Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Scientific]

that's exactly the clusterf*ck I want to avoid. Thanks for the tip but I'll be trying the dry ice method since I have a friend who uses it. Besides, dry ice gives better results.

The suggested process is a little complicated, but I think "clusterfuck" isn't the best choice of words (and it's kind of a harsh comeback to someone trying to help you).

(Websters defined "clusterfuck" as "a complex and utterly disordered and mismanaged situation : a muddled mess.")

 

[CCOiler]

that's exactly the clusterf*ck I want to avoid. Thanks for the tip but I'll be trying the dry ice method since I have a friend who uses it. Besides, dry ice gives better results.

Any chance you can document your process and let us know what your yield is?

 

[SweetSue]

that's exactly the clusterf*ck I want to avoid. Thanks for the tip but I'll be trying the dry ice method since I have a friend who uses it. Besides, dry ice gives better results.

This method looks intriguing. I've actually been casually looking for this process for about a year and a half, so thank you so much for the link. That Source by ExtractCraft looks well worth the money too. One of those and a vacuum oven and you'd be set to go.

 

[HealthFreak]

Hey Canyon ,
I did not have knee replacement but had tons of scar tissue and pain and knee would pop out from a dirt bike injury many years ago on my knee, I got off unlimited Vicodin in my 20's from taking bromelain and serrapeptase
Bromelain is enzymes from a pineapple good for inflammation and is said to be a natural pain killer
Serrapeptase is enzyme from a special Japanese silk worm that is a anti inflammatory and dissolves scar tissue
I have not taken a pain pill about 14 years and got back to active lifestyle, sorry about going off topic

Serrapeptase for Inflammation - Hanna Kroeger Blog

Scorpio,
Thanks, I was going to add a short description to each test. By the time I had most of the images in the right order the preview post option was acting a little weird. So I posted it before I lost the whole thing.

The tests are listed with the oldest one first. The top of each test has the info about the test. Beside the Type: line it will say Flower or Oil. The Test: line will have the actual test type.

The cannabinoid tests are offered at 3 levels. The Express Test is a reasonably priced way to get the information that is on the first test listed. It is a 'while you wait' offering. You can even take your material home with you. It is nondestructive. The other two have more information and are more accurate .

The terpene tests have 2 levels.

For the most part, I have ordered the Estended teats for the flowers to get the complete profile and the standard tests for the oils to use for comparisons for both cannabinoids and terpenes.

Tests 9 through 12 are of Extreme OG. They are the ones that we just got the terpene results on 9/1. I had intended to have the flower samples then the oil samples after them. Oh well.

11 a d 12 are the flower samples and 9 and 10 are the infused oil.

The flower sample was air dried.

The oil sample was nearly fresh harvest. It was washed, trimmed and placed in a refrigerator for about two days. The idea was to oven decarb at low temperature without adding any extra water. The rest is in post 109.

There was another reason to get the flower terpene sample. At the time I ordered the Extreme tests I had terpene tests for two ghost train plants (tests 3 and 6) as well as the Nightmare Cookies (test 8). The Ghost Train was air dried and the NC was low n slow dried. The Ghost plants had about15mg/g of terpenes and the NC had about 4mg/g. Both are 80/20 sativa dominant plants. I thought that with the extended drying time the NC plant may be losing more terpenes than we thought.

The Extreme plant is 70/30 Indicia dominant. The Extreme flower test actually tested with less terpenes than the NC plant. That would tend to rule out large losses from LnS drying.

My wife had a knee replacement a few months ago and she needs to have some scar tissue removed plus whatever else the find in Albuquerque. The preop appointment is the 11^th. And. Surgery about ten days later. That will give us time decide what will buy us the most.

Hopefully, I can get another post up today about the samples we have. There is also the option of running a new test.

I was going to smoke what is left of the NC buds from the original test batch and I am going to smoke most of them. I'll hold a few for whatever. I have a smallish plant due for harvest in about 10 days and another that is at day 32 of flower. Plus I have a lot of jars with a small amount of something green in them and I need the jars. Sigh, I'll get by.

Best

 

[bebecillo]

The suggested process is a little complicated, but I think "clusterfuck" isn't the best choice of words (and it's kind of a harsh comeback to someone trying to help you).

(Websters defined "clusterfuck" as "a complex and utterly disordered and mismanaged situation : a muddled mess.")

