Critique my Living Soil recipe

[Diatomacious]

This is a sample of the base mix... sea salt was added @ 4 t to brick. Phosphorous only registers @ 0.75 ppm which is very low. Potassium is @ 93 ppm which is low. Nitrogen is at 4.36 ppm which is low. The pH is a mystery to me as it usually tests out at 5.9.

I forgot to mention the most interesting thing about this sample. This sample had the base mix (coco, perlite, vermiculite) as well as 2 c earth worm castings per gallon mix and the sea salt. So to point out the obvious... my store bought worm castings had basically 0 nitrogen, phosphorous or potassium (I was thinking 3 g nitrogen from the 2 c). The only thing these store bought worm castings are good for is moisture retention.

 

[Diatomacious]

Latest tests are back in and here are the results.

This is a sample of the base mix with coco coir, perlite, vermiculite and 4 t of sea salt per 5 kg brick of coco. Sodium and chlorine are way high (though these would flush out with watering). Potassium is also @ 77 ppm while phosphorous is @ 3.9 ppm and nitrogen is almost nonexistant @ 1.5 ppm

This is the base mix with an additional 1.5 T feather meal, 1 t humic ore and 1/8 t oyster shell per gallon soil. The feather meal nitrogen has yet to affect the nitrogen level in the soil and must need to decompose before registering on this test, though my plants seem to detect it as they show burn when levels are too high. This sample had 1 week cook time. This makes me wonder about my previous assessment that the samples were switched at the lab. The extra nitrogen in the previous sample must have come from the worm castings (they seem to be hit or miss with nitrogen levels, perhaps a dead worm spiked levels in that sample.

 

[Diatomacious]

Here is a sample of the coco coir, perlite, vermiculite base mix with no added sea salt. Note the drop in potassium levels. Perhaps my coco coir source does not have the potassium that I had thought in it. Coir nutrient levels in this brand of coir won't even have to be worried about when mixing the fertilizer ratio for amending.

This is a sample of the above no salt base with added 1 T feather meal, 1 T kelp meal, 1 t humic ore and 1/8 t oyster shell. Potassium levels have increased due to nutrient leaching from the kelp. Chlorine is also very high for a hydro (soil less) mix. Nitrogen levels were undetectable by this test without further cooking (keep warm and moist), perhaps a better choice for nitrogen would have been blood meal (have to try that in the future).

So where to go from here. Knowing that an ideal ratio of NPK for a soil less mix is 20-1-25, I mixed a batch with that approximate ratio. Now it all boils down to a question of concentration (how much to add per gallon soil). From past experience with nitrogen levels, I selected a concentration that did not exceed my max nitrogen level (the point at which the plant begins to burn). I will let this mix cook for several months and then resubmit a sample at that time. My mix is very simple and focuses on amount of plant nutrient as well as ratio instead of relying on the ability of a plant to acclimate to an unsuitable concentration of nutrient (think nasty taste and cough). So far plants love it... will have to wait for cook time before testing though.

 

[bobrown14]

Ca to Mg ratio is way off. Not enough Ca. Add in some calcium carbonate - can be oyster shell flour or food grade Calcium Carbonate.

You wanna get really snappy get some Crustacean meal - that will give you your long medium and short term Ca + other goodies. Also add some more Gypsum.

I usually do a cup per 7.5 gal of each to my mix.

We really need an abundance of Ca in the soil for these plants. Extra aint gonna hurt anything. Too much N and not enough Ca and too much Mg gonna have issues pretty quick.

You growing in a coco mix or soil mix?

 

[Diatomacious]

You are missing the point... these are just sample batches I mixed for shits and giggles, and to test the effectiveness of a laboratory analysis on an organic media. My real mix will have to cook in for several months before I can submit it for testing and get reliable results according to what I have learned here. Also of note is the typical analysis for kelp meal which is a little different from the guaranteed minimum of 1-0.1-2. Here is a link to the pdf. Typical analysis is 1.4-0.3-2.7 for Ascophyllum nodosum, of course variations can occur in a natural product. Was pushing my nitrogen a little too high in my final mix, had to cut it a little. This also means that a mined mineral supplement may be required to hit the elusive 20-1-25 ratio organically.

