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- #1,821
me too. a few have tried "organic" bottle nutes in hempy. if they can be run hydro it can be run in hempy.
Bluter's Happy Home For Hilarious Hempsters
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me too. a few have tried "organic" bottle nutes in hempy. if they can be run hydro it can be run in hempy.
I'm experimenting with the Korean Natural Farming and Jadam plant extracts. They use either brown sugar or water and indigenous microorganisms to extract the nutrients from plants and do so producing a "plant available" output. So, in theory, it should be just like using bottled nutes.
Different plants have various nutrient makeups and the best are called super accumulators, or dynamic accumulators, and typically have very long tap roots that can mine minerals at levels much deeper than most plants' roots go. Think dandelions with their long tap root.
Some of the best of the accumulator plants are Horsetail Fern (HTF) , Stinging nettle, Comfrey, and Dandelion.
HTF is one of the best plant based inputs, with nutrient levels that compare pretty well with a fermented fish extract which generally has the highest levels of most of the various inputs. For example, when compared to other plants, HTF has among the highest levels of K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Si, and S.
The question is, when used in various combinations, are these levels high enough to sustain a plant all the way thru harvest. So that's what I want to test. The link in my signature chronicles my experiments and what I've learned from my ongoing research into the topic.
I've not seen anyone use them with a hydro type grow but, given the limitations of my growing environment, this might be the perfect combination for me if I can get it to work. I want to grow organically but my pot size is well below the 7gal minimum that is routinely recommended for LOS type grows.
Emilya and Nutty Professor have used these type of nutrients to great effect in their organic grows, but both use soil as their medium. In soil, as you state, the microorganisms break down plant matter and feed it to the plants.
In my version the breakdown happens as part of producing them in the first place.
At least that's the theory that I trying to prove in practice.
Different plants have various nutrient makeups and the best are called super accumulators, or dynamic accumulators, and typically have very long tap roots that can mine minerals at levels much deeper than most plants' roots go. Think dandelions with their long tap root.
Some of the best of the accumulator plants are Horsetail Fern (HTF) , Stinging nettle, Comfrey, and Dandelion.
HTF is one of the best plant based inputs, with nutrient levels that compare pretty well with a fermented fish extract which generally has the highest levels of most of the various inputs. For example, when compared to other plants, HTF has among the highest levels of K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Si, and S.
The question is, when used in various combinations, are these levels high enough to sustain a plant all the way thru harvest. So that's what I want to test. The link in my signature chronicles my experiments and what I've learned from my ongoing research into the topic.
I've not seen anyone use them with a hydro type grow but, given the limitations of my growing environment, this might be the perfect combination for me if I can get it to work. I want to grow organically but my pot size is well below the 7gal minimum that is routinely recommended for LOS type grows.
Emilya and Nutty Professor have used these type of nutrients to great effect in their organic grows, but both use soil as their medium. In soil, as you state, the microorganisms break down plant matter and feed it to the plants.
In my version the breakdown happens as part of producing them in the first place.
At least that's the theory that I trying to prove in practice.
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- #1,823
nearly all organic nute systems rely on the same at least in part. even ones that are hydro usable can benefit from the addition of microbes. there are products specifically for this.
hydro growers have the choice of running either a sterile or live res.
But I assume the live res relies on active aeration involving pumps of some sort which we don't use with hempy.
In any event, that's why I'm thinking of the h2o2 periodic short term soak.
In any event, that's why I'm thinking of the h2o2 periodic short term soak.
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- #1,825
the h202 will kill any and all organics. you'd be feeding then killing.
you'd have to feed immediately after. within 24 hrs.
Ok, thanks. I'm planning on a foliar feeding of fermented fish amino acids concurrently with the soak.
But, if the microbes extract the nutrients as part of the breakdown process into a plant available form, I would think I'm feeding them the nutrient elements (N,P,K, etc.) directly more like synthetic nutes, and shouldn't care about microbes in this part of the process. No?
