Graytail's 3rd: 4x4, HiBrix, Latest LED Tech, Lots Of Light!

Graytail said:
Well ... I think some stuff sunk in tonight. :cheesygrinsmiley:

The minerals we talk about most, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, and Sodium, are cations and are stuck to the soil like static electricity and clothing. The roots release H+ ions which can get in between and pop the mineral ion off. Then the root hairs snatch up the mineral ion. Mycos do the same thing. The roots take it in, either by presenting a molecule that can attach to the mineral ion and pass it into the cell, or by presenting a cell that has a lower concentration of the mineral which cause it to diffuse into the cell. Once the mineral is in the root, it can be carried into the plants along with the water.

Cation Exchange Capacity is how many sites the soil has for cations to adhere (adsorb) to. Humus has the highest capacity followed by vermiculite with several others lower.

So, if I want to load my soil with cations before I introduce the drench, I want a soil with higher humus to create more sites and a recent drench of cations to load them. Energy is Calcium and Nitrogen - Transplant is Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium. :hmmm: Both? :hmmmm:
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Cool. Where does peat fit in? For some reason I thought it was the peat surfaces where the action happened.is that part of the humus, in this context?
 
Graytail, you should check this one out. It's the book I found on roots and soil a while back. There're good chapters on the electro chemical and biological interactions that you might find interesting in this search. I'm going to try to put it down and go to bed but I'm lost in soil electricity.

Plant Roots: Growth, activity and interaction with soils

Hope you enjoy it. Not for the faint of heart, but he's a good guide.
 
Some of that actually made sense. It keeps raising more questions. :straightface:
 
How would you increase the humus in your/our soil?
 
Rascio said:
Cool. Where does peat fit in? For some reason I thought it was the peat surfaces where the action happened.is that part of the humus, in this context?
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Yep, peat is humus.

HUMUS
In soil science, humus refers to any organic matter that has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain essentially as it is for centuries, if not millennia. In agriculture, humus is sometimes also used to describe mature compost, or natural compost extracted from a forest or other spontaneous source for use to amend soil. It is also used to describe a topsoil horizon that contains organic matter.

MOR is a type of humus, which occur largely in coniferous forest soils and the moorlands soils. This humus arise under conditions of low-biological activity in soil. The mineralization of organic matter proceed slowly and create layers, which maintain a structure of vegetable material. Acidophilic fungi and low active invertebrates participates in transformations of plant residues. Under these circumstances forms a litter of large thickness. C/N ratio of mor humus is always more than 20, or even 30-40, whereas pH is acid.

Peat is a MOR humus. Peat is an accumulation of partially decayed vegetation matter. Peat forms in wetland bogs, moors, muskegs, pocosins, mires, and peat swamp forests. Peat is harvested as an important source of fuel in certain parts of the world.
 
So what are you thinking?
 
See? This is why I find myself up at 5 AM. All the interesting brainy stuff doesn't start until everyone's ripped and full into creative. You guys are gonna ruin me. :laughtwo:
 
Yeah, so what's he thinking? I can't see anymore. Time for Susan to get her butt to bed.

Gentlemen, this was wonderfully exciting learning. Wish I weren't so tired or I'd keep reading.

Goodnight. :Love:
 
I believe he's thinking that vermiculite, being inert, won't offer anything to the soil mix other than somewhere for nutrients to bond. Then it becomes a challenge to load them properly to get the plants past the doldrums they've been hitting following the CAT drench.

That's what blasted across my brain when I woke up a few minutes ago. Am I close Graytail?

Now wasn't that fun? I don't know about you, but I find a late night search for further understanding invigorating!
 
SweetSue said:
Yeah, so what's he thinking? I can't see anymore. Time for Susan to get her butt to bed.

Gentlemen, this was wonderfully exciting learning. Wish I weren't so tired or I'd keep reading.

Goodnight. :Love:
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What a laugh! I finally turned the lights off at 5:30! And, thankfully, I'm still functional. Don't know how, but I am. :laughtwo: Great fun.
 
As I reuse soil, I clearly see that it becomes denser, more aged, so it requires some more perlite or vermiculite as well as some fresh peat. I already have perlite in the mix, so I'm going to start adding vermiculite. Rascio's comment gave me pause, but I still think the vermiculite will increase CEC, not sure why.

And I'm going to do some more research into a combined Energy/Transplant drench before I introduce the Cat drench.

:hmmm:
 
Vermiculite has more CEC than perlite, but it doesn't aerate as well (and holds more water).
 
Graytail said:
As I reuse soil, I clearly see that it becomes denser, more aged, so it requires some more perlite or vermiculite as well as some fresh peat. I already have perlite in the mix, so I'm going to start adding vermiculite. Rascio's comment gave me pause, but I still think the vermiculite will increase CEC, not sure why.

And I'm going to do some more research into a combined Energy/Transplant drench before I introduce the Cat drench.

:hmmm:
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Excellent!

I have an idea about the changing soil structure you have observed. When I was trying to sort what myco fungi are all about, I kept running into articles not by fungi experts or soil scientists, but by civil engineers.

The fungal hyphae ifs composed of tubes made up largely by a group of proteins called Glomalin Related Soil Proteins. The things are as sticky as they sound, and over time they can turn the soil into an aggregate (like concrete).