Not trying to offend anyone, but the method linked is a lot like qwet but with extra steps as both use alcohol and then reduce the tincture, but ice/dry ice and frozen buds + alcohol dont extract as much plant material, giving a smoothet experience and a better yield

 

[Kicknitup1]

Back in Study Hall someone said this- "The ability of oils to extract weed oils has been tested! Money spent, data reduced ,results publish. So let's not redux it?? High times articles.. first one was a four method comparison of hot oil extraction. First article compared receipts. Changing oils was a second experiment. The coconut at .85, ghee .73. Butter .60 has to do with the oils chain length and ability for things to attach."

I watched those High Times videos. They were helpful. But- I'm not sure what they proved in the area of various carrier oils. Yes, I saw the results. But in my opinion, they did not show the "ability" of those 3 oils to hold THC. That's the way the tests came out yes. But it is unclear to me what they proved. I also saw Ruffhouse do a similar thing with evoo & coconut oil with evoo the winner. Sorry, I don't buy any of it. There were other things at play. I still say coconut has the most "room" but they all have plenty. Each medium chain molecule has the ability to soak THC up and there are a LOT of them. According to Avogadro's number, there would be 6.022 x 10 to the 23rd power of molecules in a mole of solution. Uhhh, that's a lot. So there is room in all the oils. There are other things at play.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Thanks for that.

I've gotta say I'm really skeptical of expensive gadgets. So has anyone gotten good, scientifically valid numbers to support that this thing is worth buying? I'm not asking for a personal tutorial, I just don't wanna have to read hundreds of pages to get to the gist. (Maybe that is asking for a personal tutorial.)

Well I did say that in THIS particular test the Nova achieved a commendable 98.2% decarb & no degradation. However, I wish you would read it all. Some is off topic, yes. Sorry, it's the nature of these threads. But, we do want to reach well reasoned conclusions....not jump to conclusions. I posted the data or "facts" in my outline of the testing. We want as many eyes as possible on the process as possible. There are undeniable facts in there. But exactly what caused what??? The big WHY is the extraction efficiency. Why not more? What is the bottleneck so to speak??? TIP: It aint how many medium chain triglycerides we were working with. Not saying more doesn't make it easier, just that any of them have enough.

 

[SweetSue]

Back in Study Hall someone said this- "The ability of oils to extract weed oils has been tested! Money spent, data reduced ,results publish. So let's not redux it?? High times articles.. first one was a four method comparison of hot oil extraction. First article compared receipts. Changing oils was a second experiment. The coconut at .85, ghee .73. Butter .60 has to do with the oils chain length and ability for things to attach."

I watched those High Times videos. They were helpful. But- I'm not sure what they proved in the area of various carrier oils. Yes, I saw the results. But in my opinion, they did not show the "ability" of those 3 oils to hold THC. That's the way the tests came out yes. But it is unclear to me what they proved. I also saw Ruffhouse do a similar thing with evoo & coconut oil with evoo the winner. Sorry, I don't buy any of it. There were other things at play. I still say coconut has the most "room" but they all have plenty. Each medium chain molecule has the ability to soak THC up and there are a LOT of them. According to Avogadro's number, there would be 6.022 x 10 to the 23rd power of molecules in a mole of solution. Uhhh, that's a lot. So there is room in all the oils. There are other things at play.

There are other factors when considering the carrier oil, particularly if using that oil as a medicine. EVOO has benefits above and beyond its ability to hold more cannabinoids that make it the desirable choice for many applications. If you're looking for quick onset of THC euphoria, or you're treating liver disease, go with coconut for faster metabolization. If your intent is to get more cannabinoids into the system then olive oil is your choice.

The Italians did a major study as well and determined that olive oil was capable of holding the largest volume of cannabinoids. They obviously have a vested interest in having EVOO be the preferred choice, but the study was thorough.

 

[SweetSue]

Not trying to offend anyone, but the method linked is a lot like qwet but with extra steps as both use alcohol and then reduce the tincture, but ice/dry ice and frozen buds + alcohol dont extract as much plant material, giving a smoothet experience and a better yield

I'd be thrilled if you found it in yourself to document an oil run using this method. It helps so much to get the finer details that so often get overlooked, such as how do you personally prepare the flowers for processing? Do you break them up by hand, and if so, how small do you make the chunks? I've learned there a always a million and one details that pop up, so detail is greatly appreciated. We thrive on minutiae.