In normal organics we want the microbes to break down the material and feed it to the plants. With synthetic nutes we just feed the nutrients directly without needing the microbes, right?
So, if I'm getting to the plant available nutrients as part of the extraction process, why do we care about the microbes in this setting? I know it stands the whole organic thing on its head, but I think of it more like a synthetic feeding but using organically prepared (i.e. no chelated salts) inputs.
But, if the microbes extract the nutrients as part of the breakdown process into a plant available form, I would think I'm feeding them the nutrient elements (N,P,K, etc.) directly more like synthetic nutes, and shouldn't care about microbes in this part of the process. No?
In normal organics we want the microbes to break down the material and feed it to the plants. With synthetic nutes we just feed the nutrients directly without needing the microbes, right?
So, if I'm getting to the plant available nutrients as part of the extraction process, why do we care about the microbes in this setting? I know it stands the whole organic thing on its head, but I think of it more like a synthetic feeding but using organically prepared (i.e. no chelated salts) inputs.
- Thread starter
- #1,827
your cats are gonna love you.
if you don't have any the neighbour's will find you.
yes, that's the if.
there are organically claimed hydro nutes that essentially cite something similar. and that's always where the debate is as to whether it's a proper organic or not.
pretty much. it depends on a process called chelation.
it gets complicated from there. there is more than one way for a nute to be chelated - made available - to the plant.
it's the same if. i'm not saying you won't. i'm just saying it's the $5000 dollar question we are waiting to be answered by what happens.
pretty much everyone else attempting this would be in a soil grow. i'm curious to see how it works.
there's a bunch of lines running the same idea, mostly in europe. a few have hydro or coco apps.
there can be different types of chelation which make it murky.
heavy metal derived sulfites and nitrates though don't have a "natural" path at all.
Great, thanks for all of that. More complicated than I had hoped.
But, we should see soon enough, and I'm happy to be the tester. If it doesn't work, I can always fall back on MC or something similar.
Do you know off hand which are the commercial organic liquid nute products citing the same expectations?
But, we should see soon enough, and I'm happy to be the tester. If it doesn't work, I can always fall back on MC or something similar.
Do you know off hand which are the commercial organic liquid nute products citing the same expectations?
"There are two kinds of formulations for hydroponic nutrients – synthetic (or refined mineral, or salt-based) and organic based. A synthetic nutrient is in the form of soluble salts formulated by humans for plant consumption. Similar to the way table salt (NaCl) disassociates in water to form Na+ (cation) and Cl- (anion), the pre-formulated fertilizer salts disassociate into the correct spectrum concentrations of necessary ion components needed for plant growth.
100% Organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into an inorganic useable form for plants. Because of the non-soluble of many natural sources of nutrition, organic based hydroponic nutrients have 20-30% fertilizer salts with the rest being soluble “organic” components, such as guanos, plant extracts, worm castings, potash, kelps, etc.
Because all of the components are not similar in structure and properties they disassociate at different rates in the “universal solvent” creating a slight pH fluctuation. This is the major difference between synthetic and organic based nutrients, but is easily overcome with patience and practice.
Having said this, there is absolutely no difference in the final ion product with respect to synthetic nutrients and organic based nutrients. An ion is an ion. It is simply a different way of delivering the food to the plant. As has been stated, plants “eat” ions in an inorganic form in the end anyway. In other words, plants do not eat guano ions, or kelp ions; they eat the inorganic constituents of these materials after they have been broken down or dissolved in water.
A 100% organic hydroponic nutrient has not been formulated because in nature microorganisms and specific processes break down organic compounds to make them available to plants (i.e. “slow release” fertilizers). Since many organic materials are not soluble in water, they cannot be utilized in a hydroponic system, yet. There is great potential in the ability of scientists to locate unique plant extracts and formulations conducive to this idea. There is currently much energy being devoted to the technology."
100% Organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into an inorganic useable form for plants. Because of the non-soluble of many natural sources of nutrition, organic based hydroponic nutrients have 20-30% fertilizer salts with the rest being soluble “organic” components, such as guanos, plant extracts, worm castings, potash, kelps, etc.
Because all of the components are not similar in structure and properties they disassociate at different rates in the “universal solvent” creating a slight pH fluctuation. This is the major difference between synthetic and organic based nutrients, but is easily overcome with patience and practice.
Having said this, there is absolutely no difference in the final ion product with respect to synthetic nutrients and organic based nutrients. An ion is an ion. It is simply a different way of delivering the food to the plant. As has been stated, plants “eat” ions in an inorganic form in the end anyway. In other words, plants do not eat guano ions, or kelp ions; they eat the inorganic constituents of these materials after they have been broken down or dissolved in water.
A 100% organic hydroponic nutrient has not been formulated because in nature microorganisms and specific processes break down organic compounds to make them available to plants (i.e. “slow release” fertilizers). Since many organic materials are not soluble in water, they cannot be utilized in a hydroponic system, yet. There is great potential in the ability of scientists to locate unique plant extracts and formulations conducive to this idea. There is currently much energy being devoted to the technology."
Wow, I'm more cutting edge than I thought. And maybe a bit over my ski's. 
Hey bluter!
What’s growing on?
What’s growing on?
hi 420 - finally got a moment to catch up. hope everyone is staying safe in these stupid stupid days ...
time for an easter treat edition of What's Going on in Bluter's Kitchen ? ...
this one is gonna be delicious ....
we've been chatting in the thread about vegetable glycerin for a few days.
infused vegetable glycerin is kind of popular here. vg is a clear or slightly yellowish liquid mostly made from vegetable, palm , or coconut oils. it has a slightly sweet taste to it and is a bit like syrup in consistency. it is low in calories, but is a poor sugar replacement as it's level of sweetness is not that high. it's great for our purposes though.
vg is commonly a by-product of the soap making industry, and is used in a lot of cosmetics as well. if you add a tiny bit of nitric acid to it - it can benefit heart attack victims and folk with bad tickers. add a touch more nitric acid, and you create the explosive base product used in all killing machines everywhere.
so clearly we need to tie up all the product not used for keeping ladies vain and hearts going ...
vg is normally done as a cold infusion. unfortunately the process is time consuming and the extraction rate can be pretty poor. the bud is decarbed, then bottled up in a big jar of the vg liquid and left to sit for 3 - 8 months. the jar needs to get tumbled a couple times a day in order to get the cannabis all through it while the trichomes migrate from the plant material to the liquid. the end product winds up at something like a 40 - 50% extraction rate.
that won't quite cut it. oh canada we can do better....
for a few years i made a vg tincture using a crock pot and a heat infusion process. it has a far better extraction rate than the cold process, but required decarb and a couple other finicky things to start. when i began infusing oils with the instant pot method - i realized immediately vegetable glycerin could probably work in that process.
and here it is ...
there are a couple measurement changes, but the basic process is identical to the instant pot oil infusion method. i do a two cook process, meaning i run two instant pot cook cycles with a cool down period between.
i usually start with 500 ml - 2 cups - of the vegetable glycerin ...
this is 250 ml - 1/4 cup, less than the amount of oil i would normally infuse. the reason is vg will "boil up" inside the instant pot more violently than an oil. i use a lesser amount in order to ensure it stays inside the infusion bowl i put in the instant pot.
pull out that double boiler you put together for the last Bluter's Kitchen episode and warm that vg up on a low heat.
this starts the processes and simply helps it flow better when you pour it in the infusion bowl. vg is syrupy and you wanna be able to get everything out of that bottle you paid for. it can be overly expensive for what it is i noticed...
weigh out your bud while the vg is warming ....
