output when brand new, and Median lumens means the amount of lumens the bulb will put out at 50% of its life or half way through the recommended lifetime

Just like LED diodes and chips, drivers can come from quality companies or cheap budget companies and so the suggested lifetime can vary greatly.

In a study for LED streetlighting and luminaires, about 52% of failures occured due to the drivers, 7% due to the driver circuits, 31% due to the housing of the led light itself (streetlights in weather conditions) and only about 10% due to the LED's themselves. So definitely the choke point of any light seems to mostly be the driver. (This study was based on the data from 5,400 different lights.)

It seems the main difference in quality drivers vs cheap unreliable drivers is in the actual components used, especially the capacitors in relation to thermal management. From what I read, each 10 degree raise in tempurature, cuts a capacitors lifetime down by half. LED's are also the same, the cooler they run, the life time is much longer.

It seems that with HID ballasts, very much the same as LED drivers in that the capacitors are the weak point, so generally if kept cool and using good quality components one could expect 100,000 hours out of a HID ballast as well as a LED driver but again, heat and cheap parts can affect this

So with that being said, Modular built Led's with quick connect wiring seem to be key when looking in long term...

 

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

be interested to see my friend. i will follow.


"Hey guys sorry one more thing.....I believe LEDs penetrate better into the canopy letting you get great product lower down in a smaller but taller footprint? "

honestly i will leave the debate but i guarantee i can match any space with hid lighting. Light is important but there are lots of other factors at play. Its not like im saying BM or LED in general dont work. Im saying they do work and i like them. My point is more whether they really are practical. my average room build is £6000, ofcourse thats everything not just lights. my room build would treble if i used LED, i guess thats my point.

Sorry icemud i feel like im invading your thread now. I will leave it there buddy.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Well I can say that BM drivers are going to be switched out soon as they have some in testing at the mo!

Good to know

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Yeah i been away from the forum for quite a while. Had some life issues get in the way. But im living elsewhere in europe now with very relaxed laws on weed and some time on my hands so started journalling and interacting again.

I think in time LEDs will definately be the way to go. The price just has to come down to be serious competition. I understand the pricing as my grow partner has built and designed his own panels and through testing got a fab product. yet i wouldnt buy them even at cost price. Tbe BMs look decent but id like to see them in use on a big scale. even a 6 x 6 metre room to see how they really stack up. The reason i say that is its pretty easy to grow a dozen plants well in tents but it gets a little trickier as you start to scale things up. id be interested to see LED 1000w equivalent perform in a larger room.

I'm debating the same thing right now with myself. I love growing and what I have been doing, but also need to make some life changes and not yet sure on where, or how this will happen. Hopefully I can continue to do what I love, but I may need to "take a break" too in the coming months but there is still too much to decide to know for sure. Good that you got to a place with laxed laws and more freedom to enjoy your gardening habits good to hear things are going well for you Cultivator

Check out youtube for some large scale comparisons. I would have posted them here but they are not Budmaster products so I have to be respectful of the sponsor, but if you type in "LED vs HID norcal grow" and you will see one large scale comparison. Another comparison on a smaller scale was done by a very well known member of a different forum, Greengenes and shows the comparison between HID and LED in terms of weight, THC and terpenes with lab results. I would have posted them here but because its sponsored I can't post conflicting brand information but you should be able to find them easily as they are some of the first results that pull up

Really its all about planning the grow area out for maximum light efficiency. Mapping the PPFD figures over the grow area, using these numbers based on grow style, plant height and type of grow (large plants, sea of green) all would be factors that I would consider when calculating the amount of lights needed (HID or LED) because each type of light has different things its good at

I think when used correctly, any light source can do amazing, I have even seen some CFL grows on a smaller scale push out huge monsters

Cheers to your new situation my friend! and good to have you back around the forums

 

[Cultivator]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

For sure mate.

If you have a good understanding of growing then u can make anything work. A good gardener doesnt blame the tools....

We all need a break sometimes. It can help recharge the batteries....

 

[drcannabi]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Sure is nice to be part of a community that can keep a convo like this civil! I'm not sure there is another mmj forum that is as mature as 420 mag.

All I know is that there is a little truth to everything I've heard here.

 

[arteekay]

Re: Icemud LED Grow Featuring The All New Budmaster COB Technology - White Full Spect

Sure is nice to be part of a community that can keep a convo like this civil! I'm not sure there is another mmj forum that is as mature as 420 mag.

All I know is that there is a little truth to everything I've heard here.

Godwin's law would have already been enacted by now just about anywhere else!

Love this place.