I'm really interested in seeing it done. I can certainly understand why it gets better results.

It might be better to report on this somewhere other than this thread. Feel free to do so at the study hall, if you get the inspiration to do that documentation.

 

[bebecillo]

I'd be thrilled if you found it in yourself to document an oil run using this method. It helps so much to get the finer details that so often get overlooked, such as how do you personally prepare the flowers for processing? Do you break them up by hand, and if so, how small do you make the chunks? I've learned there a always a million and one details that pop up, so detail is greatly appreciated. We thrive on minutiae.

I'm really interested in seeing it done. I can certainly understand why it gets better results.

It might be better to report on this somewhere other than this thread. Feel free to do so at the study hall, if you get the inspiration to do that documentation.

I'll be harvesting at the end of october. Will do the dry ice guide to share with the community.

 

[Canyon]

As of now I am holding 3 samples that were taken at intervals before oil sample 4 described in post 103. The idea was to use Kickn's tCheck to start plotting some infusion numbers for fresh harvest buds in oil without water added, and test for decarb if needed with lab test. The tested sample (#4 in post 103) had low decarb numbers on the OG 2 Oil test numbered 9. (THC 1.14mg/g compared to THCA 9.3mg/g)

The last three lab tests 13-15 are Nova decarbed cannabinoids from Nightmare Cookies flowers and the infused oil from them. 14 is the infused oil and 15 is an additional extraction of the left behind material. We have a sample saved at 4 hours and another with a 2hr oil presoak before a 4hr infusion.

The last two samples are Nightmare Cookies flower and infused oil that has been decarbed on high for 90 minutes at 6000 feet in a pressure cooker. Before committing to testing these, it would be a good idea get some input from anyone who has experimented with the process. 90 minutes may not be a good place to start testing. I could run another test with a different time if we decided it would better.

When we chose the last samples tested, we chose the minimum number needed to get some comparisons. Kickn and I were over budget personally and did not want to dip into other funding more than necessary.

The lab has offered two free extended tests. Kickn was overly generous the entire time he was here and he left some money for some of the earlier tests. Two extended oil tests would come to $200 + 16 tax and I want to add some back to the cause. So we still have an operating budget. We just need to choose wisely.

I need some time to compare some of the terpene information we have and comment on some of the newer posts.

Thanks for the support.
Best

 

[Canyon]

Hey Canyon ,
I did not have knee replacement but had tons of scar tissue and pain and knee would pop out from a dirt bike injury many years ago on my knee, I got off unlimited Vicodin in my 20's from taking bromelain and serrapeptase
Bromelain is enzymes from a pineapple good for inflammation and is said to be a natural pain killer
Serrapeptase is enzyme from a special Japanese silk worm that is a anti inflammatory and dissolves scar tissue
I have not taken a pain pill about 14 years and got back to active lifestyle, sorry about going off topic

Serrapeptase for Inflammation - Hanna Kroeger Blog

Thanks, I will look for the two while I am up North.

 

[Canyon]

Can't find the link but it was something like this and then heating the tincture to concentrate it

Super-Cooled QWET Wash for Cannabis Extraction Using Dry Ice — Cannabis Extraction by IchiBanCrafter

Greetings!

Ever Clear and dry ice,
The link is a well written article. I have used dry ice to keep things cold when making keif with mixed results but had not considered using it with alcohol extraction.

My freezer will hold between -15 and -20 so I have been doing colder extractions than most people.

The pictures are showing almost no green so the colder temps must be helping. However, the idea of doing a single extraction and longer times does not make a lot of sense to me. Old school QWET methods call for 3 rather short washes. The only reason I can think of for the single soak is to keep the amount of alcohol used down. Except, they were reclaiming the alcohol. Would two or three medium length washes be better?

There is a way to bring the temp down even lower by adding dry ice to the alcohol, it boils at first even cold. The article said -40 could lower be even better?

I never know

 

[bebecillo]

I have access provided to dry ice and liquid nitrogen provided I pay my share when my buddy buys for his unrelated projects. I would put the flower in a jar and shake every 15 minutes or so. Since the nova decarbs so well and keeps terpenes maybe using a nova + dry ice to extract would do wonders.

Wished I lived nearby to experiment and test the results.

 

[overlord]

Ever Clear and dry ice,
The link is a well written article. I have used dry ice to keep things cold when making keif with mixed results but had not considered using it with alcohol extraction.

