Graytail's Cupwinners in High Brix Soil - 4x4 - 600W HPS - Perpetual

[PeeJay]

I've been noticing a lot lately that new growers are scared of topping because it's "high stress." It makes me giggle because many of the advanced low stress techniques are much harder on a plant than topping and providing some manual guidance - without getting into the heavy bondage. Don't know what others who've been at it a while think about that...

I've also come to the conclusion that I need to use available vertical space because I don't have a large growing footprint to spread things out in when keeping things down extra low. Around 8 branches throwing out colas yields ~ 2 oz dried bud pretty quickly when the plants are 2-3 footers.

 

[Graytail]

I saw your post about that on another journal and almost piped up. I agree completely. Earlier in my journal I documented the growth difference between two JD clones - topped one, LSTed the other. I do weekly updates, and it's clear that the topped one grew faster and was bigger when they went into flower. Oddly enough, though, their eventual yields were almost identical.

When I got my perpetual rolling, I was surprised and a little annoyed that I wasn't getting much stretch. While it's somewhat strain dependant, I eventually noticed that the plants with the most training stretched the least, relatively speaking. Yup, LST is a misnomer. It's as stressful as anything else.

Heheh, I'm always a little appalled seeing tiny little plants all tied into unnatural positions. I'm thinking ... ok, but ... wouldn't you rather see them ... grow?

 

[Dennise]

Hey Gray... pop over to the couch please. I posted some pics for ya.... Was hoping the storm you referred to would just jump right over us but it is arriving now so you might get some better storm shots in a bit. Kinda hope not cause they are taking twirly things and stuff and the skies are starting to look kinda narly... Any who they are there....

 

[Graytail]

Ya, twirly clouds we can do without. I once stood a quarter mile from an overhead rotating wall cloud - dark gray, sculpted sides like carved whipped cream - and it was the most awesome display of nature I've personally witnessed. It was "right there" in the sky. 5 minutes later, it dumped enough water to swamp the streets 2 feet deep. Fortunately for myself and a whole bunch of other people, the twisty part fell apart.

I can still feel the goosebumps. *shiver*

 

[Graytail]

I've also come to the conclusion that I need to use available vertical space because I don't have a large growing footprint to spread things out in when keeping things down extra low. Around 8 branches throwing out colas yields ~ 2 oz dried bud pretty quickly when the plants are 2-3 footers.

I was rereading some of my thread, and this resonated. I've been keeping height measurements of all my plants over the months (have 'em graphed - I'm a numbers wonk. ) I was checking growth rates vs training, but it also reminded me of something I had dismissed awhile ago. My numbers show that I get roughly a double for stretch, the way I train. Actually, that's not bad for a plant with a dozen or more tops. They've been going into 12/12 at about 12 inches and finish at about 24 inches. I let a couple go to 14 inches and yep, they finished at 28 inches. Kinda cool - not much deviation from the mean.

But, since I don't really care about yield, other than for pride, I'm better off finishing my plants earlier, rather than letting them veg until they're "ripe" so to speak. Here's the significant thing: When mine go into flower, they're growing at 3-4 inches a week with multiple tops. In one week, the plant will add 6-8 eventual inches of height and budsites. Two weeks would get me 12-16 more finished inches, which would more than double the volume of my canopy. This isn't news to me - but because I don't need yield, it's not important to me. I'd have an issue with width, so I'd have to run fewer strains in addition to letting them veg for another 2 weeks. Yield would be significantly better overall, but I'd have to go from 6 gallon pots to 10 if I allow plants that large.

I hadn't really thought about how much our grows are tailored to our own situations. Like you, I have all kinds of extra height that I don't use. I should probably think about ways to use it. But I'm running 30 watts/sqft, so I get nervous about a deeper canopy. LEDs would solve that, but meh, I'd rather spend those bucks on a better reflector and some good beans.

... ok, and this is what happens I guess if I mix Tangerine Dream and Jamaican Dream and forget how many times I loaded the pipe ...

 

[PakaloloHawaii]

Very interesting stuff there gray. I'm in the middle of a personal training vs yield debate. This round I am mainlining my plants for 8 colas. I'm thinking I might go for 16 tops instead next round, but can't really decide yet. The 8 cola plant I have stretched a bit more than double so far and is still going and is making me wish I topped it for 16. It's sativa dom though so I expected it in a way, in the future will likely do any other sativas with 16 tops. Next round is indica dom, huckleberry kush..wondering if 8 or 16 will work better...