These proteins are very slow to break down, and one reference mentioned a 7 year half life in soil. Civil engineers must factor the GRSP content in soils into their calculations for building foundations and such.

It has not escaped my attention that glomaln build up poses a challenge for recyclIng soil and for people doing no-till LOS.

Cheers! :passitleft:
 
Graytail said:
As I reuse soil, I clearly see that it becomes denser, more aged, so it requires some more perlite or vermiculite as well as some fresh peat. I already have perlite in the mix, so I'm going to start adding vermiculite. Rascio's comment gave me pause, but I still think the vermiculite will increase CEC, not sure why.

And I'm going to do some more research into a combined Energy/Transplant drench before I introduce the Cat drench.

:hmmm:
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What ratio of vermiculite are you considering? I think you're on to something here Graytail. My Spidey sense is tingling like mad every time I think about it. I have to give my eyes a couple day to adapt to the glasses before I jump back into heavy reading or flying research. :straightface:

It occurred to me that with the added vermiculite you may not need to do a combined drench. What should happen is the vermiculite should hold onto more of the nutrients (might want to slightly increase doses?) as you progress through the plant's lifeline, so you should have a reserve sitting there when it's time for the CAT. Sound logical?
 
Rascio said:
I wonder what the CEC of biochar is. Bet its really really high.
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I haven't found any numbers yet but I did find this neat information.

Biochar is a natural host for raw soil materials such as fertilizers, microbes, and plants. It is not directly consumed by plants but instead acts as a catalyst for beneficial soil reactions [4]. Without thermal modification, all forms of biomass are biodegradable. The thermal transformation of pyrolysis releases volatile gases as the carbon atoms rearrange into a new solid structure; this reaction occur over a temperature range of 200-500 . The pyrolytic gases are released into the atmosphere, unless otherwise caught [2].
Above 300 , carbonization occurs and the chemical bonds undergo dehydration and aliphatic bonds are converted into aromatic bonds; these aromatic bonds grow together to form local grapheme complexes [2]. The covalent bonds between the structures protect the bonds from living systems breaking down the graphitic structure. Furthermore, the pore walls of the biochar act as active sites for cation exchange without consuming any of the vital nutrients (Figure 3). This allows all pertinent minerals to be accessed easily by plant roots and microbes

1.5.2 Nutrient Retention
Biochar addition to soil has shown a greater increase of exchangeable Ca, Mg, K, Na, and P in the soil (Figure 4) [5]. This creates an environment with an elevated cation exchange capacity (CEC). The CEC measures how well cations are bound to soil or biochar and are then prevented from leaching into the ground [5]. The negatively charged reactive surface of biochar allows for cations to be electro-statically bounded (adsorbed) and available for exchange with the plant roots.

It's from https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=matesp

THE CHARACTERIZATION AND COMPARISON OF BIOCHAR PRODUCED FROM A DECENTRALIZED REACTOR USING FORCED AIR AND NATURAL DRAFT PYROLYSIS
Leah Herbert, Ian Hosek, & Rishi Kripalani Advisor: Dr. Linda Vanasupa
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo Materials Engineering Department
4 June 2012
 
Dr. Hue believes the CEC numbers for biochar are flawed. This is his reasoning for that conclusion. Makes sense to me.

Nguyen Hue · University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa
I suspect that common CEC determination methods that are used for soils may not be appropriate for biochar or biochar-amended soils. That is because biochars, especially those derived from wood, have many micro/nanopores that can tightly trap ions (e.g., NH4+) and water or alcohol cannot flush them out. This is a physical adsorption as opposed to electrostatic attraction or chemi-sortion.

Sep 1, 2014

It looks like we have to be satisfied with biochar acts as a catalyst in the CEC process and with its massive increase in internal structure can hold an inordinate number of ions. One can see why it's so sought after. Maybe biochar should be part of the consideration for modifying the soil.

Ok, I'll stop now. Not my journal is it? :laughtwo:
 
Rascio said:
Excellent!

I have an idea about the changing soil structure you have observed. When I was trying to sort what myco fungi are all about, I kept running into articles not by fungi experts or soil scientists, but by civil engineers.

The fungal hyphae ifs composed of tubes made up largely by a group of proteins called Glomalin Related Soil Proteins. The things are as sticky as they sound, and over time they can turn the soil into an aggregate (like concrete).

These proteins are very slow to break down, and one reference mentioned a 7 year half life in soil. Civil engineers must factor the GRSP content in soils into their calculations for building foundations and such.

It has not escaped my attention that glomaln build up poses a challenge for recyclIng soil and for people doing no-till LOS.

Cheers! :passitleft:
Click to expand...

Unless there's something else going on in the hyper-active soil communities that we cultivate in our indoor gardens that may be compensating for this. I can tell you that there are a number of long-term (over three years that I know of for sure) LOS no-till gardeners who aren't seeing any detrimental developments like this. I realize your reference mentioned 7 years, so maybe in that time it could. It'd be a hell of a run to that 7 year mark.

In 6 years I'll let you know Rascio. :laughtwo:

Edit: Many no-tills have a healthy worm population. Could this possibly ameliorate that GRSP concern?
 
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