Graytail's 3rd: 4x4, HiBrix, Latest LED Tech, Lots Of Light!
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ClosedCircuit
New Member
LOL, I decided to post, late at night, while really stoned, which is something a seasoned interwebster oughta know not to do ...
I was thinking about how I wish I understood the electrochemistry of the soil. I can find out, but it seems terribly tedious and I finally realized that I just don't have a context for understanding it. I need some analogy, some paradigm, to start from. I get the plumbing part of plants - how the fluids are passed up and down the plant through vessels much like we have. And the cool part is that the whole works runs from suction - from evaporation in the leaves.But I don't really get what's in those vessels. I know that sugars and hormones are passed from place to place, but when we get to what PeeJay was talking about I just have no context to attach the facts to. It makes sense to me, but it doesn't stick. I have a chemistry background, so I know what a nitrate and a nitrite are, etc, phosphates and sulfates, etc, but so what? I need to know how plant tissue is built, what ingredients are required, how and when they're delivered. So ... I had a puff or two and ruminated ... what exactly are these ingredients and how do they affect the final product? ... how are minerals involved? - they're part of the structural tissue, I know ...
And for some reason, baking came to mind.The final product depends on the ingredients you start with, and their quality. Yeast will get you one thing, baking powder will get you another and eggs will get you something different, as will as none of them at all. It's always been obvious that we have a higher proportion of chefs and bakers in the cannabis community. I never really knew that, because, y'know, people don't talk about it, but it's good to see. Taste is one of our senses and that's one of the things the herb is good at - sensory expansion - same reason musicians indulge in weed.
See, this is the problem with posting when you're ripped. I had a point ......
... nope, apparently, as it turns out, I didn't.
... gotta go google me some mineral/soil electrochemistry stuff ...
Cation Exchange: This might explain the electric charge of the soil....don't know if that was what you are looking for.
So now you folks have me thinking.
Assuming some LOS strategies include something that eats dead fungus tubes and prevents aggregation. Could It be that glomalin eaters are a missing component In DBHBB soil, resulting In an Incomplete SFW. Anybody got any candidates for investigation?
And yeah CC, that is a really nice diagram illustrating cation exchange!
Assuming some LOS strategies include something that eats dead fungus tubes and prevents aggregation. Could It be that glomalin eaters are a missing component In DBHBB soil, resulting In an Incomplete SFW. Anybody got any candidates for investigation?
And yeah CC, that is a really nice diagram illustrating cation exchange!
We're trying to figure out how Graytail can load more nutrient ions into his soil in advance of the CAT drench. He believes his 6-gallon pots don't hold enough fuel to pick up and maintain the pace the CAT drench initiates.
I hope that wasn't too presumptuous Graytail.
So now you folks have me thinking.
Assuming some LOS strategies include something that eats dead fungus tubes and prevents aggregation. Could It be that glomalin eaters are a missing component In DBHBB soil, resulting In an Incomplete SFW. Anybody got any candidates for investigation?
And yeah CC, that is a really nice diagram illustrating cation exchange!
Do you know of any HB Kit growers who have worms? I've asked a couple times and never really got much response. It occurs to me that the absence of something as critical to traditional soil health as worms should make us pause. Not stop what we're doing, mind you, because none of us is going to give this Kit up. Just being honest.
But the absence of worms suggests other anomalies to what we LOS gardeners think of as soil. I'm sure there are biological actions going on in LOS that would amaze us if we could see it all happen. The differences in the soils is intriguing as hell, isn't it? Because they both work, and once you get either of them clicking smoothly, they hum they're so happy.
Sorry, I get really passionate about soil. I drifted right into a ramble there.
Happy Hemper
Well-Known Member
Sue and others that are interested in soil life, chemistry, biology etc. I found some interesting info at the following.
"glomalin, a primary compound that improves soil tilth" The Living Soil
"CEC is an inherent soil characteristic and is difficult to alter significantly." Cations and Cation Exchange Capacity | Fact Sheets | soilquality.org.au
Pardon my interruption I just needed something to get my thoughts off of one of life's hiccups and digging for data helps.
