OMRI listed is not the same as organic when it comes to an organic soil grow.
CBD Auto EmmyStack In AziSIPs, GeoFlora, Sweet Candy, Dynomyco, Roots Organic Soil +
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cbdhemp808
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Oh no, I've triggered the great organic debate again! Nooooo... stop now while we still can!
what are you burning up with that ?
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
about how long?
I check them after a month but they already look like the pic above, so I don't actually know. I use this method for cuttings I'm not in a hurry for (like to replace a mother plant). For ones I need faster it's Dip'n Grow and soil under domes.
cbdhemp808
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cash.
cbdhemp808
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We have successfully hijacked Gringuito's thread.
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- #328
CBDMed
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Well, you know, Shed, I do not know too much. Only, I am told that when you put lots of composted organic matter into soil, it stays healthy, and keeps people healthy and fed for many generations. And I have a lot of health problems because (they think) I was exposed to stuff that was not "natural". So, please forgive me if I have an aversion, because autism has been kicking my behind my whole life (and the head injury was worse).
So, I do not know much, but in general I feel better when trending toward amending lots of plant materials into the soil. And chemical materials, when appropriate, because a correct amount of the right chemical nutes seem to benefit the grow.
I do not really see a problem with adding the right chemical materials when appropriate. And I am not sure if I have said anything to offend you in any way, but I guess I do not understand why this keeps coming up. Am I tightening or damaging the soil in some way? Or is there a compost or natural way to get the K necessary?
Big sigh. I started on General Hydroponics (I think) and Calmag in RO water, and got real tired of mixing a dozen-plus bottles. Then someone said Subcool Supersoil was "organic". I see that it has both organic and chemical nutes. So I cooked it, and the difference in flavor was night and day. (And maybe I am wrong, but I think unless they are tricking the body with specially-designed flavor and aroma molecules, NORMALLY, when a person knows what good food is, and something tastes good and smells good, it is normally good for you [and I know the food industry tricks people with their molecules]).
Sigh... Build-A-Soil says that some of Subcool's amendments "tighten" the soil. (I think the chemical ones.) There are other, newer, "better" recipes, but I am not sure if I can find the amendments, gro. Availability is not real good. Roots seems to be the one-and-only supplier here. If you do not like his mixes, can you please tell me what I should do?
I JUST found today 45Kg (110 Lb??) sacks of:
Chicken gut meal bulk
Feather meal bulk
Fish meal bulk
Blood meal bulk
I can ALSO find EWC
Composted cow manure
Composted chicken manure
Composted organic goat manure maybe (because they want this all for the farm).
Mushroom compost (maybe)
Kitchen waste compost
Kelp flakes
Do any of those have all of the K I will need for a grow without chemicals?
Or is there some good combination of these that will give me all the N-P-K I need, without resorting to soil-tightening chemicals? Thanks.
here's an example of a hempy clone :
that one was a reveg that i left in the cup a bit too long
i actually trimmed the thing when the pic was taken then up potted.
to hempy clone :
it's just a cup full of perlite with a hole about a third from the bottom as pictured.
the cutting is shoved into the cup of perlite
feed about every 3 - 4 days at early veg strength. it won't use the res in that time but you want to refresh it.
run them under veg light levels and day/night cycle time.
when you up pot you can move them into any media you want. you don't have to finish them hempy.
finally watch the damn things. they'll root in and start asking for higher nute levels usually before you're ready lol.
somebody send mercy bitcoin ...
that one was a reveg that i left in the cup a bit too long
i actually trimmed the thing when the pic was taken then up potted.
to hempy clone :
it's just a cup full of perlite with a hole about a third from the bottom as pictured.
the cutting is shoved into the cup of perlite
feed about every 3 - 4 days at early veg strength. it won't use the res in that time but you want to refresh it.
run them under veg light levels and day/night cycle time.
when you up pot you can move them into any media you want. you don't have to finish them hempy.
finally watch the damn things. they'll root in and start asking for higher nute levels usually before you're ready lol.
somebody send mercy bitcoin ...
I'm not offended at all El G and I'm sorry you took my comments that way. I'm trying to help within the parameters you have laid out here in your thread. First you said you wanted to conform to Biblical teachings with your organic grow, and you added that you want the benefit of the organic flavor. For those reasons I keep pointing out to you that what you are thinking of adding to your soil is no different than what any synthetic nute grower (such as myself) adds to theirs.
As I mentioned, I have no idea how much of your additives you can add (and when) before you are either violating the Biblical teachings or the need to preserve the organic flavor.
I can't advise you about how to make living organic soil, but it seems that going with a tried and tested recipe will get you better results then mixing a bit of this and that to see what might or might not be effective. Yes, getting the materials to make the soil are expensive, but they are basically a one-time purchase and will set you on a path that gets you to the meds you want.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Hey Gringuito,
Below is my post from last year, talking about my organic living supersoil recipe.
