Critique my Living Soil recipe

bobrown14 said:
D - why are you cutting the fish bone meal?? I would think its very similar to Crustacean meal that I use. I actually add fish bone meal to my compost bins. Then use that compost in my soil mix.

Conrad
Interesting you asked about the Ca:Mg ratio. I was always trying to reach about 6:1 or more but my current mix is only like >3:1 Not even sure why my Mg level is so high?? For Ca I use Oyster Shell flour/crustacean meal/Gypsum.
Maybe the rock dust I use has a lot of Mg in it??



That was probably 20 flower rounds ago too. I do add in some Ca from time to time with my amendments.

Soil PH @ 6.3 is good for me. Sweet spot or close enough.

This on is the current soil I'm in now mixed it in 2017:



soil_sample_pic.jpg
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That might a problem for you. The lowest ratio I know to be working for OG strains is 6:1, but 7:1 for most of the strains. You should add more calcium carbonate or push more in drenches, especially in bloom.
 
Well I couldn't wait for the lab results so I mixed a fresh batch without the worm castings. Potted up 2 fresh clones and so far so good. Left em in the sun and wilted slightly after about 1 hour... brought in to shade and stood up in 30 minutes so all good there. Clone in worm castings would not even stand up if left in the shade all night, it was a little unhealthy to begin with but it was standing before I potted it. I'm almost willing to bet the lab report shows increased phosphorous in my mix do to the castings. Now I'm down to basics... here is a list of the current ingredients:

coco coir
perlite
vermiculite (may cut out waiting for lab results)
feather meal
humic ore
oyster shell

I'm currently shooting for a 6.2 pH with the oyster shell from data obtained from previous mixes (always keep good notes).

Edit: Almost forgot to list the Sea-90 agricultural (though you could use food grade) sea salt for trace elements.

Double Edit: After second or third attempt at full sun, brand newly rooted clones are taking full sun no problem. Initial wilted clone had longer shade and a spritz with 6.0 rain water but is now firmer and in full sun... time will tell.
 
God watches over you and is with you in all you do, however, he has no qualms about whippin' yo' ass if you step out of line so remember... Do justice to others that you may receive the same in return... and don't forget theft creates ignorance so keep ya nose clean. Amen
 
Interesting... I'm not very religious.

I'm sure my worms prey to the rain gods.
I prey to the worm gods.

Oh and pay very close attention to Karma. :Namaste:

Getting back to soil.

Diatomacious - I'm confused. You mentioned "soil-less" when getting a soil test done and then you mentioned mixing up a new batch of soil???

My confusion is that I "thought" you were mixing a "living soil"??

In a living soil recipe, worm castings are a main stay as not only do they contain many many nutrients in a soluble form for plant uptake, they also contain a crap ton of beneficial bacteria.

Talk to us about how you intend to use this soil mix you're making please?
 
@bobrown14 Just saying there are worse things out there than arrest so be careful (fear of God)... not trying to scare you into a life of celibacy or anything you are free man.

Just so you know I mixed the soil I'm using now about an hour before I potted the clones. I don't worry about all the living soil hoopla. What a living soil means is that when you put organic matter in the soil and keep it moist then beneficial bacteria will naturally find there way to the organic matter and begin to decay it (leave a sandwich on the counter for a couple days and see what happens). What organic fertilizer really is is a time release fertilizer. Not all the nitrogen or whatever you add to the soil is immediately available to the plant. Much of it is tied up in a nonsoluble form that is basically like a rock to the plant root. Some of the non-available nitrogen will react in the soil with the water and become ionized. Once ionized the nitrogen is water soluble and may be taken up by the plant or flushed out of the pot. Once some of the nitrogen is removed more of the non-available nitrogen will become available through soil chemistry reactions replacing almost all of what was originally plant available. These reactions are on a very small scale as only about 1% of all plant matter is composed of soil nutrient, the rest of the 99% is air and water (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen).

Edit: Forgot to mention do not add toxic stuff to your organic soil mix (like chemical nutrient), these can have detrimental effects on the bacteria populations in the soil. If you would not eat it do not put it in your soil basically (of course you would not eat feather meal but you see what I am saying about harmful chemicals... rain water only). You want a clean healthy environment for the bacteria to live in... what they leave behind the plant eats then you eat.

Double Edit: What you need to worry about is the chemical composition of the organic material you are adding. You need to get at least nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium within the optimal ranges for a "soilless" (Saturated Media Extraction) test. Soilless means there are no crushed rock in the mix (sand, silt or clay). If these are present they add a lot of minerals to the soil which compete with the nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium for ionized spots in the soil that is why there is a different test for outdoor soil than for potting mixes. When I said I was mixing up a new batch of soil I really meant a new batch of soilless... bad data compilation on my part sry.