 

[bobrown14]

You are missing the point... these are just sample batches I mixed for shits and giggles, and to test the effectiveness of a laboratory analysis on an organic media. My real mix will have to cook in for several months before I can submit it for testing and get reliable results according to what I have learned here.

Probably... trying to figure out what your goal is??

I'm a huge proponent of Kelp meal. Thorvin is but one version.

Not sure why you say your soil needs to "cook" for several months?

 

[Diatomacious]

Probably... trying to figure out what your goal is??

THE goal is to mix a batch of soil with the proper proportion of ingredients so that nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are at the optimal concentrations for plant growth. If you just add a bunch of stuff to your soil your bud will taste like it and your plants will suffer, this is what farmers deal with every year.

I'm a huge proponent of Kelp meal. Thorvin is but one version.

Kelp meal is very good for a soilless mix due to it's NPK ratio, however, according to the typical analysis the usual NPK ratio for kelp meal is 5-1-9. This is quite a good leap from the ideal ratio for a soilless mix, therefore, kelp meal alone is not enough of a complete fertilizer if you are doing hydroponic (which is what soilless is).

Not sure why you say your soil needs to "cook" for several months?

I'm already have plants growing in it as we speak. For a laboratory analysis, though, the organic NPK will have to decompose into the inorganic compounds of N (NH4, NO3), P2O5 and K20. It is these inorganic compounds that a laboratory analysis can detect and that requires microbial activity which in turn requires several months of "cook" time. I'm just saying keep it moist and warm to let the bacteria do their work when I say "cook".

Sorry this is so confusing... it is the exact thing farmers deal with every year around planting time and the state agricultural dept. is what helps them not go broke by offering free soil analysis so they don't overuse fertilizer and damage their crops.

 

[bobrown14]

So true on the County Extension Service. I use it every spring. Cost of shipping for me and I don't even think $9 covers the ship but its close enough.

Awesome.

OK - Kelp meal has every macro and micro nutrient a plant needs to live and thrive.

It's been a thing for farmers for many generations.

Why not just test the soil the plants are currently growing in?

They do several tests not just SOM. Lab equipment can measure the future expectations as well as current.

It's very interesting what they do.

I run no-till in containers. Amend very lightly each round. Current soil is 20 or more runs lost count.

Good tasty too.

Current flower is a keeper but the clones never made it. Sadly

DSC_0034.JPG

• bobrown14
• Apr 6, 2019

Volcano top

 

[Diatomacious]

Why not just test the soil the plants are currently growing in?

They do several tests not just SOM. Lab equipment can measure the future expectations as well as current.

It's very interesting what they do.

DSC_0034.JPG

• bobrown14
• Apr 6, 2019

Volcano top

I'll have to call down there and talk with someone about what soil test they suggest for determining NPK for an organic soil mix that has not decayed yet. Testing the soil they are currently growing in was not very revealing with the saturated media extraction method. What soil test would you recommend for determining NPK levels in a freshly mixed batch? I just used past experience to determine an appropriate nitrogen level and then set my P and K using the 20-1-25 ratio... so far the plants seem to be loving it... we'll see if that continues through bud formation.

Is that one of your plants in the photo? Nice bud formation... looks like too much phosphorous according to the extra dark green in the leaves... the hairs on top of the bud are also burnt off (which too much fertilizer will do). Not bitchin at ya just a friendly observation. Mine are still in veg currently, be a couple weeks before I can post a pic of what the new mix can do (crossing fingers). Initial growth is very promising as plants look better than ever.

 

[Diatomacious]

The soil test works great for what it's supposed to do, a predictive analysis of fertilizer requirements (predictive meaning before you apply the fertilizer). I have a couple samples from the lawn, garden and a flower bed that I'm waiting for results on. Once results are back I can better estimate the fertilizer requirement of the soil, no matter whether organic or chemical (they even recommend an amount if you tell them what you are growing).

