Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[SweetSue]

I suspect that there is a very large quantity of suggestibility and placebo effect.

I suspect you may be right. There's much to be said for the mix of terpenes. We don't yet understand how the mixes effect the cannabinoids, but I imagine certain combinations can have pronounced effects, as in Canyon's specimens. It's my understanding that the terpene expression can vary from place to place on the plants the same way the cannabinoid profile can vary widely.

She's a complex baby, this plant we're so obsessed with. Studying her'll keep us all young.

 

[Scientific]

Do you note any difference in the euphoric experience between the crystals and your oil?

I had to drive 10 miles and fork over $100 a gram for the magic powder because my scientific curiosity got the better of me (this when I already have half a dozen tinctures and oils about, but you probably know how that goes...). (Years on, I'm still counting my blessings and sort of in disbelief that I can just hop in the car and drive to the pot store.) Anyway, I really wanna say "It's all just pot! There's no difference," but vaping pure THCA crystals feels like a pure head high to me... or is that just because it looks so refined/techno/industrial? I would love to do a double-blind vape test with a statistically significant number of stoners.

 

[Canyon]

SweetSue still hasn't found the InstaPot sweet spot even at 90 minutes on high pressure. Took a 20 minute oil bath to finish the decarb.

Latest post here:
Fresh Harvest Infused Cannabis Oil

Thanks Shed,
It looks like Sue dropped in. Sometimes I think we are tuned in to each other in some cosmic way.

I retained around 50% of the total terpenes and had the THCA down to about 1% with dry buds at 90 minutes on high. The most loss occurred with the lighter molecules. I am thinking that if you use oil you will trap more terpenes but I don't know what change if any the oil will make on decarb time.

I never know

 

[Canyon]

I had to drive 10 miles and fork over $100 a gram for the magic powder because my scientific curiosity got the better of me (this when I already have half a dozen tinctures and oils about, but you probably know how that goes...). (Years on, I'm still counting my blessings and sort of in disbelief that I can just hop in the car and drive to the pot store.) Anyway, I really wanna say "It's all just pot! There's no difference," but vaping pure THCA crystals feels like a pure head high to me... or is that just because it looks so refined/techno/industrial? I would love to do a double-blind vape test with a statistically significant number of stoners.

I have not had the pleasure of trying a pure isolate. This state has a 70% THC limit on extracts. Thanks for the eye candy. I have tried a fair amount of extracts. I even tried strain terpene profile in CBD. The clean head high tends to come with good extracts.

Near 70% thc extracts are running around $30 for half a gram here. $100 is not out of line for a gram of what you tried. I wish I had the opertunity.

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks Shed,
It looks like Sue dropped in. Sometimes I think we are tuned in to each other in some cosmic way.

I retained around 50% of the total terpenes and had the THCA down to about 1% with dry buds at 90 minutes on high. The most loss occurred with the lighter molecules. I am thinking that if you use oil you will trap more terpenes but I don't know what change if any the oil will make on decarb time.

I never know

I'm certain of that connection Canyon. There's no other way to explain it.

So you did 90 min on high in the chamber, right? Then that's where I'll start when I do my harvest, instead of the low pressure setting. I've been thinking about it, and if 90 min on high didn't get me closer than I did with a pot-in-pot then I should be safe with the chamber and all that carrier oil. I'm so looking forward to giving this a go. I've waited a long time for this moment.

I was off reading about cavitation. Over my head. Lol! I'll grab it sooner or later, but right now it reads like a foreign language to me. I'm so thankful to be surrounded by all of you.

 

[Blew Hiller]

SweetSue still hasn't found the InstaPot sweet spot even at 90 minutes on high pressure. Took a 20 minute oil bath to finish the decarb.

Latest post here:
Fresh Harvest Infused Cannabis Oil

"Sweet spot" is subjective, as we found it very effective even at 60 min @ low pressure. Something to be said for the 80/20 axiom: 80% of the juice for 20% of the squeeze!