Triple Edit: Let me specify. Anything you add to the soil mix can and will affect the NPK ratio in the soil. If you use some sort of acid drops to pH your water and it is say phosphoric acid, it will add phosphorous to the soil every time you water. For a soilless mix the optimum concentration of phosphorous is 6-10 ppm which is a very tiny amount. Once or twice with your ph'd water will throw off the balance from it's optimum concentration and adversely affect output. This is why I specify to use rain water only (I personally do not pH but if you f up when you mix the soil you may have to so trial and error prevails). Anything from 6.0 to 6.6 should finish out but I stick closer to 6.2 myself maybe swinging as high as 6.4 due to human error. It is small amounts into large volumes of soil we are talking about here. (Sorry about the soil... forgot to say soilless... just keep in mind)

Quad Edit: lol forgot to mention if you do have to pH you should use something like citric acid which has a molecular composition of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen and will not affect your NPK ratio.
 
Was going to say ask van stank or bobrown they both know there stuff well for a living soil .
 
The two clones I potted this afternoon... just popped root... are now directly under a 315W ceramic halide and loving it... no wilt. The wilty one is still not quite happy but seems to firm up when I give it a break in the shade, guess it will have to use up the phosphorous it sucked up from the worm castings before it will act straight... maybe by tomorrow. No problems I can see with the new mix other than maybe still a bit too much phosphorous... all I could do is cut the coco coir a little more and add some kelp back in to bring the potassium back up... maybe a task for next lab sample. I haven't even gotten to worrying about the trace elements but if you don't have the NPK right then there is no need to worry about trace element concentrations.

Edit: Forgot to mention that all have been repotted into the new worm casting free mix at this point.
 
I had thought about using blood meal (an excellent nitrogen source but quite strong so be careful) instead of the feather for nitrogen but I had already added the sea salt to the base mix and I didn't want to have trace element overdose problems (blood and sea water are supposed to have a similar chemical composition). Just an interesting tid bit of information so you can see it does not matter the organic source you use you just have to hit the optimal ranges for nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium and keep track of the amount of each in whatever you add. Trace elements matter too but not quite to the degree that nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium do as far as concentrations are concerned. Converting from one organic source to another is as simple as taking a measured dose of each (like a cupful scraped over with a straight edge so it's a perfect cup) and weighing it out. Then take the NPK values off the bag and those are the actual percentage of the weight of the item that is nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium. So for alfalfa which is 2.5-0.5-2.5 2.5% of the weight of the alfalfa you add to the soil is nitrogen (the first number). 0.5% of the weight is phosphorous (the second number) and 2.5% of the weight is potassium. In this way you can mix a variety of organic nutrient sources together to achieve the optimum NPK range on the soilless test and hit the mark spot on. You will be happy.
 
If you are dropping dead foliage, leaves, manure and all on top of the soil then you might want to do it way before the planting so the stuff breaks down and enters the soil. Using finely ground meals mixed homogeneously into the soil allows the nutrient to become plant available immediately. I am not aware of the science behind this I just know that it works. The plants have all the fertilizer they need for an entire grow and all I have to do is water and wait. Life is good.
 
Just for clarification... it is only important to know the difference between soil and soilless when you get the lab test done. Peat moss and coco coir both fall into the soilless category at the lab. When I talk about soil here I often mean soilless but I tend to slang the term into soil (bad grammar I know).
 
@Diatomacious - Brother you're preachin to the choir

I'm shoutin hal-la-fvkin-lu-la

You got it on the soil. Even the ability to wash out the excess soluble N that was left in the soil from some bottled additive whatever.

Weird thing on that is that "bloom nutes" are low in N, I guess as they should be?

For me - meh. All I put in my soil is water and I have that automated so all I really do is stand back and leave the plants alone they will grow.


Soil-less medium as its practiced today is not sustainable. Economically speaking IMHO.

Someone smart is going to large scale organic soil. Likely will be in Canada. Thats weird cause they embraced the hydroponics and made it work large scale many years ago. maybe they learned a "valuable" lesson?

(of course you would not eat feather meal but you see what I am saying about harmful chemicals... rain water only). You want a clean healthy environment for the bacteria to live in... what they leave behind the plant eats then you eat.
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Who eats feather meal anyway??
Kelp meal - yes
crustacean meal - ahem maybe

How bout some good old fashioned Soy Bean meal non gmo and organically grown.