 

[Diatomacious]

Well God keeps naggin' me to spit it out so I either did real good on this mix and he wants to share with everyone or I f'd up and he wants to shame me.

I started off with the nitrogen level which for me is around 1 g per gallon soil mix. My plants show slight burn tendency at about 1.2 g per gallon soil mix so I cut it back to 1 g. The fertilizer part should be the same for most soilless mixes (coco, sphagnum, or whatever) as long as there is no other fertilizer present in the media when you begin. When I say 1 gallon of soil I usually use a 2 gallon bucket filled with loose mix to the top for a measure (I mix about 8-12 gallons at a time, all I can fit comfortably in the mixer). I do not pack the bucket with the mix.

Per gallon soil mix:
2 t blood meal
1.5 T kelp meal
15/64 t potassium sulfate (mined not manufactured)
1 t humic ore (plants seem to like humic acid but not essential)
1/8 t oyster shell (for pH only)

By my calculations (which are probably wrong but not too far off I hope) the blood (12-0-0) supplies 0.75 g N, the kelp (1.4-0.3-2.7) supplies 0.23 g N 0.05 g P and 0.45 g K, the potassium sulfate (0-0-50) supplies 0.75 g K if you take the weight of each and multiply by the NPK percentage number. Total NPK is 0.98 g N, 0.05 g P and 1.20 g K (a ratio of 19.75-1-24.12). Looking up the typical analysis for blood meal it is actually 13.25-1-0.6 so my calculations are wrong if that is true but not by much (hey don't complain, I'm leaving room for improvement, wink wink). Trying to nail a 20-1-25 ratio with organic amendments is a bit of a bitch. I had tried a mix with 4 T kelp meal per gallon with blood for nitrogen but plants are showing signs of excess phosphorous already so I will probably re-pot (but they are doing pretty darn good if you ask just a slight bit of an orange or yellow to that green, a tiny bit). I'm thinking my pH will turn out OK with that oyster content (coco is 5.9 out of bag) but time and my handheld meter will tell on that one.

This mix is ready for planting as soon as you mix it up... it will "cook" (decay) over time and release nutrient to the plant throughout the growth cycle... water only (I like rain but RO will do to). I usually just pour any excess runoff back into the same bucket it came from (don't want the K to leech away in the runoff).

 

[bobrown14]

What soil test would you recommend for determining NPK levels in a freshly mixed batch?

Is that one of your plants in the photo? Nice bud formation... looks like too much phosphorous according to the extra dark green in the leaves... the hairs on top of the bud are also burnt off (which too much fertilizer will do). Not bitchin at ya just a friendly observation. Mine are still in veg currently, be a couple weeks before I can post a pic of what the new mix can do (crossing fingers). Initial growth is very promising as plants look better than ever.

I just send in my samples - the County Extension Service does the testing. They have a pretty high tech lab. They make adjustments in testing to my soil mix as they see it's a fresh mix.

I'm a worm guy so testing soil is above the pay grade.


On the bud pic - good observation - trichomes on the top cola in the pic were singed by running my new Quantum Board full tilt. She didn't like it. First time I ran that strain.

On the darker color - this one has purple, dark temps dipping down to low 60s (15C). She's in the back or probably all purple. Makes pretty pics and sometimes the trichomes get purple too!

I've turned down the lamp a little bit and now I have this:

Bouncing back mode right before harvest!

DSC_0001 (4).JPG

• bobrown14
• Apr 10, 2019

Mandarin ZkittleZ

DSC_0001 (3).JPG

• bobrown14
• Apr 10, 2019

Mandarin ZkittleZ - close up

 

[Diatomacious]

Looks nice and oily on that trichome close up, I'd love to test potency on that myself (I've got some crummy genetics currently). Got some clones in Colorado, ordered some seeds off the net... it's all garbage to me. Makes some nice organic cigarettes I guess though.

