Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Carmen Ray]

Thanks, but I was talking about this daily chart:

Shed, how would I work out the DLI for my plants considering loadshedding? Is it even possible? Given that loadshedding is between 2.5 and 12 hours a day, is my best strategy to leave the lights on at 100 % all the time and hope for the best outcome?

 

[InTheShed]

Shed, how would I work out the DLI for my plants considering loadshedding? Is it even possible? Given that loadshedding is between 2.5 and 12 hours a day, is my best strategy to leave the lights on at 100 % all the time and hope for the best outcome?

I'll take this over to your Chocolate And Blueberries thread...

 

[Jon]

I have the 5x5 version of the identical light, the E series. I exceed those numbers by compromising the proximity and deal with the foxtails. Lmao. Interesting chart, you do that for all your grows? And wow, do you do it slow and gradual. I don’t have the patience for that. I begin at 400 ppfd out of the soil. As soon as they have two sets of real leaves I’m at 600, and I work up to 900 pre flip or pre flower (autos). Stretch I’m at 1000-1100 and from there whatever the plant can take. Lol. It’s fascinating to me how many different approaches there are from a large group with a common goal: YIELD. Ha.

A lot of my philosophy is based on my perception of what happens in nature. Growing wild, I don’t know a geography where a seedling would ever see 100 ppfd or even 400 from the sun. They can begin way higher if necessary. At midday on a clear day in the summer here I’m +2000 ppfd in the sun. My outdoor plants always love it. I know it’s different somehow with LED but I still think of nature when I consider toleran

Thank you for clarifying. I might have copy/pasted from a different grow journal. Mea culpa!

Yeh, that's…the big MOFO! That's a very nice PPFD map on that light. Wonder if I could fold it and get it into my 2' x 4' tent? ;-)



Pros and cons! I had that in this grow from 2 years ago. Gelatos grown from seeds, same seed pack. I set the main light at 1200± to try to light the canopy. Ugliness ensued. Lots of foxtails before I got my head out of my ass an bought a little Vipar XS-1500

"slow and gradual" -those are pretty much the highest values that I've given my plants. I start at "typical seedling level" but I know, for this grow at least, I was "slacking" a bit. I appreciate the comment, though. For my next grow, I'll be more aware of that.

Autos. vs photos - haven't seen a difference. I've done five autos and only a couple of photos but I can't say that I've seen much of a difference in tolerance. I don't constantly push them once I'm at 900-1k. This data is from my current grow. The plant is doing well and I don't muck with it unless I need to. At the moment, it's at 292 watts (330 watt Growcraft) so I can turn it up a bit.

Hah! You talked me into it! I'll see if I can bump things up a bit this weekend!

Lol! Don’t put it on me, I wasn’t trying to talk you into anything!!! Yeah idk, I haven’t been able to decide if I’m making it up or if I really see the difference in light tolerances I *think* I see between autos and photos. I need to do some side by sides. In a sense we’re all flying blind.

 

[Jon]

Shed, how would I work out the DLI for my plants considering loadshedding? Is it even possible? Given that loadshedding is between 2.5 and 12 hours a day, is my best strategy to leave the lights on at 100 % all the time and hope for the best outcome?

Loadshedding?

 

[Mayne]

Interesting

Im at day 21 for my auto. 77F--65% --RH 800par
starting to taco. Backing her down to 400
tonight she gets 8 hours of sleep since life began.

 

[NickHardy]

Loadshedding?

Its what they call the daily power cuts in South Africa. There isn’t enough electricity generating capacity so they schedule power cuts to different areas at different times. Started in the mid 2000’s when I lived there but has now come back with a vengeance.

 

[Mayne]

i have a theory, that if we put greenhouse panels above the plants, using LEDs will help with different elements that LEDs problems.

actually,,,,,,,, im going to get some this week. THEN, the 2200 par like outside might not be so dangerous for the plant, as long as you keep her cool. The light will be blended differently once it passes thru the panel, more even, instead of lazer like. Ive been planing this for some time, to test my theory, using solexx diffusion panels, just never got to it.

