Graytail's 3rd: 4x4, HiBrix, Latest LED Tech, Lots Of Light!

[ShiggityFlip]

Actually, that's one of the points that gets confused. It's not the size or wattage of the individual bulbs, it's their total output as a group. 5 watt LEDs don't penetrate any differently than 3 watt LEDs or even big COBs. It's purely total power. The rest of it all has to do with the focus. If you beam the entire panel straight down, all the output goes straight down - better penetration. But outside the footprint, everything else gets screwed.




My numbers are by no means exact, but they're accurate, if I can make the distinction. I think you have to include the ballasts/drivers in the heat equation. As you say, that's where a lot of the heat is produced. The best LED drivers are 95% efficient. Old magnetic ballasts aren't even remotely close to that - an expensive electronic hps ballast runs much cooler.

But I believe these numbers are PAR umols, so they're comparable from source to source. As far as spectrum tinkering, I still think that's small stuff. Higher PAR accomplishes the same thing, unless you already have most of your other environmental variables nailed down and you're looking for those last few advantages.

I remember a video where they were saying that commercial growers were adding in LEDs in between their HPS lights. The LEDs were responsible for completing the spectrum and adding increased levels of terpenes to their grow. Might be BS but I have always grown with HPS only in flower and I do believe I have an increased terpene content since adding the LEDs.
There are lots of other effects that light of different spectra have on cannabis. I am going to purchase some far red leds to turn on right after the garden lights go off. This can help convert phytochrome from Pfr to Pr conformation, a process that normally can take two hours. In effect it could allow me to run 12.5 hours to 13 hours of light and have the plant behave as if it were getting 13 hours or so of darkness. We will see if that is true!

 

[Graytail]

I remember a video where they were saying that commercial growers were adding in LEDs in between their HPS lights. The LEDs were responsible for completing the spectrum and adding increased levels of terpenes to their grow. Might be BS but I have always grown with HPS only in flower and I do believe I have an increased terpene content since adding the LEDs.
There are lots of other effects that light of different spectra have on cannabis. I am going to purchase some far red leds to turn on right after the garden lights go off. This can help convert phytochrome from Pfr to Pr conformation, a process that normally can take two hours. In effect it could allow me to run 12.5 hours to 13 hours of light and have the plant behave as if it were getting 13 hours or so of darkness. We will see if that is true!

You're right about the character of the buds under LED vs hps. I'm leery to attribute all of it to the LED spectrum though. I'm also running much higher PAR. In my garden, which has been variable for other reasons, I got less yield and higher bud (and trich) density under LED vs hps. I should be getting better yield and I will once I work on the environment a bit.

And I looked into far red (not infra red) and would like to tinker with that. I believe it's also useful for the first hour in the morning, so I'd put it on a timer for 2-one hour shifts, at sunrise and sunset.

But I'm still convinced that 1000 watts of average spectrum will out perform 800 watts of ideal spectrum, for instance.

Ideally, we'd have real-time spectrum control over our panel through WiFi, and an app that we could program - imitate the changing daylight spectrum, manipulate growth and flowering, match lighting to soil conditions, etc. People love their electronic/digital/computer gadgetry. I may not ever buy one, but I'd really really want it. I'm a geek.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

You're right about the character of the buds under LED vs hps. I'm leery to attribute all of it to the LED spectrum though. I'm also running much higher PAR. In my garden, which has been variable for other reasons, I got less yield and higher bud density under LED vs hps. I should be getting better yield and I will once I work on the environment a bit.

And I looked into far red (not infra red) and would like to tinker with that. I believe it's also useful for the first hour in the morning, so I'd put it on a timer for 2-one hour shifts, at sunrise and sunset.

But I'm still convinced that 1000 watts of average spectrum will out perform 800 watts of ideal spectrum, for instance.

Ideally, we'd have real-time spectrum control over our panel through WiFi, and an app that we could program - imitate daylight spectra, manipulate growth and flowering, match lighting to soil conditions, etc. People love their electronic/digital/computer gadgetry. I may not ever buy one, but I'd really really want it. I'm a geek.

That is certainly the dream Graytail, keep the same output but slowly go more red 660nm and far red 730nm over time as the grow progresses, or any crazy thing you could want to do. The possibilities of that would be endless. You caould even do a martian method if you had a crazy itch to do so. I would certainly pay for a light fixture that could let us fine tune the spectrum but keep constant output, or even variable output. Or strobing! Oh wow that just has me hoping for the future!

 

[Graytail]

What do we know about stretch and root growth?

