Thank you Con! I think the same about your pics in your tranquil oasis by the lake.

Thank you SniperX! My jars are emptying as we speak so I will be very grateful for this harvest. Your outside autos are looking like jewels they are so green.

Thank you GDB! I hope one day I can measure my success by floppage 😀

Thank you Keith! Exciting times. Yours are about to start the flowering magic too :passitleft:

Thank you Otter, they are getting fatter, especially the MAC#1 auto. I got some pics with the flash on, that always shows the buds nicely. The Red Mimosa XL auto is a couple of weeks behind the MAC#1 and the Blueberry is about a week behind that. I'm hoping they will pack on the weight too. The Red Mimosa certainly is frosting up.

Thanks G, the smell is pretty awesome too.




Moisture Update:
Thanks to this very useful gift I am able to see exactly how moist the plants like their pots to be. Here are some pics of optimal soil moisture and present status. It's great to be able to see this and know what to aim for.

Previously my plants in the 20 L (5 gal) pots would take about 2 L of water each time and require watering more frequently. Now these plants only take 1 L at a time. I put this down to the light control. I wonder if that can be.

Perhaps when I was running the lights too hot and for too long that may have sped up the transpiration. Now that I am keeping DLI within the suggested range, at 45, with much lower ppfd, I feel my plants have a better chance at remaining healthy and bulking up. @Gee64 do you think this is a thing?
It is definitely a thing. Light is radiation and it has the ability to raise the temperature of a leaf. Transpiration is dictated by the difference in leaf temp to air temp. There are certainly other factors such as air movement, but a warm leaf will dry quicker just as water on a warm sidewalk will dry quicker than water on a cold sidewalk. It's physics at play. VPD to be exact. Too much light will cause both sunburn, which lowers future photosynthesis, and dehydration.
For the purposes of clarification, I am keeping the lights at 100 % power, raised quite a distance from the plants, for better penetration. I think if I had the lights closer and at lower intensity, the penetration would be less but I am not sure.
I actually just tried this to see and what I found was a lower volume of light closer to the plant gave a more even PPFD right out to the edges of the lights footprint.

I'm not sure on the penetration part as I have no way of measuring that but my logic is leaning me to believe that a flat even canopy is better served by a closer light set to proper PPFD and an untopped plant with colas at varying heights is better served by a higher hung light turned brighter, but thats a guess as again, I have no way of knowing which actually penetrates thru leaves better.

I circumvent the entire dilemma by delarfing anything that doesn't get full light thus removing the penetration factor from the equation. But again, I have no real idea. I just set PPFD to 950 max at the brightest cola (autos seem to be able to safely handle more) and then not really worry about it after that.

Light intensity definitely affects transpiration tho. Moving wet air out and dry air in also has a huge bearing on transpiration too, but temp offset between leaf and air is what creates the rate of transpiration.

Moving air ensures that rate doesn't get compromised.


They are gorgeous Carmen😍❤️👊. Don't go overboard on dryness tho, a 5 is perfect for flower with photoperiods. For autos I'm not sure.

Also scrub that probe with a scratchy plastic scrubby and good dish soap to remove factory grease from it or you may get improper readings, and don't leave it in the soil when you aren't using it. It will corrode and then you will need to use steel wool to revive it.
 
It is definitely a thing. Light is radiation and it has the ability to raise the temperature of a leaf. Transpiration is dictated by the difference in leaf temp to air temp. There are certainly other factors such as air movement, but a warm leaf will dry quicker just as water on a warm sidewalk will dry quicker than water on a cold sidewalk. It's physics at play. VPD to be exact. Too much light will cause both sunburn, which lowers future photosynthesis, and dehydration.
🙏
I actually just tried this to see and what I found was a lower volume of light closer to the plant gave a more even PPFD right out to the edges of the lights footprint.
😲 OKaaay, good to know! So there is possibly a case to be made to turn the dial down to 75 % and move the lights closer. I remember @InTheShed making a comment about light penetration from height not so long ago. Shed, will you weigh in here too please 🙏
I'm not sure on the penetration part as I have no way of measuring that but my logic is leaning me to believe that a flat even canopy is better served by a closer light set to proper PPFD and an untopped plant with colas at varying heights is better served by a higher hung light turned brighter, but thats a guess as again, I have no way of knowing which actually penetrates thru leaves better.
I left the plants quite leafy this time as I was following Jon's advice to hang onto leaves but lose the larf. I hung onto too much larf and now I have a caldera shaped canopy in the Blueberry, which may be better served by a higher hung light. The multi-level MAC#1could too by the same logic. Which leaves the Red Mimosa which is at present getting decent ppfd in the middle there. The ppfd is much higher in the middle between the two lights.
I circumvent the entire dilemma by delarfing anything that doesn't get full light thus removing the penetration factor from the equation. But again, I have no real idea. I just set PPFD to 950 max at the brightest cola (autos seem to be able to safely handle more) and then not really worry about it after that.
I am going lower on the ppfd - 750ish for 18 hours gives me a DLI of 45, which is what I want. More than that, my plants become compromised (ime).
Light intensity definitely affects transpiration tho. Moving wet air out and dry air in also has a huge bearing on transpiration too, but temp offset between leaf and air is what creates the rate of transpiration.