Outside ambient CO2,,,,,, 412PPM
and like Jon said, watts equal quantity (growboss pushed this too) I think if diffused, 2000 par will grow monster plants with ambient co2, IT HAS TO, no?

 

[NickHardy]

i have a theory, that if we put greenhouse panels above the plants, using LEDs will help with different elements that LEDs problems.

actually,,,,,,,, im going to get some this week. THEN, the 2200 par like outside might not be so dangerous for the plant, as long as you keep her cool. The light will be blended differently once it passes thru the panel, more even, instead of lazer like. Ive been planing this for some time, to test my theory, using solexx diffusion panels, just never got to it.

Outside ambient CO2,,,,,, 412PPM
and like Jon said, watts equal quantity (growboss pushed this too) I think if diffused, 2000 par will grow monster plants with ambient co2, IT HAS TO, no?

The manufacturers spend quite a lot of time and money researching “blending” their lights - @ViparSpectra new models have a secondary lens over the diodes to focus them so ai’m not sure you’re going to see a benefit.

Co2 you can say is around 400
But it depends where you are in the world, city, rural, jungle and the latitudes you’re in. Its generally recommended to take your baseline reading outdoors at midday but we’re talking parts per million and that fluctuates with the breeze. Its dry season here and lots of the big banana trees are wilting near the house releasing Co2 as they decompose - my background it probably closer to 500. Choose your sensor carefully, I found the ones that look like a digital clock about useless.

HPS gives off IR, same as heat lamps in the cafeteria. LED's don't give off IR because plants can't use it and because it would tend to heat the grow, like HPS does.

Yep agreed HPS looks like an orange sun. Modern LED also provide IR though. In fact the FC-E4800 we both have do it with electro red diodes, I also have a FC4800 and 3 FC6500 which do it with Osram reds and my Meijiu I think the electrobridge.

Here’s a light reading taken before Christmas, not done one for a while:

The black represents IR

Its really how they qualify as “Full Spectrum” Cool white at 5000k Warm at 3000k and then near and far reds.

This compares to say 2800k for an HPS.

Nick

 

[Olddog Newtrick]

i have a theory, that if we put greenhouse panels above the plants, using LEDs will help with different elements that LEDs problems.

actually,,,,,,,, im going to get some this week. THEN, the 2200 par like outside might not be so dangerous for the plant, as long as you keep her cool. The light will be blended differently once it passes thru the panel, more even, instead of lazer like. Ive been planing this for some time, to test my theory, using solexx diffusion panels, just never got to it.

Outside ambient CO2,,,,,, 412PPM
and like Jon said, watts equal quantity (growboss pushed this too) I think if diffused, 2000 par will grow monster plants with ambient co2, IT HAS TO, no?

My question is at what point is more not better?
We can grow at 1k all day, a plant can handle 2k from noon sun at ambient co2 but, surely would burn up if exposed to that level for long periods.
Being a welder, I’ve read a welding arc is 2.5 times as bright as the sun so…5k? I can work outside all day in direct sun but, at 5k it doesn’t take but a few moments to blister your eyeballs and burn your skin to a crisp. So what’s the balance of intensity over our 12 hour time frame.
With autos, you can run. 24/0 schedule, would the peak intensity be less? If not, and watts = yield, an auto at 2k par on a 24 hour schedule should be able to grow buds the size of a Buick.

 

[Jon]

Interesting

Im at day 21 for my auto. 77F--65% --RH 800par
starting to taco. Backing her down to 400
tonight she gets 8 hours of sleep since life began.

Yeah for some strains I have found my basic ppfd recipe as I listed is a bit hot, especially in mid to late veg, which is about where your auto likely is on day 21, yes? I’ve also experienced taco-ing at 800/900 ppfd. But that’s in veg, on day 21, presumably (and hopefully!). I would guess blindly that once you hit the stretch she’ll be able to take that. Blind guess.