Roll some burgers in it. Should be good, report back. lol

The "meals" I generally feed to our vermi-compost bins and worms. We use that vermi-compost in our soil mix. All nutrients the plant needs to live, thrive and reproduce are available for plant uptake. All we need are some water, bacteria and mushrooms to get the party started.
 
I hear ya... hopefully I've gotten my soil problems figured out and should be able to move on. My real problem now is genetics... seems like most of the seed available today has been crossed with hemp (to reduce THC most likely "gov't conspiracy?"). I used to grow some stuff back around 2000 that would get me high for 6 hours every time (and I smoke at least twice a day back then), now seems like you are lucky to catch a buzz for a half hour. I hate smoking so much but the stuff just don't compare. That plant could stink the whole house up and down the street from just the clones. The buds were resinous and sticky (if you tried to put them in a baggy then get them back out they would rip the bag). When the plant neared ripeness little resin balls would begin to appear on the trichomes (you could not manicure it and go out in public).
 
Well day two for the healthy clones went well. The clones took full sun from morning til night with no wilt. The wilted one is still struggling so I'm not quite there yet on my soil mix. Sent another sample off to the lab (this time with no worm castings) and I'm waiting for the results. Once I get all the data back I can mull it over and decide my course of action from there.
 
I'm with you...the ida that somehow the pot is stronger now? Really? I was there. No...bong hits that made you pass out. Joints that left and entire room full of people laughing hysterically at nothing. Weed that made you so hungry you would eat anything. Even some shit that made me feel like my whole body was vibrating from the inside out. I have not found anything like that at the dispensaries.
 
Well playing with the wilted one has revealed some interesting results. Plant has improved with addition of kelp tea so I definitely need to increase potassium levels. Problem is kelp also has some phosphorous and I'm already too high with just the coco coir (I think I can push it to 20 ppm with acceptable results so I will try and see). Potassium levels currently are around 100 ppm and need to be at least 150... 200 would be great and 250 would still work. Now the question is how much kelp meal to add to the soil mix to get the desired concentration... that's where the lab comes in.
 
I'mOne said:
I'm with you...the ida that somehow the pot is stronger now? Really?

I have not found anything like that at the dispensaries.
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Around 2000 I was growing a strain called super crystal. Stuff was the bomb probably the best I ever smoked... many people commented they had never been higher. I also smoked a friends hash plant that I thought at first was mexican brown... after smoking two bowls he packed I had to go sit in the bathroom by myself and rock back and forth I was so high... I was so high my body hurt (though that could have been chemicals he was growing with who can tell). Anyway you see what I'm sayin' when you go to a dispensary and can't find anything better than midgrade from back in the 20th century. Is the gov f'in with us?
 
That would make sense in a manufacturing situation where one part cost twice what another costs to make... when talking about genetics it takes just as much effort to grow a mediocre bud as it does to grow a top quality bud. No one saves a dime growing hemp crossed MJ... guess it makes the gov workers feel like they are earning their pay, who knows.
 
Well decided to mix another batch this time with some kelp meal included. Not 100% sure about quantities but we will see. Previous batch seems to have a little too much nitrogen at 1.5T feather meal but still waiting on lab (I deduced this by plant visual symptoms). This time I cut the feather back to 1T so I'm just waiting to see a plant response at this point... by tomorrow I will know more. I also sent a sample off to the lab so I will have some data on kelp meal when that report comes back. What someone needs to come up with is a table of values for grams total nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium to ppm available for each when mixed into the soil at a specified concentration, now that would be useful.
 
Diatomacious said:
Well playing with the wilted one has revealed some interesting results. Plant has improved with addition of kelp tea so I definitely need to increase potassium levels. Problem is kelp also has some phosphorous and I'm already too high with just the coco coir (I think I can push it to 20 ppm with acceptable results so I will try and see). Potassium levels currently are around 100 ppm and need to be at least 150... 200 would be great and 250 would still work. Now the question is how much kelp meal to add to the soil mix to get the desired concentration... that's where the lab comes in.
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That sounds like soil-less medium talk, no?? With all the PPMs and so forth.

In soil Kelp has no problems, as you noted when you added kelp tea to your cuttings.

Change your water daily or every other day. All you need is a glass jar and a little kelp tea also try making some Willow tea (made from the latest shoots), that has a lot of growth hormones in it as does the kelp tea.

Kelp meal can be used @ 1 cup per cubic foot (7gal soil). Add a tbs or 2 at flip to flower.

Not sure about feather meal.

Not sure why you worry about potassium levels ?? Whats the down side?

A vermi-compost bin (with a lid works wonders at breaking down all the goodies for the plants into soluble forms and the results won't be toxic to plants.
 
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