through a bunch of experimentation i have found 20 - 24 grams of dried bud is best for this recipe. this a bit more than is required for oil infusions. the vg does not infuse as well, and the extra tends to make up for it. you can play with amounts to hit a level you personally like. i use the same measurements for both cbd and thc base cooks. this is a cbd cook.
grind up the bud and pour that warm vegetable syrup goodness all over it ....
the bud will float. i let it soak a couple minutes to let it take up the vg and settle. can help the process a bit by pressing the bud down with a tablespoon.
don't be too finicky about it. i just get the worst of it to settle. as per regular infusion - i cover the bowl with aluminium foil before putting it in the instant pot, and i don't want too much sticking to the top.
pull out the magic machine .....
get enough water in there to just touch the bottom of the rack ...
foil up your infusion mix bowl and get 'er in there ....
set your instant pot up for the standard infusion time and cook settings ....
and away we go.
now it's just keep to the set cook and cool times, and we should be ready by tomorrow. i take about a day or two to do the whole process.
quick notes :
i do a two cook process, meaning i run the exact same cycle in the instant pot twice, with a minimum 8 hr cool down period between. this helps pull more terpenes and cannabinoids out, but will effect taste. some folk may prefer a single cook, with a milder effect.
the 8 hr cool down is crucial. running a second cook too soon could destroy terpenes, cannabinoids, effect, etc.
i find the cool down needs to be more thorough with the vg than with an oil. it probably has something to do with the thickness.
letting the mix settle, or cold infuse for a longer period, at any time between or after the two cooks will enhance terpene flavours. debatable if it gains potency, but i would bet you may get some.
for a supreme treat, i will cook and jar some up with the cannabis still in, then forget about it to "cure", until the mood strikes me to strain it out and use it. this is simply adding a shorter cold infusion process to the instant pot method.
it is usable on it's own right after the first or second cook.
ding ... ! through the magic of interwebz the instant pot has finished a coupla cooks.
somehow thought that would be much more exciting -- --
get out the trusted canning strainer and cheese cloth - a la @SweetSue 's instant pot infusion straining method - it's really the best way.
get some clips and a jar and set it all up ...
and interruption .
before you dig the infusion bowl out of the instant pot :
the whole instant pot method is kind of a prepare / set / walk away while it does it's thing process. -- like grandma's crock-pot. almost too easy lol.
if you are like me, i will set things up and let them run overnight, or when i am away at work. often i won't get to the stuff till well after it has finished it's cook.
since the vg is so thick, i will warm it in the instant pot for 5 - 10 min before straining. don't let it go too far or forget it - the stuff can re-cook uncontrolled fast - super no bueno
warmed carefully for straining after a good cool down.
dig it out of the instant pot
try to strain it while still warm. you'll get way more out easier. the stuff won't strain as easy as an infused oil would.
the moment you take the foil off the bowl you will see how much the stuff boils up ---
strain it out
if you do the infused oils you will see how much thicker the stuff is.
make sure to squeeze all that delicious goodness out after you have done the initial straining.
bit more hands on - -
if you wrap a baggie around the top you can get an extra squeeze out. would normally do this with gloves, but those are needed better places these days.
make sure you invert the clean side of the baggie around the squeezed out weed.
keep it in the cheesecloth and all. pop the baggie in the freezer. it will keep indefinite. dump the weed - sans cheesecloth duh - in your favorite recipe for a sweet weed edible. have never tossed anything from a vg infusion. ever. so yummy.
anyway you should end up with something like this.
will generally be deep dark honey to brown colour with green hue.
dropper bottles are the best way to divvy it up. i have a clean syringe and tube rig i use to help. it's not hard to take apart and clean after. i found it easier than tiny funnels.
should get something like this .. i get all drooly looking at it sometime ...
dosing is 1 - 2 dropper fulls sublingual - placed under the tongue - hold it there as long as you can without swallowing. it's hard - delicious.
wait 20 - 30 min between dosing to get a clear idea of where you are going. especially with a thc tincture.