"glomalin, a primary compound that improves soil tilth" The Living Soil
"CEC is an inherent soil characteristic and is difficult to alter significantly." Cations and Cation Exchange Capacity | Fact Sheets | soilquality.org.au
Pardon my interruption I just needed something to get my thoughts off of one of life's hiccups and digging for data helps.
To have one more inquisitive brain in the quest? You step right on in there Happy Hemper.
SmokeyMcFly
Well-Known Member
Man I don't know what much of this all means but that shit sure does sound good, carry on 
ClosedCircuit
New Member
We're trying to figure out how Graytail can load more nutrient ions into his soil in advance of the CAT drench. He believes his 6-gallon pots don't hold enough fuel to pick up and maintain the pace the CAT drench initiates.
I hope that wasn't too presumptuous Graytail.
I suppose it is easier said than done, but saturating the soil with positively charged mineral and hydrogen ions. I don't know exactly what the CAT drench does. I assume it facilitates the transfer by encouraging the migration of hydrogen ions??
I think Rascio may be on to something with mycho. Maybe the trick isn't putting more into the soil, but creating more "spaces," or in this case organisms, for nutrients to be readily absorbed. Fungi increase nutrient uptake, while storing nutrients in their own bodies temporarily. The more nutrients funneling though the hyphae network in the soil, the more room there is for positive mineral ions to bind with the soil and eventually become available to the plants.
Maybe?
Man I don't know what much of this all means but that shit sure does sound good, carry on
We're trying to figure it out ourselves Smokey.
That's a provocative thought CC. I wonder if that's so?
From Biochar International:
How does biochar affect soil biology?
Decades of research in Japan and recent studies in the U.S. have shown that biochar stimulates the activity of a variety of agriculturally important soil microorganisms, and can greatly affect the microbiological properties of soils. The pores in biochar provide a suitable habitat for many microorganisms by protecting them from predation and drying while providing many of their diverse carbon (C), energy and mineral nutrient needs. With the interest in using biochar for promoting soil fertility, many scientific studies are being conducted to better understand how this affects the physical and chemical properties of soil and its suitability as a microbial habitat. Since soil organisms provide a myriad of ecosystem services, understanding how adding biochar to soil may affect soil ecology is critical for assuring that soil quality and the integrity of the soil subsystem are maintained.
How does biochar affect soil properties like pH and CEC?
Biochar reduces soil acidity which decreases liming needs, but in most cases does not actually add nutrients in any appreciable amount. Biochar made from manure and bones is the exception; it retains a significant amount of nutrients from its source. Because biochar attracts and holds soil nutrients, it potentially reduces fertilizer requirements. As a result, fertilization costs are minimized and fertilizer (organic or chemical) is retained in the soil for longer. In most agricultural situations worldwide, soil pH (a measure of acidity) is low (a pH below 7 means more acidic soil) and needs to be increased. Biochar retains nutrients in soil directly through the negative charge that develops on its surfaces, and this negative charge can buffer acidity in the soil, as does organic matter in general.
CEC stands for Cation Exchange Capacity, and is one of many factors involved in soil fertility. "Cations" are positively charged ions, in this case we refer specifically to plant nutrients such as calcium (Ca2+), potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg2+) and others. These simple forms are those in which plants take the nutrients up through their roots. Organic matter and some clays in soil hold on to these positively charged nutrients because they have negatively charged sites on their surfaces, and opposite charges attract. The soil can then "exchange" these nutrients with plant roots. If a soil has a low cation exchange capacity
How does biochar affect soil biology?
Decades of research in Japan and recent studies in the U.S. have shown that biochar stimulates the activity of a variety of agriculturally important soil microorganisms, and can greatly affect the microbiological properties of soils. The pores in biochar provide a suitable habitat for many microorganisms by protecting them from predation and drying while providing many of their diverse carbon (C), energy and mineral nutrient needs. With the interest in using biochar for promoting soil fertility, many scientific studies are being conducted to better understand how this affects the physical and chemical properties of soil and its suitability as a microbial habitat. Since soil organisms provide a myriad of ecosystem services, understanding how adding biochar to soil may affect soil ecology is critical for assuring that soil quality and the integrity of the soil subsystem are maintained.
How does biochar affect soil properties like pH and CEC?
