Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

Canyon said:
Missing Person Update
I got an email from Kicknitup1 a while ago saying that he thought he had been banned. He could not log in. I checked and he was showing up as a member. When he did not start posting again I thought I should contact an administrator. I did and Mr. Teddy Edwards got back to me in minutes.

It turns out the server he is using has been flagged as one that has spam bots and anything cumming from it is not accepted by 420's server. They are working with him to get him back on the site.

Thanks 420 for the good news. I was having trouble imagining him intentionally doing something that would get him banned.

I never know
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That's strange for sure.
 
63 pages. Wow, you have covered a lot of ground. Thank you for all this information! My brain hurts, but now that I've read everything (ok, skimmed some): I've been thinking about a two step process to solve the temperature contradiction. Terpenes are driven off with heat and time, so what about trying nitrous to catch them?

Has anyone tried doing a rapid infusion using an iSi (or similar nitrous charger cream whipper) using fresh mtl? I'm thinking that's the start, then strain out your first batch of oil (presumably with terpenes), and use electric pressure cooker with oil- Sweet Sue's pot in pot in pot- to decarb the same material & catch the cannabinoids. Then mix the two oils together with lecithin... What do you think? Worth a try?
 
Welcome new members!

I have been jammed up with short deadline projects for a while. I have worked on the charts some but they have not been the priority that I would like them to be.

Farm girl, I am not familiar with the process you described. Could you provide a link or maybe a more detailed description?

I am still asking for input on test times for a pressure cooker decarb. We have full tests for 90 minutes. I can get quick cannabinoid test for $40 each. Then, have a full terpene test run on the most promising cannabinoid test. I can drop off samples on December 5 or around Christmas.

Kickn sent me two emails. He has been in Las Vegas since before Thanksgiving. He got back Monday and has been catching up on have to projects himself. He is experimenting with encapsulation methods now.

Tomorrow, I have to help pick a health insurance plan for my wife and get it set up because the one she is on is not going to be offered next year. Depending on how well that goes, I have a bar graph started that I would like to get posted tomorrow sometime.

I never know
 
Canyon said:
Farm girl, I am not familiar with the process you described. Could you provide a link or maybe a more detailed description?

I am still asking for input on test times for a pressure cooker decarb. We have full tests for 90 minutes. I can get quick cannabinoid test for $40 each. Then, have a full terpene test run on the most promising cannabinoid test. I can drop off samples on December 5 or around Christmas.
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I'm super interested in the results from the pressure cook method- it *seems* to work great for us; easy, tasty, potent; but I love hard data. From the FHO thread- which you may have seen-Sweet Sue's latest was high pressure for 60 minutes (pot in pot), but it wasn't completely decarbed. She was going to try 75 next, I think. I need to get over there and check...

As far as the nitrous goes: I've never heard of anyone using it for cannabis, but it's a common method of oil (or alcohol) infusion in culinary circles (Rosemary olive oil, bitters, etc). The whipper is basically a stainless can with a port for a nitrous charger. The nitrous pressurizes the contents, forcing volatile compounds into solution (like terpenes). Put cannabis in whipper, close, pressurize, release, strain. Then, decarb the same plant material in the pressure cooker in fresh oil. Mix the two oils together, add lecithin. This method may work for rapid tinctures or oil infusion of decarbed mtl. Like I said- I don't know of anyone doing this, but think it's a good avenue to check out.

We don't have a fresh harvest at the moment, but I'm going to try it with some of our stash. Depending on how well the nitrous infusion works, I suppose there is a risk of extracting too many undecarbed cannabinoids right off the bat. But- like Old Bear- I've found there is lingering goodness in the plant material after a first infusion, so I have high hopes. Ha.

Here's the link to the attachment that makes the infusion easier (the kit is not necessary, but makes de-pressurization easier):

iSi Culinary: Rapid Infusion

The kit is around $30, from Amazon. You need a infusion unit with a fixed head gasket to attach to it- the one iSi sells is at least $100, but I've been looking at a knock off (from ICO) that will apparently work, for another $30. We gave a cream whipper (think diy Reddi Whip), which got me thinking about this, but the gasket is wrong so I need a different unit. I'm going to try it, I'll report back.
 
"The standard recipe:
120 mls white rum
3 grams cilantro leaves
8 grams Thai basil leaves
8.5 grams orange peel

Charge with N20, swirl for 30 seconds. Allow to infuse for 1 minute total, then vent and strain."

It is from here.
Infusion Profusion: Game-Changing Fast 'N Cheap Technique
There is more information with some tests and times for several materials there.


Thanks,Farm Girl,
The cilantro and basil add up to 11 grams, probably fresh. There is enough alcohol to make about 3 drinks or one Long Island ice tea. Toss the cilantro and basil and add some decarbed cannabis. The orange peal is a nice touch.

With oil or alcohol, I think you are going to get the cannabinoids as well as the terpenes. The quick wash alcohol extraction method uses short rinses with frozen Ever Clear to keep the chlorophyll out of the extraction.

Oil sounds promissing. It would keep the heat out of the infusion process.

This is my first chart. Hopefully, it is readable. It is a terpene profile of 4 plants I had tested. If it looks OK, charts will be an option for some material.

I never know
Terpene_Chart.jpg
 
AKgramma said:
Maybe I'm not interpreting the chart correctly, but if the terpenes are almost non-existent in Extreme OG, what good is it?
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Thanks for stopping by.
The Extreme plant had 0.42 % total terpenes.
The Nightmare Cookies plant had 0.46% total terpenes.
Nightmare Cookies is among the best strains I have come across. The Extreme is close to top shelf with less bag appeal.