 

[bobrown14]

Hit me off list I'll get you a care package in about a week!

This strain is actually a breeder test.
I got a pack of 6 seeds 4 were male (fem seeds)
1 dud and this.

The one that lived and turned out to be a keeper. clones did not take either. So Last of the Mahicons here. Too bad was easy to grow. Didn't do anything but water in a #4 nursery pot start to finish in old soil - a few foiler IPM sprays is all.

Not going to be a big yielder but small container test. I usually up-pot from a #3 pot to a 7.5gal no-til at flip but decided to see how big it would grow in the #4. Maybe keep using #4s and mix with 7.5gal pots.

7.5gal usually get 4-7 zips dried trimmed depending on genetics. These #4s It's usually 2-3 zips dried trimmed.

Now you got me thinking about soil testing more. I usually test at the beginning a few days after mixing just send in my sample.

Thinking I should test my soil now after like 20 runs and see whats going on with the soil and what I might need to amend if anything. Of course compare to my first test of same soil I got in 2016.

 

[Diatomacious]

Sounds about right on harvest... I use 2 gal pots (actual is about 1.75 gal) and harvest around 2 oz per plant, sometimes 3.

Testing soil right after mixing proved pointless for me (at least for nitrogen determination), it did tell me that my coco coir has very little nutrient in it out of the bag though. I'll have mine tested after about 4 months... after harvest I'll send in some of the soil they grew in. This should give me an accurate enough idea of soil nutrient concentrations. If you test your soil now it should be able to tell you your NPK and micronutrient concentrations very accurately, plenty of cook time by now.

 

[bobrown14]

Any pot size smaller that #4 in organic soil I start to see Ca deficiencies. Same soil. Weird how #3 is just a tad small, #4 works great but smaller plants.

Likely the plants get root bound in a #3 without feeding soluble nutrients.

Could be the interaction with the mycos - more soil the better the nutrient breakdown from the mycos.

What do you use for mycos?

 

[Nunyabiz]

For my taste, 25 gallon is the absolute smallest I will use for my Living Organic no-till.
If I had the room I would go with a 4'x8' fabric beds for indoor.
But for a single plant in LOS no-till 25 gallon is my designated minimum.

I usually get between as little as 7 to over 10oz per plant.
My solid average is about 8 1/2oz per plant.

To me I need at least that size to get a full little ecosystem going, room for the worms to roam, plenty of soil for the roots to spread and for the mycorrhazae to colonize.

 

[Diatomacious]

Any pot size smaller that #4 in organic soil I start to see Ca deficiencies. Same soil. Weird how #3 is just a tad small, #4 works great but smaller plants.

Sounds like an overfertilization problem to me. Too much NPK and the plant has trouble getting water (remember carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are the macro-macro nutrient). When that happens it grows more root to look for another source, then can't find it and so grows more root.

What do you use for mycos?

I usually just add a little photosynthesis plus to the first water in... after that I don't worry about it.

I like to stick with the smaller 2 gallon pots inside and also keep the plants around 2-3 feet tall by harvest, makes them easy to move around, take outside on a sunny day, or move em to clean out the grow area (get's dirty quick). You need 4 feet of clearance (3' 6" min) from top of plant to 1000 watt light.

 

[Diatomacious]

Hit me off list I'll get you a care package in about a week!

Can you message me. Must be too new or too dumb to figure out how to message.

 

[Diatomacious]

My coocoonut mix is now registering at 7.2 pH so I'll have to cut any oyster from future batches (good thing I only mixed 8 gallons). Without the worm castings the pH is pretty unstable in the coocoo. The nutrient ratio seems pretty good so far. A batch I mixed with some promix I had sitting around is doing well so far with a pH of 6.4, the plants get greener every day. My older mix with 4T kelp is beginning to show signs of phosphorous burn and will have to be swapped out for a new mix (new foliage at tips is dwarfed). The burn could also stem from the fact that kelp has a high chlorine level, but I'm betting it's the phosphorous.