Biochar reduces soil acidity which decreases liming needs, but in most cases does not actually add nutrients in any appreciable amount. Biochar made from manure and bones is the exception; it retains a significant amount of nutrients from its source. Because biochar attracts and holds soil nutrients, it potentially reduces fertilizer requirements. As a result, fertilization costs are minimized and fertilizer (organic or chemical) is retained in the soil for longer. In most agricultural situations worldwide, soil pH (a measure of acidity) is low (a pH below 7 means more acidic soil) and needs to be increased. Biochar retains nutrients in soil directly through the negative charge that develops on its surfaces, and this negative charge can buffer acidity in the soil, as does organic matter in general.
CEC stands for Cation Exchange Capacity, and is one of many factors involved in soil fertility. "Cations" are positively charged ions, in this case we refer specifically to plant nutrients such as calcium (Ca2+), potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg2+) and others. These simple forms are those in which plants take the nutrients up through their roots. Organic matter and some clays in soil hold on to these positively charged nutrients because they have negatively charged sites on their surfaces, and opposite charges attract. The soil can then "exchange" these nutrients with plant roots. If a soil has a low cation exchange capacity
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- #953
The Kit contains biochar. As I recall, it's used as a coating on one of the pelletized mineral compounds. The Lab is steeped in high-CEC methods and I'm confidant they have the value right where they want it. The amendments are very well engineered, right down to pellet sizes and makeups and blends. But they don't anticipate potted plants. They recommend that you till it into the top 7-8 inches of soil. From there, it percolates downward, different minerals at different rates, so the pellets are designed for that. Watering pots is different.
My 6 gallon pots are smaller than other growers, and I get leaf stress that the growers in 10+ gallon pots simply don't get, and I'm convinced that it's because of my small pots, so I'm trying to understand what the limiting factors are and maybe find some workarounds. I could probably feed heavily with Energy all the way through bloom, but that's cheating - that's not feeding soil - that's feeding the plant. I'd like to find a synergistic method to ramp up CEC and soil biota and see if I can't get some harmony between my pot size and the size of plant I want.
I like the 15 inch square pots - they fit so well in my 48x57 inch room. I've looked at larger pots and the softies are round, which won't work, and there isn't much selection of 15 inch square pots. Mine are actually 13 inches of soil, because of the 1 inch lip on the pot. An extra 2 inches would get me a couple more gallons, which would be about right, I think. I've also looked into milk crates with felt liners. There are a couple sizes that could work for me.
Meanwhile ... I'd like to figure out this cation load and release process first - see if I can't keep the little 6 gallon pots.
The instructions don't say to feed Transplant right before Cationic drench, so it can't be a necessary thing, but it makes sense. The Cat drench will release the cations, which will have a high proportion of Potassium because it's adsorbed so easily, along with Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium, etc. I don't get enough Nitrogen from my soil, so ... is something grabbing the site and elbowing Nitrogen out, or do I have less N in the soil than I should ... ? What would a solid pre-drench of Transplant do?
As I recall, it's used as a coating on one of the pelletized mineral compounds. The Lab is steeped in high-CEC methods and I'm confidant they have the value right where they want it. The amendments are very well engineered, right down to pellet sizes and makeups and blends. But they don't anticipate potted plants. They recommend that you till it into the top 7-8 inches of soil. From there, it percolates downward, different minerals at different rates, so the pellets are designed for that. Watering pots is different.My 6 gallon pots are smaller than other growers, and I get leaf stress that the growers in 10+ gallon pots simply don't get, and I'm convinced that it's because of my small pots, so I'm trying to understand what the limiting factors are and maybe find some workarounds. I could probably feed heavily with Energy all the way through bloom, but that's cheating - that's not feeding soil - that's feeding the plant. I'd like to find a synergistic method to ramp up CEC and soil biota and see if I can't get some harmony between my pot size and the size of plant I want.
I like the 15 inch square pots - they fit so well in my 48x57 inch room. I've looked at larger pots and the softies are round, which won't work, and there isn't much selection of 15 inch square pots. Mine are actually 13 inches of soil, because of the 1 inch lip on the pot. An extra 2 inches would get me a couple more gallons, which would be about right, I think. I've also looked into milk crates with felt liners. There are a couple sizes that could work for me.