Dwarf Ghost had 1.50% total terpenes.
Ghost 2 had 1.55%.
The dwarf plant is probably a real dwarf. The roots, leaves, buds and tricombs were small as well as the clone I took from her. The seed was small and late breaking ground. Something was messed up with the genetics.

Both plants were seeds from the same bag. They tested low for THC at 15.3% for Ghost 2 and 17.6 for the dwarf. Both plants had exceptional complex highs that exceeded there THC content. However, the dwarf's high was noticeably soupier.

What makes one plant stand out when compared to what would seem to be a similar plant? It is not just the quantity of terpenes.

I never know
 
:thumb: the extreme OG had a broad spectrum of terpenes all the way across the list,
other strains didn't. :bongrip: I think I'd like to try that strain. :Namaste:
 
Scientific said:
I suspect that there is a very large quantity of suggestibility and placebo effect.
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It is good to have you back in the conversation.

Just looking at the small amount of terpenes in cannabis when compared to cannabinoids your statement sounds reasonable.

From my experience starting in the late 60's, every once in a while, you come across something special or distinctively different. My guess is that you can recognize that some strains have diferent taste and some of the highs are better than others. It is my belief that it is more than cannabinoids causing these differences. I could be wrong but, there is a lot of research time and money going into what is in cannabis and terpenes are a large part.

Strain profiling is gaining interest rapidly. Most of the interest is around the therapeutic qualities so far. Why should the effect terpenes may have on the brain be dismissed?

This is not a new test method but try this. Put three strains in three bags and invite some friends over. The first empty bag will be the best. Subjective? You could rig the game by putting one strain in three bags I suppose.

I never know
 
dynamo1 said:
:thumb: the extreme OG had a broad spectrum of terpenes all the way across the list,
other strains didn't. :bongrip: I think I'd like to try that strain. :Namaste:
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Good eye.
I am inexperienced with making charts and graphs. I tried removing the blanks and the two terpenes that had spikes today. I could not get it charted. My fault. I don't know what I am doing. I will get there.

Thanks
 
Farm Girl and Kickn are working on two very different processes for extraction. It turns out they both work on the same principle, cavitation. Try Wikipedia.

The more I read, the more I am convinced that a heated, sealed container under some amount of pressure is worth exploring.

I need to do some reading on vapor pressure, heat and saturation relationships before I do any more tests. Thoughts?

Just a heads up. I will try to check in tomorrow. After that I will be off air until Thursday.

I never know.
 
SweetSue still hasn't found the InstaPot sweet spot even at 90 minutes on high pressure. Took a 20 minute oil bath to finish the decarb.

Latest post here:
Fresh Harvest Infused Cannabis Oil
 
Canyon said:
It is good to have you back in the conversation.

Just looking at the small amount of terpenes in cannabis when compared to cannabinoids your statement sounds reasonable.

From my experience starting in the late 60's, every once in a while, you come across something special or distinctively different. My guess is that you can recognize that some strains have diferent taste and some of the highs are better than others. It is my belief that it is more than cannabinoids causing these differences. I could be wrong but, there is a lot of research time and money going into what is in cannabis and terpenes are a large part.

Strain profiling is gaining interest rapidly. Most of the interest is around the therapeutic qualities so far. Why should the effect terpenes may have on the brain be dismissed?

This is not a new test method but try this. Put three strains in three bags and invite some friends over. The first empty bag will be the best. Subjective? You could rig the game by putting one strain in three bags I suppose.

I never know
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome back! After I wrote it, I thought my comment felt a little bit like a wisecrack or a troll, but I had to say it--there is just so much talk about clear versus cloudy versus amber trichomes and sativa versus indica and I don't know what all else. I would love to see some real objective scientific inquiry into effects and their causes.

I have recently been doing a little experiment of my own by vaping essentially pure THC crystals. At least two companies are preparing them now. Mine are "THCA Crystaline" from Oleum Extracts (oleumlabs.com). When heated in the ceramic bowl of my Mig Vapor Sub-Herb, the white crystals melt into a crystal clear liquid and then vaporize. The stuff is potent, as you might expect, and it feels like a pretty pure head high, but maybe it's no different from the gooey brown oil I usually vape? It's all so subjective. I want to see PET scans! ;)

The only variable I remember in the weed from the late 60s and early 70s was whether it would actually got you high or not after you separated out all the lumber and seeds. Then sinsemilla came along and everything changed... ;)

Oleum Labs THCA Crystaline Remind you of anything?
THCA_Crystaline.jpg
 
Haha! You threw me back decades. :rofl:

Good to see you again Scientific. :hugs: I've been busy elsewhere S lately. Do you note any difference in the euphoric experience between the crystals and your oil?
 
InTheShed said:
SweetSue still hasn't found the InstaPot sweet spot even at 90 minutes on high pressure. Took a 20 minute oil bath to finish the decarb.

Latest post here:
Fresh Harvest Infused Cannabis Oil
Click to expand...

In two weeks I have a batch of FHO in the works. I'll be able to get a feel then for how much the IP decarbs in the chamber. I guess I'll do this first run at the lowest pressure. The CBD Critical Cure is the only plant I grow that I turn into FHO, so it'll be months before I get another go at it.

Canyon, you amaze me. :hugs: Before you know it you'll be expert at making graphs and charts. :laughtwo: Incidentally, it's the terpenes that create the effects we identify from cannabis. The simpl analogy is to consider the cannabinoids as the wheels and the terpenes as the steering mechanism. All that power needs direction and control. That's what the terpenes do.

I still have no understanding of the contribution flavonoids bring to the entourage effect. So much to learn. :battingeyelashes:
 
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