I haven't been following your process now very closely. Can you just briefly summarize where you're at, in terms of nutrient needs? I know you are growing in SIPs and using ROOTS soil.
Below is my post from last year, talking about my organic living supersoil recipe.
I haven't been following your process now very closely. Can you just briefly summarize where you're at, in terms of nutrient needs? I know you are growing in SIPs and using ROOTS soil.
Colombian Andes Greenhouse SIP CBD Auto Grow
The old soil comes from your prior rounds in your pots. What do you do with that stuff? The old soil brings in the strain specific microbes assuming you run the same strains, but at the very least canna specific ones, plus brings in some of the goodies that take longer than one grow cycleto...
www.420magazine.com
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- #332
CBDMed
Well-Known Member
Sorry, gro. I know you are trying to help me, and your (and everyone else's) suggestions are making my grows a whole lot better!
I just guess I feel fatigued, because I don't get what I am missing, and it keeps coming up. So I guess I am mostly confused.
I appreciate that very much!
Right. But I don't think they had indoor LED's or Terp Tea back then, so some allowances will have to be made
Umm... respectfully, are you sure about that?
How much biodegradeable organic matter gets mixed in to soil with MC?
And do you re-use your soil? And if so, what happens to the tith over time?
Well, I appreciate your help very much, gro. If not for you and the others here, I would still be growing 12" autos that fell over from bad soil. And the Bible does not specify organic. That is an interpretation from Genesis, about our first job being to maintain the planet.
That said, I do not know if anyone in ancient Israel found a deposit of rock phosphate or azomite or whatever, and sold it to farmers looking to improve their crops, or what. I do not see anywhere in Scripture that you cannot add mineral or chemical amendments to soil--just that the original intent was to tend and keep the garden (which in my mind means maintaining tilth and longevity).
Yes, I have explained the oversight of not buying enough GF Veg each day for some time now. Earlier, everyone (including Em) were telling me that human urine was good enough. Then as I started this thread, you and others were kind enough to show me the video where it is NOT good enough.
So, because I had planned on human urine, and then you all helped me to know that human urine was no longer considered good, I had to do something, so I panic-bought the 4-6-5, and planned to supplement. When it did not arrive in time, I used one of my GF Bloom bags, and then I realized I could use Terp Tea Bloom, and supplement that with N and K.
This next feeding will be 4-6-5 bubbled for 24 hours with 2 TBLSP molasses per 4 Lb bag, and then supplemented with urine for N, banana peel EWC tea for K, some PK-13/14, Recharge, and maybe a bit of Veganics Grow (so-so kelp extracts). I do not know what else I can do, gro.
Costs are out of sight here, and we just lost housing money. The Terp Tea products are the least money, and they are made from mostly biodegradeable substances with a little bit of chemical (which Subcool's also has).
What could I do that would be better??
Thanks, Shed! Only, I am not sure which products you are referring to. Are you talking about the 45Kg sacks?
I appreciate you very much.
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CBDMed
Well-Known Member
Hey CBD. Thank you. I just checked your link about your supersoil, and want to read that soon.
Mostly it is supply chain issues.
Seeds I can find easy. Nutes are very limited. Flying stuff in is cost-prohibitive (especially now, when we just lost our house-building funds).
I can find all of the components for Subcool Supersoil cheap, because one grow shop carries them. ($22.50 a big batch for 8 each 10G bags). Only, some of Subcool's nutes are chemical (phosphates, dolomite lime, epsom salts), which I guess are not the best, but I am not sure what else to use, and am not really opposed to chemical or mineral nutes.
I know kelp has K, and I can source kelp locally, but can you really boost your K sufficiently with only kelp flakes??
I saw some palm trees today, and I will see if I can find banana palms acclimatized here to this area. (That would be better than starting from seed, because most banana palms grow in hot areas.)
I am ok with limited use of chemical or mineral nutes, because chemicals and minerals also occur in nature. It is just I have been taught that you always want to amend lots of organic matter into your soil, to maintain tilth long term, so that the soil stays living, and healthy.
(It is a royal pain, and it is expensive, but I am not sure what else to do.)
I appreciate everyone's help. I am way past my bedtime, so I hope to be back tomorrow.
Love to all, and thanks for all of the help.
the best advice i ever got was : fill up the jars first, fuck around after.
a lot of times you have to do what you need to. not what you want to.
if you're growing sips, don't worry about organics, inorganics, any of that shit. short answer is it's not a big difference at this point, and you have greater priorities.
what you wanna do is copy and paste what is working for others right now.
keep it simple.
once you get a little success, you'll move toward your own grow style as you complete more and more grows. every grower does.
you don't have to solve everything right now. just get some jars filled.
the rest works itself out with time.
a lot of times you have to do what you need to. not what you want to.
if you're growing sips, don't worry about organics, inorganics, any of that shit. short answer is it's not a big difference at this point, and you have greater priorities.
what you wanna do is copy and paste what is working for others right now.
keep it simple.
once you get a little success, you'll move toward your own grow style as you complete more and more grows. every grower does.
you don't have to solve everything right now. just get some jars filled.
the rest works itself out with time.