I don't get stretch. I thought it was because of the way I manipulate my plants, distributing the growth hormones all over the place. But does it also have to do with the state of root growth? By the time I flip mine, the rootball is well established so there isn't much additional root growth in bloom.

Does more available soil at flip cause more stretch?

 

[ShiggityFlip]

What do we know about stretch and root growth?

I don't get stretch. I thought it was because of the way I manipulate my plants, distributing the growth hormones all over the place. But does it also have to do with the state of root growth? By the time I flip mine, the rootball is well established so there isn't much additional root growth in bloom.

Does more available soil at flip cause more stretch?

Its really interesting that you post that. I have been looking up quite a bit on stretch lately. I like my girls to be compact. What I have found so far is.

1. Phosphorus increases stretch. So people that use grow nutes for the first week in flower may be on to something.
2. Mechanical manipulation decreases stretch. That one is kind of obvious but I think running the broom handle over the plants was a good tactic this grow. My plants are much bigger this time than last round but not much taller.
3. Decreased temps at the beginning of the light cycle are supposed to decrease stretch. (10 degree differential from normal)
4. Excess far red light can increase stretch.
5. Blue light decreases stretch (we all know this from the old MH vs HPS days).

I think you may be onto something with the rootball. It makes sense to me. The plant can say to itself, "hey I've done about all I can do roots wise, if I am saving up for flower I better slow down shoot growth"

 

[Kalimaki420]

I think yes.

This is Jilly Bean cloned, potted, up potted and set in bloom the same day.
One in 5gal and 1 in 7gal.

 

[DrZiggy]

That is certainly the dream Graytail, keep the same output but slowly go more red 660nm and far red 730nm over time as the grow progresses, or any crazy thing you could want to do. The possibilities of that would be endless. You caould even do a martian method if you had a crazy itch to do so. I would certainly pay for a light fixture that could let us fine tune the spectrum but keep constant output, or even variable output. Or strobing! Oh wow that just has me hoping for the future!

I was wondering about a strobes' effects on these plants..

 

[Radogast]

I have one part of this that I want to run by you. BY heat I am thinking you mean heat directly produced by the light source and not by the ballast. Light is radiation and radiation produces heat. And it will be the same for each source for the same amount of light produced (photons). But efficiency comes into play as well. All light sources have a ballast or driver. My magnetic ballasts produce far more heat than my electronic ones, due to their reduced efficiency at turning power into photons. So the electronic ballast plus bulb produces less total heat than a magnetic ballast plus bulb of the same energy output.

Ok one more thing. The umols produced by HPS and by LED are approximately equivalent depending on the bulb used or LED used. But the spectrum of each is vastly different. We can easily saturate the red spectrum using an HPS or the Blue spectrum using LEDs. But combined together I think their complementation of spectrum can give a synergistic effect. Each provides what the other lacks.

HPS ballasts are remote from the lights, spreading the heat around. My ballasts are mounted outside my flowering room. Being electronic, they run A LOT cooler than I expected.

Emilya was very happy supplementing her HPS? lights with 2 hours of LED lights during the middle of the 'day'

 

[CareStaker]

I am in Spain, not seen light yet I'm gonna hunt him down tomorrow.

So like, let us know - when you see the Light.



Efficiency, in light emitting diode lighting, is how much of the power sent, turns into light and how much into heat. The sum of the two, will always be 100%. If an old filament bulb is 5% efficient, at 100w it will produce 5w of PAR light, and 95w of heat.

There's some math floating around 'elsewhere' so I stole some and plugged it into a little spreadsheet, that will calculate the heat vs PAR based on manufacturers LER numbers and QER. You can then work up PPFD estimates by dividing by your area, and know what your giving them.

Here my Cree CXB3595 bin choice - I've modeled it out, using between 12 and 16 cobs for the 4x4, with some rudimentary thermal management estimates, and have been sitting on it for almost a year. I'll get to it, someday.

 

[Conradino23]

Difference between day and night temps actually causes the biggest stretch, so if you balance these stretch will be minimal and easy to tame.

 

[Dennise]

Good morning Gray... Sending you a blessed and green day....

 

[Graytail]

Good morning Gray... Sending you a blessed and green day....

Backatcha darlin'! :: I thought of your gorgeous hillsides this week. I always loved that countryside, especially in spring and fall, as we passed through there a few times every year on business trips.

Difference between day and night temps actually causes the biggest stretch, so if you balance these stretch will be minimal and easy to tame.

My garden still puzzles me. I rarely get more than a double and usually 50% or so. Mine just never stretch. All winter my room has been 82 day 68 night, and they don't stretch. I run blue/white spectrum in veg and when they hit the red light in the bloom room they don't stretch. I run a stretchy strain - it doesn't stretch. I don' get it.