length can be close to an edible but onset is faster. way faster.
i do mostly med stuff - but i have folk begging for the thc cooks. and well you know.
if they don't grow i just kinda shrug as i'm not in sales ...
to increase absorption : i recommend heating a cup of water in a microwave the same as you would a cup of coffee. place the dropper bottle in the cup for a minute or so before dosing to warm it.
flavour is about what you think the base weed would be if sweet and delicious lol
some folk report a slight "burnt" taste. sometime the weed terpenes contribute to this, but i notice it is more present in this method. there may be a slight caramelization of some of the sugars in the vg that would contribute as well. it really varies with the weed. you get a great expression of the terpene flavours, so who cares ..
extraction is pretty decent -- a flat guess is 70 - 75%.
i really like the cbd cook stuff. i give a bunch to my folks. super great for a general hit cbd bomb .
have watched their movement and moods improve real time on dosing.
they don't even realize -- all they know is everything is ok so i'll keep doing it ...
happy easter guys. stay safe. connect with family if you can't be there in person.
this is my easter egg to you ...
Hey Bluter!
This "Making a glycerin extract" post was great. I have a couple of storage questions.
1. How long does it keep?
2. Any special storage issues to keep in mind, dark bottles out of sunlight, or keep refrigerated, or ....?
My guess is that due to the infused sweetness it's probably unlikely to need to last all that long, but you know, just in case.
Hey Azimuth,
I’m sure you are miles ahead of me with your studies and yes while it’s not true hydro with a res - Nutty is using Jadam in coco….
good evening Bluter - apologies for butting in, hope all is well in your neck of the woods!!!
I’m sure you are miles ahead of me with your studies and yes while it’s not true hydro with a res - Nutty is using Jadam in coco….
good evening Bluter - apologies for butting in, hope all is well in your neck of the woods!!!
Coco? You sure?
I know he was amending his substrate pretty heavily with manures, crab shells, compost and other stuff. I guess I just assumed it was peat based like lots of the other amended mixes.
I know he was amending his substrate pretty heavily with manures, crab shells, compost and other stuff. I guess I just assumed it was peat based like lots of the other amended mixes.
- Thread starter
- #1,835
keeps indefinite if refrigerated. i've had unrefrigerated bottles of the stuff for use for a good 3 months or so without trouble
My guess is that due to the infused sweetness it's probably unlikely to need to last all that long, but you know, just in case.
those i give it to usually roll through it pretty fast
hi felipe. i haven't been around as much here as i'd like lately.
Hi bluter! 
THAT was the right answer!
Or at least the one I was hoping for.
Yeah, I can see that angle. Probably like brownies or chocolate chip cookies. Easy to lose sight of the "extras" included with the yummy taste.
Can I ask for a clarification?THAT was the right answer!
Or at least the one I was hoping for.
Yeah, I can see that angle. Probably like brownies or chocolate chip cookies. Easy to lose sight of the "extras" included with the yummy taste.
You talk about a couple of different measurements which left me a bit confused. You said the recipe was generally for 500 ml, but then mentioned 250 ml because it bubbles up too much but then still showed the 500ml bottle, and then mentioned 20-24 grams is best "for this recipe."
Sooooo, are we talkin' 20-24 grams for 500ml or 250ml?
I read it a few times and can't seem to figure it out on my own (and I'm not even high, I promise).
Bluter - I know you are a multitalented dude so figured you have been busy lately. Hey BTW’s I’m finally getting a plant going in one of those 30 gallon smart pots where we suspected hemp russet mites. Running a crap load of beneficial insects so might be ok or could crash & burn….. hope your parents are ok
Azimuth - I just asked Nutty to confirm if he was running Jadam on coco, he has not replied yet but heres link Nutty Jadam on coco question
Azimuth - I just asked Nutty to confirm if he was running Jadam on coco, he has not replied yet but heres link Nutty Jadam on coco question