Moving air ensures that rate doesn't get compromised.

They are gorgeous Carmen😍❤️👊. Don't go overboard on dryness tho, a 5 is perfect for flower with photoperiods. For autos I'm not sure.
Thanks! I just gave the Blueberry a drink after noticing a wilt. Ok so that was too dry. Now I know. 1 L Nourish solution.
Also scrub that probe with a scratchy plastic scrubby and good dish soap to remove factory grease from it or you may get improper readings, and don't leave it in the soil when you aren't using it. It will corrode and then you will need to use steel wool to revive it.
Thank you!

I hope this is coherent lol. I am highish and a bit glum 💔

 
I think if I had the lights closer and at lower intensity, the penetration would be less but I am not sure.
I have no way of knowing which actually penetrates thru leaves better.
Rather than thinking of penetration as penetrating through the leaves, it's more about penetrating through the distance from top flowers to the lowers. That's the main advantage of a flat canopy indoors under artificial (synthetic ;) ) light.

The reason higher wattage from a greater distance is better for penetration is because of the inverse square law of light transmission:
"Light intensity decreases with distance from source to receiving surface (sink), and the rate of decrease is in proportion to the square of the distance between emitter and receiver."
Source

I can't explain it as well as the experts can (like @Graytail), but it basically states that light intensity diminishes quickly over distance. Using an online calculator, you will see that 20,000 lux 12" above the canopy drops to 5,000 lux at 24" (12" below the canopy).

If you raise the light to 24" above the canopy (double the height) and double the lux to 40,000, the flowers 12" below the canopy will now see 17,777.8 lux, or better than a 3x increase.

Whereas if you drop the light to 6" above the canopy at 10,000 lux, at 12" below the canopy the flowers will only see 1,111 lux.

This needs to be balanced against DLI, but I hope I explained the general concept well!
 
Rather than thinking of penetration as penetrating through the leaves, it's more about penetrating through the distance from top flowers to the lowers. That's the main advantage of a flat canopy indoors under artificial (synthetic ;) ) light.

The reason higher wattage from a greater distance is better for penetration is because of the inverse square law of light transmission:
"Light intensity decreases with distance from source to receiving surface (sink), and the rate of decrease is in proportion to the square of the distance between emitter and receiver."
Source

I can't explain it as well as the experts can (like @Graytail), but it basically states that light intensity diminishes quickly over distance. Using an online calculator, you will see that 20,000 lux 12" above the canopy drops to 5,000 lux at 24" (12" below the canopy).

If you raise the light to 24" above the canopy (double the height) and double the lux to 40,000, the flowers 12" below the canopy will now see 17,777.8 lux, or better than a 3x increase.

Whereas if you drop the light to 6" above the canopy at 10,000 lux, at 12" below the canopy the flowers will only see 1,111 lux.

This needs to be balanced against DLI, but I hope I explained the general concept well!
Thanks Shed, thats kinda how I saw it in my mind. Flat canopy, go for better spread. Uneven canopy, go for intensity.

This makes sense... I think🤣🤣🤣🤣.
 
Rather than thinking of penetration as penetrating through the leaves, it's more about penetrating through the distance from top flowers to the lowers. That's the main advantage of a flat canopy indoors under artificial (synthetic ;) ) light.