So like, let us know - when you see the Light.

With his demonstrated skills, we should just start referring to him as "The Light".

Efficiency, in light emitting diode lighting, is how much of the power sent, turns into light and how much into heat. The sum of the two, will always be 100%. If an old filament bulb is 5% efficient, at 100w it will produce 5w of PAR light, and 95w of heat.

There's some math floating around 'elsewhere' so I stole some and plugged it into a little spreadsheet, that will calculate the heat vs PAR based on manufacturers LER numbers and QER. You can then work up PPFD estimates by dividing by your area, and know what your giving them.

Here my Cree CXB3595 bin choice - I've modeled it out, using between 12 and 16 cobs for the 4x4, with some rudimentary thermal management estimates, and have been sitting on it for almost a year. I'll get to it, someday.

Thanks for the PAR watt numbers! I never looked for the official stats.

And I've read through the heatsink dissipation threads but the math is annoying. I was figuring that a sink would handle roughly one watt per square inch, so I was close. You show the 42" x 4.85" sink dissipating 178 watts, passive. My design uses 5 Vero13s at 700ma each @ 33.4v = 117 watts consumed, about 50 dissipated? Whew, ok, I guess I could run those suckers passive, huh? Did I do the math right? Wow, no, I wasn't close. Gotta rethink it.

Heheh, I did realize that the entire ceiling would be covered with heatsinks in this design ... ... shoulda known.

The reason I got excited recently was the discovery of the Vero13s at $6-7 each. I've got it down to less than $35/COB using the cheap cheap Vero13s. I can throw a few simple 5-COB bars together with thermal paste to get my feet wet, and at very low cost. The sinks are oversized, so later I can snap any of the Veros off and replace them with something else. At $7 who cares?

It's fun to play with, but by the time I'd actually pull the trigger the costs and choices will change.

 

[SweetSue]

Thank you gentlemen for all this knowledge dump on lighting. I'll read it over a few times and maybe it'll make more sense to me now.

The "stretch" is something I've yet to witness in my own garden as well. I expected the Carnival to stretch last run and was sorely disappointed. Not at all disappointed with the product, with rock-hard nugs, I was just expecting a bit more stretch and only got about an inch or so if I was lucky.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Some of my plants stretch and some don't whatsoever. In my three Huck Kush Phenos, I see three different levels of Stretch. The HK #11 does not stretch. Switch her to flower and she starts budding right at that height. The HK#3 stretches to be 2x its initial height! The HK#8 stays tight in between the HK#3 and the HK#11. Agent Orange is a stretcher as well. About 2.5x. X8 does not stretch more than 1.1 its initital height.

 

[SweetSue]

Some of my plants stretch and some don't whatsoever. In my three Huck Kush Phenos, I see three different levels of Stretch. The HK #11 does not stretch. Switch her to flower and she starts budding right at that height. The HK#3 stretches to be 2x its initial height! The HK#8 stays tight in between the HK#3 and the HK#11. Agent Orange is a stretcher as well. About 2.5x. X8 does not stretch more than 1.1 its initital height.

So might this be more of a pheno trait than anything else? Don't get me wrong, the buds were spectacular, and her short stature didn't keep her from piling on those dense buds either. I was hoping light was a major contributing factor, now that I have some decent lights to make that magic happen.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Ummmm. Weird question but why why why would you want to induce stretch? Here is an example. My High Brix plants stretched less than my chem plants. But the amount of nugget is the same. I love a compact plant. Who needs height if I can get big buds on a small plant? My favorites are plants that have really short internodal space and minimal stretch. The twister is like that. And one of the reasons I love her so much. I know how long to veg her to get the size I want, then flip. With stretchy plants it is much harder to plan, and I hate seeing that empty space between nuggets.

 

[SweetSue]

Thank you Shiggity. Great insight. I'd have to agree. I work hard to keep them tight as youngsters. Photos are still relatively new to me, so I'm not really comfortable with what to anticipate yet. Give me a few more harvests. I'm a quick study.

 

[DrZiggy]

my girls dont stretch much now

Ziggy Tamed the Stretch!!

 

[Dennise]

Not all of us the "Dust" tho Ziggy.......

 

[Conradino23]

Hmm genetics definitely plays part here. Some strains will double some will triple although that's rare and some will stretch around 50-60%, which makes it perfect for indoor. I think your training is perfect too. I've noticed training itself can be enough to put anything under control they will stretch but in reasonable limits. But I think your temps are quite good too