(My mistake earlier posting SweetSue used low pressure...she indeed did use high @ 90 min on her second run)

 

[Blazinjones]

I had to drive 10 miles and fork over $100 a gram for the magic powder because my scientific curiosity got the better of me (this when I already have half a dozen tinctures and oils about, but you probably know how that goes...). (Years on, I'm still counting my blessings and sort of in disbelief that I can just hop in the car and drive to the pot store.) Anyway, I really wanna say "It's all just pot! There's no difference," but vaping pure THCA crystals feels like a pure head high to me... or is that just because it looks so refined/techno/industrial? I would love to do a double-blind vape test with a statistically significant number of stoners.

Let me no when and where u wana do this and I'll be there with some black domina extract to contribute lol

 

[Canyon]

Hello world,
I confess, I overdosed on researching for this thread. With that and having other things to do, I had to walk away for a while.

A good friend of my wife, who is 87, gave me a chemistry book about a week ago. So far I have managed about 90 pages. There is a lot of new language to learn to go with what you are trying to understand.

What I am finding is that there is some correlation between the mass of the terpene molecules and the percentage retained after decarb. However, there is a closer relation between the boiling points and the percent retained. Would increasing the pressure to raise the boiling point help?

I have some ideas that I want to look into like how much pleasure would the CO2 from the decarb of a given amount of cannabis put inside a liter container? The formula is in the book I am reading. It is not that complicated. The weights, measures and standards are hard to keep straight though.

My next plant of any size and quality is supposed to be a high cbd strain. It is 46 days post flip. The flower time is 8-9 weeks. So, the middle of January I should have dry buds. The plan is to have a cheep cannabinoid test run, the 'while you wait' one, and decide what other tests would be worthwhile. I could decarb some of it and take it with me.

If the thc is more than minimal, I may blow off any other tests. It's for my wife. The thc has to be low for her. I have a 50/50ish strain now.

I also have a clone of the original Nightmare Cookies we started this thread with that will finish in about six weeks. There may be something we could do with it. It would save having the non decarbed test run for comparison.

I have a question about the pressurized milk bottle extraction. Is there a benefit other than the fun factor for using nitrous oxide over CO2?
I never know.

 

[Scientific]

how much pleasure would the CO2 from the decarb of a given amount of cannabis put inside a liter container?

How much pleasure can a liter container hold at standard temperature and pressure? Enquiring minds want to know. Do keep us posted.

 

[Farm Girl]

I have a question about the pressurized milk bottle extraction. Is there a benefit other than the fun factor for using nitrous oxide over CO2?
I never know.

It's a big rabbit hole we are down. Like Sue says- thinking about this is going to keep us all young. I'm inspired by your Chem reading, Canyon! I need to brush up myself.

About the cream whipper idea:
Nitrogen is much less reactive than CO2 is the short answer. If nitrogen is used to pressurize liquid it won't causing additional chemical reactions because it generally remains separate from the molecules it interacts with. When you make soda using a CO2 charger, the CO2 reacts with water to form CO3 (weak acid) which is why soda water is a tiny bit sour. CO2 can increase the risk of spoilage for fats by promoting oxidation, etc. Also, we are trying to drive carbons off during decarb, so it probably makes sense not to bathe our cannabis in additional carbons at any point in the process. Having said that, I ran into a home method using dry ice for extraction that looks interesting (scroll to bottom of link for home method):

CO2 Extraction: Your Complete Guide To CO2 Cannabis Oil - Honest Marijuana

We live in the boonies, so I don't have ready access to dry ice. I've been thinking that a mix of dried and decarbed cannabis in the whipper is where I'm going to start- decarbed for activated cannabinoids, smaller amount of dried to catch the terpenes. I've been busy with other stuff and haven't had a chance to start playing with my cream whipper yet. I'll report back as soon as I get to it...

 

[Blew Hiller]

How much pleasure can a liter container hold at standard temperature and pressure? Enquiring minds want to know.