Meanwhile ... I'd like to figure out this cation load and release process first - see if I can't keep the little 6 gallon pots.The instructions don't say to feed Transplant right before Cationic drench, so it can't be a necessary thing, but it makes sense. The Cat drench will release the cations, which will have a high proportion of Potassium because it's adsorbed so easily, along with Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium, etc. I don't get enough Nitrogen from my soil, so ... is something grabbing the site and elbowing Nitrogen out, or do I have less N in the soil than I should ... ? What would a solid pre-drench of Transplant do?
- Thread starter
- #954
Excellent!
I have an idea about the changing soil structure you have observed. When I was trying to sort what myco fungi are all about, I kept running into articles not by fungi experts or soil scientists, but by civil engineers.
The fungal hyphae ifs composed of tubes made up largely by a group of proteins called Glomalin Related Soil Proteins. The things are as sticky as they sound, and over time they can turn the soil into an aggregate (like concrete).
These proteins are very slow to break down, and one reference mentioned a 7 year half life in soil. Civil engineers must factor the GRSP content in soils into their calculations for building foundations and such.
It has not escaped my attention that glomaln build up poses a challenge for recyclIng soil and for people doing no-till LOS.
Cheers!
Have you read about the calcium/magnesium ratio and how it affects soil texture? It sounds a lot like what you're describing. High calcium soils are looser and spongier, enough to withstand tractor ruts. High magnesium soils are sticky and dense.
The Kit contains biochar.
My 6 gallon pots are smaller than other growers, and I get leaf stress that the growers in 10+ gallon pots simply don't get, and I'm convinced that it's because of my small pots, so I'm trying to understand what the limiting factors are and maybe find some workarounds. I could probably feed heavily with Energy all the way through bloom, but that's cheating - that's not feeding soil - that's feeding the plant. I'd like to find a synergistic method to ramp up CEC and soil biota and see if I can't get some harmony between my pot size and the size of plant I want.
I like the 15 inch square pots - they fit so well in my 48x57 inch room. I've looked at larger pots and the softies are round, which won't work, and there isn't much selection of 15 inch pots. Mine are actually 13 inches of soil, because of the 1 inch lip on the pot. An extra 2 inches would get me a couple more gallons, which would be about right, I think. I've also looked into milk crates with felt liners. There are a couple sizes that could work for me.
The instructions don't say to feed Transplant right before Cationic drench, so it can't be a necessary thing, but it makes sense. The Cat drench will release the cations, which will have a high proportion of Potassium because it's adsorbed so easily, along with Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium, etc. I don't get enough Nitrogen from my soil, so ... is something grabbing the site and elbowing Nitrogen out, or do I have less N in the soil than I should ... ? What would a solid pre-drench of Transplant do?
It's the middle of the night and I was asleep just a bit ago so I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, but didn't scrubby do something with a heavy Transplant drench right before the CAT?
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- #958
Yeah, and Doc proposes it as a Super drench to straighten out problem plants. I tried it on my BHxBB and it may have helped, but she's been pale for most of bloom - not a pretty one. Should be a good solid yield though. ... I should take some brix reading on 'er ...
[Edit after seeing your post] Hmm, but that was after Cat drench. I did it to BHxBB before the drench and she sailed through pretty well. ...dunno ...
... I should take some brix reading on 'er ...[Edit after seeing your post] Hmm, but that was after Cat drench. I did it to BHxBB before the drench and she sailed through pretty well.
...dunno ...
So we're back to the differences in the soil. If the soil mix deters myco associations that might explain why they get added so much. That was always curious to me. It takes myco about 3-4 months to form solid associations, and then those connections increase in efficiency the longer you leave then undisturbed. You should only need them added when you plant. Proper maintenance of my no-till means I really don't need to add any more to my pot, because the community is already well established.
Graytail, is it possible to beef up your nitrogen needs with something as simple as tossing some comfrey leaves on as a mulch a couple weeks before the CAT?
You guys are addictive. I'm going to try to go back to sleep. Quit waking me up.
I'm going to try to go back to sleep. Quit waking me up.