 

[Graytail]

Very interesting stuff there gray. I'm in the middle of a personal training vs yield debate. This round I am mainlining my plants for 8 colas. I'm thinking I might go for 16 tops instead next round, but can't really decide yet. The 8 cola plant I have stretched a bit more than double so far and is still going and is making me wish I topped it for 16. It's sativa dom though so I expected it in a way, in the future will likely do any other sativas with 16 tops. Next round is indica dom, huckleberry kush..wondering if 8 or 16 will work better...

The full sativas I've run have definitely stretched more, but that's mostly because they took their own sweet time setting pistils. The hybrids have all been pretty close to the norm.

I have a feeling it all has something to do with hormones. In time, we'll figure out how to set them up for the change in light cycle (and spectrum). If I want more stretch, the simplest thing may be to go to bigger pots - by the time mine hit flower, they're full, and that must have an impact on root hormones and foliar growth. ... Or I have that backwards. Lots of roots are good.

More education is required, I fear.

My experience with the number of tops is that the yield isn't affected significantly. The plant will produce what it can in the time we give it, and we can distribute that production by training, so fewer tops will yield bigger colas and fewer nugs. But similar weight. More skilled growers than I, already know this stuff I imagine. I'm sure I could get another 20% out of mine with better management.

 

[sir grow alot]

Some great info here thanks for sharing!

ive been on the fence about cloning straight into the soil like you did here but now its ON!!

THANKS FOR THAT!

 

[Graytail]

Carnival is coming right along. I'm still disappointed in the trichs but she looks like she has at least another week in her, so that'll help. Brix levels recovered though - back up to 14 this week.

Carnival - 115 days old - 52 days 12/12 - 43 since pistils - brix 14/14

Grapefruit, on the other hand, lost brix, down to 7/8 now. But the flowers look pretty darned good and there's still another 3 weeks to go. I just finished the Cat switch and I'm going to go twice with just Trans/Water before added Energy again. I suspect this soil is overenergized as it is. It's just beginning to grow new calyxes after the drench, which is a good sign. I was prepared to see the Cat drench go bad on this one. So the next week will be instructive.

Grapefruit - 116 days old - 41 days 12/12 - 30 days since pistils - brix 7/8

WP2 also had a nice recovery in brix - back to 11/12 from 8/9.

WP2 - 110 days old - 28 days 12/12 - 18 days since pistils - brix 11/12

SLH2 is hangin in there. It'll look much better in another week. I love the tight compact buds on this strain.

SLH2 - 110 days old - 21 days 12/12 - 13 days since pistils - brix 11/12

Here's the first Carnival cut just barely showing pistils. Nice color on this one and brix popped up to 14.

Carn1 - 71 days old - 7 days 12/12 - brix 14/15

The second cut is a week behind - went into 12/12 yeasterday at 16 inches.

Carn2 - 71 days old - brix 11/11

And the first seed from my pollinated purple Panama, also 16 inches, also went into 12/12 yesterday

Panama Seed - 58 days - brix 11/13

Green Love Potion is a vigorous one - recovered from the topping AND the botched training, and is taller than it was before I so rudely interrupted it.

Green Love Potion - 42 days old - brix 8/8

 

[Doc Bud]

Graytail......your plants are so damn gorgeous.....seriously man, looking really good! Must be some nice smoke.

 

[Graytail]

Graytail......your plants are so damn gorgeous.....seriously man, looking really good! Must be some nice smoke.

Thanks, man! Heheh, I have to admit that I think the same thing. I was taking a closer look at the last couple weeks pics, and they really look good - especially the ones just going into flower - fabulous color! I've been running a recycle program like Curso's and the bin soil is really alive.

I have this Utopia Haze that finished at 18 brix and I can't even describe it. I need to post a smoke report and I can't even describe it, Doc! Dunno - it's like pot should be, and the other stuff is a pale imitation. The best smoke comes from the highest brix plants, in my limited experience.

 

[PeeJay]

Carnival is bulking up big time It's amazing watching all the different strains roll through that 4x4, Gray. You've got your own private dispensary shopping experience each and every time you decide to have a smoke. Very, very impressive.

 

[Dennise]

All I ever have for your journal is WOW..... Just beautiful as always Gray....