I am 100% sure that the products you have posted the pics of are considered synthetic nutes, as they completely bypass the microbes in the soil and feed the plant directly. Most people consider an LOS grow essentially to be fed by microbes in the soil "eating" the base elements and converting them into something the plant can use, and the plant then taking the elements from the microbes and sending them back into the soil to start the process again. That's a rough explanation but it gets to the difference between an organic and synthetic grow.
The ingredients in synthetic nutes are called salts (not to be confused with salt) and are mostly compounds of sulfates, nitrates, and phosphates. That's what's in MC and almost every other synthetic nutrient on the market.
Urine will act as a nitrogen source if you use it with another product, but it won't work well on its own. Also, GeoFlora is an actual organic top-dressed nute (there are others like Dr Earth as well). The other products you have posted pics of here or listed the ingredients for are not considered part of an organic grow if the organic taste is what you're after. Personally I don't believe that anyone can tell the difference between well cured organic and synthetic-nute flowers, but that's a conversation for another day.
I was referring to the ingredient list to make Rev's soil or its equivalent. Expensive up front, free long term. And without the trial and error and many underperforming grows in the meantime.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Yeah, check out my supersoil recipe. You just need to cover all the bases, and provide enough... NPK, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and the micro-nutrients... zinc, iron, the other metals, and silicon. My plants are doing very well – I just need to work on bud size and yield now. I'm outside, so it's a different story, because I'm not able to pump the photosynthesis as much as an indoor grow. My solar exposure is limited, due to being surrounded by big trees, and the roofing of the greenhouses isn't ideal because it gets dirty.
My supersoil base is compost soil, coir, and perlite. Then I add the nutrients to that and mix it all up, in a good size wheelbarrow. I also add fresh worm castings. I have rough measurements in mind when I add the nutes (powders), but I'm a bit like a mad scientist with it.
I do add some kelp granules, not a lot... only for the iron and micro-nutrients. Keep in mind that kelp may contain a lot of sodium.
My view is that everything that goes into the soil, in terms of the organic matter (compost/coir) and minerals, becomes habitat and food for the microbes. And all of it works in synergy with the roots. Most of what I'm using for nutes is mined minerals, guano (bat/seabird), and oyster shell. I don't consider most of it to be "synthetic" – i.e. derived from human-controlled chemical processes. (Potassium sulfate for organic agriculture is synthesized from natural sources. Gypsum is mined, but also processed.)
I know you are sensitive to the spiritual side of growing, and I am also of that mind and heart. I decided I wouldn't use any animal products, as in bone meal, blood meal, etc. I've been keeping true to that; however, I did try some semi-soluble fish bone powder recently, because it's a great way to add phosphorous during flowering. I don't think I'll use it again though, because it's quite expensive for a small amount.
When you use enough of all these nutes, and proper pot size, the supersoil will carry your plants to late veg, early flower, or mid flower. At that point I will start fertigating with diluted urine, usually 8:1, and solution-grade potassium sulfate, stirred together. (Sometime both, sometimes one or the other.) In late flower, little to no urine. During early/mid flower I will also add some seabird guano (P) to the fertigation, although it's not solution grade.
I doubt he said it because the product needs more Calcium. More likely is that many growers are finding out that these plants, especially if grown inside and under LED lights are not able to get enough Calcium from the soil in the pots. So a lot of them are making it easier on themselves and just adding a Calcium product on a regular basis.
If they wait until they see a Calcium deficiency start up again it could take longer than to fix the problem than the plant has before harvest.
So maintain a schedule for adding Calcium and not have to keep second guessing if there is enough.
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- #338
CBDMed
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It makes total sense. It seems like taking a vitamin pill every day, "just to make sure you have enough."
It is just that I hope to reuse the soil, and do not want to overload it with calmag.
I like @bluter 's idea of starting with a 1/4 or a 1/2 dose, in addition to the 1" layer of EWC, and then watching how the plant responds.
I am going to learn what the deficiencies and excesses look like, so I can see what is going on with my girls. And in the meantime, I appreciate everyone's help very much!
Thank you to all.
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- #339
CBDMed
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Ohhh, is that what is happening??Oh no, I've triggered the great organic debate again! Nooooo... stop now while we still can!
(Has this debate gone systemic??? Hahaha!)
Hahaha, I am wondering if maybe I should ask the moderators to close this thread, and I will open up another one
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- #340
CBDMed
Well-Known Member
Seems to have worked!!here's an example of a hempy clone :
that one was a reveg that i left in the cup a bit too long
I bookmarked your technique here, and hope to try to copy it.