Graytail's Cupwinners in High Brix Soil - 4x4 - 600W HPS - Perpetual

I have a few pics of my cup cuttings in my last Photo Shoot. I think I actually see new growth but no root bumps.
 
B A R said:
I have a few pics of my cup cuttings in my last Photo Shoot. I think I actually see new growth but no root bumps.
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I went and looked. I have no F'n idea why this worked for me. A few weeks ago, I simply forgot a cut in the cup and after a few days, just dipped it in powder and stuck it in the soil and it rooted almost immediately. It didn't have any nubs - wasn't in the water for long.

So this time, I had all these extra cuts, shrugged, cut 'em into pieces and stuck 'em in a couple cups.

I've been following your masterful clone-killing record, and as you know, it um ... depends. :cheesygrinsmiley: You're way past the dry/wet thing, so that's not it. You know to keep them dimly lit and humid, so that's not it. I don't remember your water. Is it RO or something for the clones? Chloromines could mess up your chances.

I've had plenty of failures I don't mention, including a couple of heartbreaking ones - lost my JD pheno. But I'm still above 75%. Last month, I had a bad run with Carnival clones. 3 out of 4 went limp the next day, no reason I could find. So I did kinda what Ludweed mentioned - just powdered another cut, yanked out the limp one and put the new one in its place. The second ones all took. Meanwhile I stuck all the others in water.

What I like about this is that I can start some cuts and let good stems idle while I see if they take. And being able to cut them into several pieces gives me all the supply I need to get one good one that takes. :cheesygrinsmiley:

[Edit] How about heat? I discovered they really like to be warm - like 80ish ...
 
Hey yeah I'm forgetting u are running kit soil, I was gonna say a sm amount of blood meal, and a lot of EWC, but the kit soil is above my head, I don't wanna screw ya up. Respectfully sitting back and watching now
 
Graytail said:
Good question. I'm a little confused about the amendment requirements. I, of course, add the initial amendment during the cook, and topdress with more a couple weeks into bloom, as the directions say. But when I dump the old soil back for a recook, I add another portion of amendment, with 3 pounds of EWC per pot, and a bunch of Roots and trimmings as I take them. That bin keeps getting added to until it's full, and then I put it on the bottom of the stack o' bins until its turn comes up.

But ... I'm not sure that's correct. If I'm reading things right, others don't add amendment when they recycle the soil. So ... do I have too much amendment? If I do, it hasn't become apparent yet.

So, to answer the question, I'll topdress/recharge at the scheduled time in bloom, but I'm a tad concerned about the mineral levels so I'll leave this one as it is. I'm pretty sure my humic levels are good, so no need for EWC at this point, the biota and mycos should be numerous and happy.
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For my part, I'd like to see you just carry on like you normally would without messing with anything extra. Less variables. Of course, it ain't my plant or yield, either. :)
 
... it occurs to me that I should probably hit the repot experiment with some De-stress pronto, to help signal the biota that the new plant needs different stuff.
 
Graytail said:
Good question. I'm a little confused about the amendment requirements. I, of course, add the initial amendment during the cook, and topdress with more a couple weeks into bloom, as the directions say. But when I dump the old soil back for a recook, I add another portion of amendment, with 3 pounds of EWC per pot, and a bunch of Roots and trimmings as I take them. That bin keeps getting added to until it's full, and then I put it on the bottom of the stack o' bins until its turn comes up.

But ... I'm not sure that's correct. If I'm reading things right, others don't add amendment when they recycle the soil. So ... do I have too much amendment? If I do, it hasn't become apparent yet.

So, to answer the question, I'll topdress/recharge at the scheduled time in bloom, but I'm a tad concerned about the mineral levels so I'll leave this one as it is. I'm pretty sure my humic levels are good, so no need for EWC at this point, the biota and mycos should be numerous and happy.
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I can tell you how I did it and maybe it'll help.

I added amendment for the 3rd run (after the 2nd was complete) and added it again for the 7th(after the 6th is complete). Every time I dump pots I add a handful of the "root's" product (I buy it in bulk).

Same thing when I add leaf, I throw a handful on top and cover it. I have been using roots as my recharge too. That and some transplant make for some really happy plants mid-bloom.

I don't go to crazy when I add tea to the soil in the bin either. Just enough to get it working and I leave it alone.

To me you can't have enough "root's" in your soil. Buy 10 lbs and start working it in...SLOWLY. You'll have soil built closer to mine.
 