My freezer will hold between -15 and -20 so I have been doing colder extractions than most people.

The pictures are showing almost no green so the colder temps must be helping. However, the idea of doing a single extraction and longer times does not make a lot of sense to me. Old school QWET methods call for 3 rather short washes. The only reason I can think of for the single soak is to keep the amount of alcohol used down. Except, they were reclaiming the alcohol. Would two or three medium length washes be better?

There is a way to bring the temp down even lower by adding dry ice to the alcohol, it boils at first even cold. The article said -40 could lower be even better?

I never know

I used the very method in the link shown, and use the source one turbo. Last run was 125 grams of Jack herrer divided into three mason jars. After freezing the ethanol and herb separately for 2 hours in 75 pounds of dry ice pellets (they only charged me $30, so why not?) completely covering the jars. I combined the ethanol and herb of two jars, soaked as instructed for one hour and strained through a unbleached coffee filter and kitchen strainer (small screen size). I then replaced strained solution back into jar and put back on ice for another hour, then strained through a buchner filter, end result was a clear golden solution. The next day I had one jar left, while soaking the herb/ethanol combo for an hour I fell asleep. what was supposed to be an hour soak, ended up being two hours. I ended up with an almost golden solution yet had some green tint to it.

The hour long soak in dry ice does indeed produce clear golden oil, but don't go any longer.

 

[overlord]

There are other factors when considering the carrier oil, particularly if using that oil as a medicine. EVOO has benefits above and beyond its ability to hold more cannabinoids that make it the desirable choice for many applications. If you're looking for quick onset of THC euphoria, or you're treating liver disease, go with coconut for faster metabolization. If your intent is to get more cannabinoids into the system then olive oil is your choice.

The Italians did a major study as well and determined that olive oil was capable of holding the largest volume of cannabinoids. They obviously have a vested interest in having EVOO be the preferred choice, but the study was thorough.

For the Bio Bombs, is flax seed oil no longer the best way?

 

[SweetSue]

For the Bio Bombs, is flax seed oil no longer the best way?

Flaxseed oil is so difficult to work with that many have abandoned it as a carrier oil for the biobombs. It's nearly impossible to get it to mix with the CCO.

It's still preferred if you're doing the CannaBudwig. It's an integral part of that process.

 

[Kicknitup1]

"The Italians did a major study as well and determined that olive oil was capable of holding the largest volume of cannabinoids. They obviously have a vested interest in having EVOO be the preferred choice, but the study was thorough."

And that may be true. If so, it defies all the molecular reasoning that was used to prove coconut oil was best. So if all that med. chain triglycerides stuff is inapplicable, then what pray tell is the reason some oils work better? OR, are all MCTs not created equal? ie: some grab THC better than others. I don't claim to know exactly the placement of the carbon & hydrogen atoms or what leeway they have before they are really something else.

We have several things going here. 1. Still, all of them have plenty of room. 2. Looking at efficiency of extraction (75-85%) and comparing that to the fact that ADDITIONAL THC can be added to the carrier oil in a later extraction, It's beginning to sound like ANY oil just grabs the low hanging fruit and leaves the more difficult (deeper in plant mtl?) behind. If the oil was saturated, nothing would be gained with the second extraction with new mtl.

 

[SweetSue]

I'll be harvesting at the end of october. Will do the dry ice guide to share with the community.

Oooo.... I'll mark my calander. I'm excited.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Ever Clear and dry ice,
The link is a well written article. I have used dry ice to keep things cold when making keif with mixed results but had not considered using it with alcohol extraction.

My freezer will hold between -15 and -20 so I have been doing colder extractions than most people.

The pictures are showing almost no green so the colder temps must be helping. However, the idea of doing a single extraction and longer times does not make a lot of sense to me. Old school QWET methods call for 3 rather short washes. The only reason I can think of for the single soak is to keep the amount of alcohol used down. Except, they were reclaiming the alcohol. Would two or three medium length washes be better?

There is a way to bring the temp down even lower by adding dry ice to the alcohol, it boils at first even cold. The article said -40 could lower be even better?

I never know

I think short as possible is going to be the way to go. The longer it sits, the warmer it gets. And, probably picks up other stuff by hanging around too long.

BTW, is apx 85% extraction efficiency with QWET about the accepted norm? Or, am I dazed & confused. Either is always a possibility.