 

[PeeJay]

Gray, is your 4x4 flower space a tent or a space you constructed? I was looking for pics of the flower space and couldn't find any. Right now you have Carnival, Grapefruit, WP2, SLH2 and Carn1 + Carn 2 in the flower space. I'd really like to see how that fits into your space.

I'm going to get rid of my dinky cabinet and upgrade to a 4x4 tent. I'll put a board on top of the tent and vent out the top into a tote of clothes - use the edge of the board to install hooks and wrap the tent in a decorative curtain (same stealth measures I currently use.) Since I already emulate your training methods a shot of the inside of your grow area will help me visualize what I can do running a 3 in veg, 3 in flower perpetual.

 

[Graytail]

Carnival is bulking up big time It's amazing watching all the different strains roll through that 4x4, Gray. You've got your own private dispensary shopping experience each and every time you decide to have a smoke. Very, very impressive.

Heheh, it's true and I get a great big kick out of it! I have 6 strains in jars by my chair, and I when I want a lift I look 'em over and decide what I'd like - maybe some SLH for a nice zingy rush, and then moderate it with some Panama when the rush finishes ... or some tasty grape soda Jamaican Dream followed by a mild sativa like Tangerine Dream for a little extra lift. I have another 5 strains stored away in jars, and another 3 coming. In the next year I want to run another 15 strains.

All I ever have for your journal is WOW..... Just beautiful as always Gray....

Thank you, Dennise!

Gray, is your 4x4 flower space a tent or a space you constructed? I was looking for pics of the flower space and couldn't find any. Right now you have Carnival, Grapefruit, WP2, SLH2 and Carn1 + Carn 2 in the flower space. I'd really like to see how that fits into your space.

I'm going to get rid of my dinky cabinet and upgrade to a 4x4 tent. I'll put a board on top of the tent and vent out the top into a tote of clothes - use the edge of the board to install hooks and wrap the tent in a decorative curtain (same stealth measures I currently use.) Since I already emulate your training methods a shot of the inside of your grow area will help me visualize what I can do running a 3 in veg, 3 in flower perpetual.

You forgot PanaSeed - 7 in there right now.

It's a concrete block root cellar, 4x4.75 with 81 inches of height, so virtually identical to a 4x4 tent.

I can fit 6 of my size plants in there easily and can run up to 9 if I have to. I have square pots that are 14.5 inches wide, so I can fit three in a 4 foot space, for a total of 9, which would give each 2 sqft. I usually have 5-7 in there, and get to harvest 3 plants a month, all different strains if I'm not running any clones, which I usually am.

I have some good pics of the room, but they're on the other puter. There are some in the early pages of my journal, too. I did find this one with 8 plants in it:

 

[PeeJay]

Thanks Gray

I certainly won't have a problem running three similar sized plants in a 4x4. I suppose I knew that already - but it's nice to have a visual since your plant size is a good reference point.

What I really want is a 6' x 2.5' foot space with three ~ 500 watt LEDs. Then I could have 3 plants in flower in ten gallons of soil each in a in a neat row confined in a wall-unit like space. A 2' x 4' tent is not enough room. It would be good for two plants but not three. Looking at tent sizes available it looks like I'm stuck with a square footprint unless I go much larger than the commonly available 2' x 4' options.

 

[sir grow alot]

+REP allllll day long on this thread GT!!!!!

Just amazing...

 

[Graytail]

+REP allllll day long on this thread GT!!!!!

Just amazing...

Hey, thanks for the reps!

I think one reason they're looking particularly good right now is the weather - the room is finally back to 80 degrees where I (and the plants) like it. I didn't insulate the room thinking the earth might be enough insulation with 600 watts of heat in there, but the ground froze 6 feet deep this year, so no, uh uh, no insulation. I had to add a 500 watt heater and even then, I could only keep it up into the low 70s. Now it's nice and toasty in there during lights-on and 61 degrees at night, just what I (and the plants) like.

I'll add 2 inches of closed-cell this summer, and that should fix it.

 

[CareStaker]

I always have the urge to order some beans, after your updates!

Cool to see your setup. Up until now, I thought you were growing in a clown car.....cause plants just keep piling out, and no one knows how!

 

[Graytail]

I always have the urge to order some beans, after your updates!

Cool to see your setup. Up until now, I thought you were growing in a clown car.....cause plants just keep piling out, and no one knows how!

I just put SWD on my list! Jack Herer x Blueberry sounds good, even without watching your spectacular specimen blossom.