I believe the answer, technically speaking, is a shit-ton (aka "shitload")

 

[SweetSue]

OMG.... Don't we love intuitive text?

Canyon.... How impressed am I to hear you're delving into chemistry for greater understanding. I'm getting ready to fall headlong into cellular biology so I can break down Cajin's post on how CCO kills cancer cells, so I'm thankful you guys are holding down this fort so well. This one'll take me a while to translate.

Farm Girl, enjoy that rabbit hole. It likely won't be the last one you fall into.

 

[Canyon]

This is pieced together from limited knowledge and it could all be wrong.

100 grams of cannabis at 25% total cannabinoid acids would contain and lose 3 grams of CO2 in a total carbolixation.

3 grams is 0.0683 mol.

0.0638 mol of CO2 in a 1 liter container will have

14.81 PSI at 32F
20.25 at 212
20.79 at 230
20.94 at 235
21.09 at 240
21.39 at 250.

These are pressures that are beyond the design limits of a pressure cooker. However they are not all that high. I think city water pressure is in the 50 to 80 range, car tires 30-40.

This has me thinking a large pipe nipple, some Teflon tape, a pressure gauge and another smaller nipple. Tap the larger nipple to make a T with the smaller one and add the gauge. Once you find the volume of the mouse trap, add the appropriate amount of buds, seal it up and immerse in a hot oil bath.

If I have it correct the pressure does not increase all that fast in the range we need.

Then there is the water to contend with.

10% of a 100g sample would be 10g.
1 mol H2O = 18.015g
10g/18.015 = 0.556 mole.


All we need to do is bring the water to 235F, the vapor pressure will climb to 20.94PSI and the pressure from the H2O and the CO2 will start condensing the H2O.

CO2 will remain a gas when cooled to room temp and my guess is that most of the H2O vapor will be reabsorbed into the buds.

Of the terpenes I have listed, there are only two that have boiling points below 235F (112.8C). Even those temperatures would be higher with the increased pressure.

If it actually works, it would probably work with fresh harvest.

Let me know what you think.

I never know

 

[Scientific]

This is pieced together from limited knowledge and it could all be wrong.

100 grams of cannabis at 25% total cannabinoid acids would contain and lose 3 grams of CO2 in a total carbolixation.

3 grams is 0.0683 mol.

0.0638 mol of CO2 in a 1 liter container will have

14.81 PSI at 32F
20.25 at 212
20.79 at 230
20.94 at 235
21.09 at 240
21.39 at 250.

These are pressures that are beyond the design limits of a pressure cooker. However they are not all that high. I think city water pressure is in the 50 to 80 range, car tires 30-40.

This has me thinking a large pipe nipple, some Teflon tape, a pressure gauge and another smaller nipple. Tap the larger nipple to make a T with the smaller one and add the gauge. Once you find the volume of the mouse trap, add the appropriate amount of buds, seal it up and immerse in a hot oil bath.

If I have it correct the pressure does not increase all that fast in the range we need.

Then there is the water to contend with.

10% of a 100g sample would be 10g.
1 mol H2O = 18.015g
10g/18.015 = 0.556 mole.



To vaporize 10g of water in a 1L container with the tempter at 235F the pressure would have to be 258PS.

However, all we need to do is bring the water to 235F, the vapor pressure will climb to 20.94PSI and the pressure from the H2O and the CO2 will start condensing the H2O.

CO2 will remain a gas when cooled to room temp and my guess is that most of the H2O vapor will be reabsorbed into the buds.

Of the terpenes I have listed, there are only two that have boiling points below 235F (112.8C). Even those temperatures would be higher with the increased pressure.

If it actually works, it would probably work with fresh harvest.

Let me know what you think.

I never know

That's very interesting... One thought: CO2 combines VERY readily with water, so it's possible (i.e. I would expect) that some of the CO2 gas will combine with any moisture in the vessel, form carbonic acid, and thus drop out of the pressure equation. The solution to that problem of course would be to dry the herb thoroughly first. Just a thought...