Graytail said:
Ah. Yes, I see.

That was the first thing I thought of, but this soil isn't "used up" in any significant way, I don't think. It has plenty of minerals and biota, so they'll continue to break down minerals into NPK and such, so that source shouldn't be depleted. And we still feed with this soil. Energy is just a good fishy calcium nitrate, and the Transplant drench has sulphates/phosphates, etc. I considered a remedial dose of Energy to raise the N as you suggest, but I'm not sure why there wouldn't be plenty as it is. One week ago, these roots were alive and coated with mycos and the biota was producing 18 brix for the Carnival. The soil was perfect for a blooming plant - maybe not perfect for a veg plant. But if I understand this HB method properly, healthy HB soil is healthy HB soil - we adjust for veg and bloom with the foliars and drenches.

... I think ... :cheesygrinsmiley:
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Yeah bro just hit it with some transplant, give it some water a few times, then energy. It should be fine. Transplant is designed to work with the roots product. Its a nice transition for the plant, gentle if you will. Spray with half strength stress if you need to daily. Otherwise treat it like any other transplant bro ;)
 
Curso said:
I can tell you how I did it and maybe it'll help.

I added amendment for the 3rd run (after the 2nd was complete) and added it again for the 7th(after the 6th is complete). Every time I dump pots I add a handful of the "root's" product (I buy it in bulk).

Same thing when I add leaf, I throw a handful on top and cover it. I have been using roots as my recharge too. That and some transplant make for some really happy plants mid-bloom.

I don't go to crazy when I add tea to the soil in the bin either. Just enough to get it working and I leave it alone.

To me you can't have enough "root's" in your soil. Buy 10 lbs and start working it in...SLOWLY. You'll have soil built closer to mine.
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Then my soil is seriously over-mineralized compared to yours. I'm coming to the end of three full cycles, and I've added amendment mid-bloom AND at recycle, for every pot. I've used three kits of amendment for three cycles. :cheesygrinsmiley:

What confuses me is the recharge at mid-bloom. What's the point if the mineral load hasn't been reduced or consumed in the first two months? Why would we add more amendment? So I reasoned that it would require more amendment again after bloom. But your plants look better than mine, so clearly the soil only requires as much as you've given it, which is roughly a third of what I've added. At the same time, I just turned out a 18 brix plant with this soil. Argh. :scratchinghead: I only have three pots worth of amendment and recharge left, so I suppose I can space those out a bit and see how the soil performs with just Roots.

It's really hard to screw this kit up, isn't it? We both turn out some pretty good produce, and there's a serious variation in our soils. I've been considering adding a bale of ProMix to help dilute residual salts - I probably should do that.
 
The recharge is because of leeching. It's important.

Just cut your soil with some virgin promix and you'll be perfect. Yes...it's hard to royally screw up and 18 brix is great!
This is like early airplane flight: 2 wings, 3 wings, dihedral, polyhedral? We're learning....but we're flying, not crashing.
 
Hm, would it be accurate to say that the amendment creates a mineral-balanced soil and Roots maintains it? In other words, Roots is the product that restores the minerals that the plant consumes. Is the amendment more of an initial, remedial thing? And if the amendment leaches out during veg, it'll leach out just as fast during bloom, won't it? Then we'd need to add more again at recycle.

My thinking was that the plant will consume the minerals we add, ergo, we have to add more amendment. But if that's what the Roots is for, then I understand how the initial amendment is enough. The amendment corrects the initial mineral balance in the soil, the plant consumes what it needs, Roots resupplies it?

Soil minerals must be restored somehow, and in the correct balance.

These products were designed to be used after testing the soil each new season, I understand, so maybe it hasn't really been addressed in the way I think it has.

[Edit] I could answer my own questions if I just find a way to squeeze $50 from my old crusty, miserly fingers for a soil test. :laughtwo:
 
Man I thought I had this soil recycling theory and tech down pat, but shit maybe I don't.

Maybe the question I haven't asked is, after which runs should we NOT ad any ammendment?

My running theory, and last time I put it out there it was received with mixed reviews, was:

Virgin promix + kit = 1st run

1st run + kit = 2nd run

2nd run + some extra promix + different (3rd run) amendment kit = 3rd run


If this isn't correct, at which stage am I supposed to leave out the amendment?
 
tavosvo said:
Man I thought I had this soil recycling theory and tech down pat, but shit maybe I don't.

Maybe the question I haven't asked is, after which runs should we NOT ad any ammendment?