The reason higher wattage from a greater distance is better for penetration is because of the inverse square law of light transmission:
"Light intensity decreases with distance from source to receiving surface (sink), and the rate of decrease is in proportion to the square of the distance between emitter and receiver."
Source
Thank you. I think it means the intensity of the light falls away the further away the plant is from the light, and that naturally, the lower bud sites will get less intense light than the tops. I think the point you make is that the rate of drop off is calculated by the square of those distances, and that I need to figure a happy medium and hang the lights at that sweet spot. Is that what you are saying? I get a little sweaty when it comes to sciencing lol.
I can't explain it as well as the experts can (like @Graytail), but it basically states that light intensity diminishes quickly over distance. Using an online calculator, you will see that 20,000 lux 12" above the canopy drops to 5,000 lux at 24" (12" below the canopy).
Yes, I think this example illustrates the point above as I understand it? I am intimidated by the calculator. What unit of measurement should be entered? Lux? I think it's gonna be easier to just raise and lower the light physically to determine the happy spot? I mean I know what I am aiming for up top and I can check the spread and penetration with the Photone app.
If you raise the light to 24" above the canopy (double the height) and double the lux to 40,000, the flowers 12" below the canopy will now see 17,777.8 lux, or better than a 3x increase.
Oh now I'm laughing at myself. I jumped to a conclusion but here it is. The further away the better as long as the intensity is optimal?
Whereas if you drop the light to 6" above the canopy at 10,000 lux, at 12" below the canopy the flowers will only see 1,111 lux.

This needs to be balanced against DLI, but I hope I explained the general concept well!
I know that I can't go above 750 PPFD (thereabouts) over and 18 hour period on the tops. So that's why I raised the light when I turned the volume up to 100 %. I play with distance to regulate the PPFD on the tops.
Thanks Shed, thats kinda how I saw it in my mind. Flat canopy, go for better spread. Uneven canopy, go for intensity.

This makes sense... I think🤣🤣🤣🤣.
Are we all three saying the same thing, just in different ways? 😅🤣 If we are, that was a great science lesson, so thank you!
 
Highya Carmen,

Seems that it gets cold in your house. Plants can "take" pretty chilly temps, but probably not moving nutrients very well when cold. Outdoors here, it'll drop to 45F (about 7C) in fall at night, then warm up to 70F daytime. Anyways, are you talking you only go down to 7C in winter? Somewhat tropical? Well, you're doing a great job with those autos. They look really nice. Fun grow to watch!! Happy Smokin'
 
It's much easier to measure it than calculate it, but I just wanted to explain why it's true. You make the adjustments based on your light, hours, and canopy depth.

You can test it in your own just to confirm it by raising and lowering the height, turning up and down the watts, and seeing how the numbers change as you get closer to the soil.
Thank you. I'm always pleased to learn when there is science to back up my thoughts. This makes sense.
all this science I don't understand, but I do love me some supertramp!thanks for jogging the memory
Hey Chris, I came of age in the mid-eighties. I hope you like these too :)

Highya Carmen,

Seems that it gets cold in your house. Plants can "take" pretty chilly temps, but probably not moving nutrients very well when cold. Outdoors here, it'll drop to 45F (about 7C) in fall at night, then warm up to 70F daytime. Anyways, are you talking you only go down to 7C in winter? Somewhat tropical? Well, you're doing a great job with those autos. They look really nice. Fun grow to watch!! Happy Smokin'
Thanks Bode. Yes we have relatively mild winters but we don't have double glazing or central heating, so a 7C day can get pretty chills. I spent a Christmas in London and the only time it was colder than home was when we travelled north where there was thick snow. Last weekend I was in the Overberg and there was snow on the mountains Brrrr :)
 
I saw the police at Boston Garden in the early 80's wish I could rember it. I know it was awesome, I think. somewhere I have a box with all ticket stubs from the concerts I went to, well most of em,I think
Chris, that sorta' reminds me of something I read recently: "The older I get, the more clearly I remember events that never actually happened." 😁
 
I saw the police at Boston Garden in the early 80's wish I could rember it. I know it was awesome, I think. somewhere I have a box with all ticket stubs from the concerts I went to, well most of em,I think
So the Old Garden! What a place! I been frisked by the police in The Boston Garden :p .
 
Sunday Bud Porn!
Howdy and happy Sunday. I wish you all only happy memories and no regrets. Love till the stars go out!









 
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