 

[Canyon]

Happy holidays!
Saturday I bought the parts for a prototype chamber. I could not find a threaded air valve so I put it together without one. I sealed up and heated it to around 240F. The gauge stayed at zero. Next I added one gram of water and reheated. It came up to around 25-26 psi at circa 240 and dropped back to zero when cooled.

Sunday I found an air valve and added it. I managed to find 15 grams of very dry popcorn that I crushed and put into a small paper bag. It went into the tube with 91 3/8 stainless steel hex nuts to bring the volume down some. The target temperature of the oil was 250 and best guess for the chamber, around 240. I went slow with the heating. After I was getting a reading, the pressure hovered around 3 pounds for about ten minutes then to 10lb in less than ten minutes. Another 15 and it was at 20psi. Then the increase started slowing down. 15 more took it to 24 and another 20 took it to 26 pounds where it stayed. I gave it an hour before removing it from the heat.

When it cooled the pressure was just under 4PSI. The math would have it around 7.3 for a complete decarb. Maybe, I never know, I could have had a leek, I could have the math wrong, Scientific's last post could be the answer. My money is on Scientific's scenario.

When I opened the container, the bag was wet/damp where it contacted the crumble. It dried to an oily discoloration. I weighed material and it had lost 0.5g. The chamber was slightly damp, not wet. The bag appeared to absorb most of the moisture.

The test had some issues. This build was only intended to find out if material could be decarbed this way and to work through any problems that show up, like moisture or the pan being too small. The chamber would not fit in the pan. It was about half out of the oil. That made the chamber temperature somewhat inaccurate. A deep stock pot would be better. The right angle pressure gauge does make a good handle but it is easy to bang it around when opening the chamber. The whole process is kind of messy.

There was the same burnt funky ABV smell that I got with the pressure cooker test. It either fades or I am getting used to it. Subjectively speaking, the PC decarb and this batch had more kick than they should in a pipe. I should vape a few bags in the interest of science.

Another issue is the galvanizing on the pipe. At first I was not that concerned with it. I mean, it is water pipe. The problem is, when I finished the run, the inside wall seemed to be lighter and had a chalky look. It did not rub off. The cannabis has no metallic taste or smell that I can detect over the burnt funky smell.

I want to try a green bud next. If I use a jar that will fit and screen the open end, I can invert it and any condensation should drain to the bottom of the cylinder. It could work.

I never know

Dream Catcher 1

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Please hold off on trying that batch until you research heated galvanized pipe. It's coated with zinc and at a certain temp it becomes quite toxic. I think welders have to take precautions when fabricating with galvanized material. Not sure of the temp that this occurs but be safe and check it out.

 

[Canyon]

Thanks Bucu,
I do vaguely remember something not good about zinc. I am getting some ideas for a stanless steal one that would have a bolt on lid rather than struggling with large pipe threads. That should be close to food grade.

I will do some toxicity research.

I never know

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Stainless would definitely be best option. There's a lot of info on welders getting flu like symptoms when working with galvanized material. While the melting point is much higher than you'd ever reach, there's evidence some degradation begins at 392f which is still higher than your operating temps but decomposition is evidenced by white residue on the surface. I'd definitely be wary.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Forgot to say thank you for your research. Looking forward to see how this plays out.

 

[Scientific]

Please hold off on trying that batch until you research heated galvanized pipe. It's coated with zinc and at a certain temp it becomes quite toxic. I think welders have to take precautions when fabricating with galvanized material. Not sure of the temp that this occurs but be safe and check it out.

Caution is a good thing, but zinc is everywhere--the ducting in our air supplies and our metal garbage cans are coated with it, pennies are made of it, and it's even a required nutrient at low levels.

And it doesn't melt until it hits 800 F. I think there is a huge difference between being a welder who is vaporizing the stuff and heating it to, what, 250 F?

Me, I wouldn't worry about it too much...