My running theory, and last time I put it out there it was received with mixed reviews, was:

Virgin promix + kit = 1st run

1st run + kit = 2nd run

2nd run + some extra promix + different (3rd run) amendment kit = 3rd run


If this isn't correct, at which stage am I supposed to leave out the amendment?
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You're doing it the way I do it Tav. I'm always watching Curso and learning from him as well. The only thing I'd do is add some EWC after each run and cut back on foliars during the second and third run.

I'm still using new soil after the second run and taking the "3rd run" soil and using that to make my "rescue soil." That's what I'm adding all the trimmings and Roots to and I'm top dressing with it.

Don't worry if you haven't got it all figured out yet....I sure don't. We're supposed to be outdoors, or in raised beds getting the soil tested every fall. Container growing is different and we're learning as we go.

My "go to" soil for new strains and important stuff is ALWAYS first run soil, because I know it's exactly right.
 
Doc Bud said:
You're doing it the way I do it Tav. I'm always watching Curso and learning from him as well. The only thing I'd do is add some EWC after each run and cut back on foliars during the second and third run.

I'm still using new soil after the second run and taking the "3rd run" soil and using that to make my "rescue soil." That's what I'm adding all the trimmings and Roots to and I'm top dressing with it.

Don't worry if you haven't got it all figured out yet....I sure don't. We're supposed to be outdoors, or in raised beds getting the soil tested every fall. Container growing is different and we're learning as we go.

My "go to" soil for new strains and important stuff is ALWAYS first run soil, because I know it's exactly right.
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Guys I still don't have it figured out. I am treating my tub of soil like a finely clarified chicken stock that is about to be a soup of some sort. This just happens to be cannabis soup, shit I am making for my plants to have a good diet. I have no idea how, but the approach seems to be working for me. Humus, my plants seem to love my humus....LOL
 
Here's another way to look at how I am reusing the soil. I thought long and hard about what to do with my "waste" like I said before I didn't want to leave it out for Otto the garbage man. So I looked at the circle of life, there is no wrong way to complete it. Just that it gets completed. Soil feeds the plant, the plant drops leaves they decompose and feed the soil and the cycle continues. So all I am doing is giving the soil back what they don't get in container growing. This works because there is no animal waste in our soil. If there is animal waste well...You can't really reuse shit, well not successfully indoors at least. Nature, just let her be herself and good things happen.
 
Doc Bud said:
Don't worry if you haven't got it all figured out yet....I sure don't. We're supposed to be outdoors, or in raised beds getting the soil tested every fall. Container growing is different and we're learning as we go.
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Outdoor minerals run out eventually, and nitrogen gets flushed by the rain, which also supplies it by the way especially during thunderstorms. Then, phosphorus uptaking mechanism is a little bit simplified by temperature, humidity and abundance of microorganisms. Potassium actually is a bigger problem, and needs to be supplied every year. Much harder to balance initial PH though if you're growing in a certain kind of soil. Also, faster root development is usually enough to cure all micronutrient imbalances before they happen. Then, there's constant recycling of NPK when leaves fall down from the trees, bushes drop their flowers and weeds start to decompose. If natural vegetation is abundant, you're gonna get at least 1" of fresh organic matter after every season, which makes for natural compost and homw for mycos and other microlife. Indoor this processes are impossible to copy 100% and thus all the problems.
 
conradino23 said:
Outdoor minerals run out eventually, and nitrogen gets flushed by the rain, which also supplies it by the way especially during thunderstorms. Then, phosphorus uptaking mechanism is a little bit simplified by temperature, humidity and abundance of microorganisms. Potassium actually is a bigger problem, and needs to be supplied every year. Much harder to balance initial PH though if you're growing in a certain kind of soil. Also, faster root development is usually enough to cure all micronutrient imbalances before they happen. Then, there's constant recycling of NPK when leaves fall down from the trees, bushes drop their flowers and weeds start to decompose. If natural vegetation is abundant, you're gonna get at least 1" of fresh organic matter after every season, which makes for natural compost and homw for mycos and other microlife. Indoor this processes are impossible to copy 100% and thus all the problems.
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If you call what we're doing "problems".....yeah, all the problems. :thumb:

And potassium is a big problem, especially if you add it. pH is easy with all the rock powders. And it's only NITRATES that get flushed by the rain...same as watering indoors.

The main difference is that outdoors or in raised beds the soil is tested every year and broadcasts and feeding schedules are designed post soil test.
 
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