 

[Jon]

It’s what they call the daily power cuts in South Africa. There isn’t enough electricity generating capacity so they schedule power cuts to different areas at different times. Started in the mid 2000’s when I lived there but has now come back with a vengeance.

Oh thanks. Interesting but it’s gotta be a PITA for the folks there and especially for growers. Ouch.

 

[Jon]

i have a theory, that if we put greenhouse panels above the plants, using LEDs will help with different elements that LEDs problems.

actually,,,,,,,, im going to get some this week. THEN, the 2200 par like outside might not be so dangerous for the plant, as long as you keep her cool. The light will be blended differently once it passes thru the panel, more even, instead of lazer like. Ive been planing this for some time, to test my theory, using solexx diffusion panels, just never got to it.

Outside ambient CO2,,,,,, 412PPM
and like Jon said, watts equal quantity (growboss pushed this too) I think if diffused, 2000 par will grow monster plants with ambient co2, IT HAS TO, no?

I love this. FWIW - my Yoda in Oregon is a pro grower (licensed and all that) and he grows in giant greenhouses. The ceilings are obviously greenhouse panels, as he is basically growing outside but in a greenhouse. Like many higher volume professionals do. Then he augments the sun with overhead high end and high output commercial LEDs, formerly Gavitas and now has switched to Fohse (imo, best grow light on earth). By day he’s all sun. For night hours requiring daylight, at night his system is such that black panels come down from the crown of the roof and cover the entire greenhouse. (SUPER expensive). Now he has a 100 foot long and 40 foot wide grow tent effectively and switches to the LEDs to fill the night hours and has perfect dark at night. But regarding your blending idea, that’s what he does as the day progresses. Around maybe 3 pm or so, when the sun gets lower, he begins to blend the sun and LEDs. So it’s a gradual switch that goes all sun > sun + LED > all LED. He has a ton of success doing it this way and he would be a strong advocate for your idea. How you blend and control the ppfd on the LED in your scenario I would guess will be a learning curve.

 

[Jon]

My question is at what point is more not better?
We can grow at 1k all day, a plant can handle 2k from noon sun at ambient co2 but, surely would burn up if exposed to that level for long periods.
Being a welder, I’ve read a welding arc is 2.5 times as bright as the sun so…5k? I can work outside all day in direct sun but, at 5k it doesn’t take but a few moments to blister your eyeballs and burn your skin to a crisp. So what’s the balance of intensity over our 12 hour time frame.
With autos, you can run. 24/0 schedule, would the peak intensity be less? If not, and watts = yield, an auto at 2k par on a 24 hour schedule should be able to grow buds the size of a Buick.

Interesting. Not sure 24/0 is the way to max an auto though. I tried that first. Then I tried 18/6. Then I went to 20/4. And after growing dozens of autos over several grows, I’ve come to the conclusion that they produce the best at 24/0 for all of veg, and 20/4 starting at the stretch to the end. The 20/4 for flower and stretch is because everyone who promotes autos at 24/0 start to finish is ignoring (imho) the fact the the plant needs rest and dark time even if it’s an auto. Dark time includes processes that don’t take place in the light and the plant produces better when it can complete them. (Gotta ask someone like @Azimuth or @Keffka about what happens at night vs day but I know it’s important, lol). Anyway that’s my take on it.

 

[Jon]

Gorilla Cookies Semi Organic
@GeoFlora Nutrients + FFOF + amendments
2.5 gallon pot

This is the organic entry of the 3 Gorilla Cookies from 420FastBuds in this grow. Boy did I get lucky with this strain as it was a blind selection I’ve never grown and makes up 1/3 of the grow (3 of 9 plants). Supposed to be a great yielder.

This little version is awesome. She’s super straight and stacking nicely and may even be the first girl to harvest. I should get four or five ounces from this plant. She’s a fill in, as are all four organics. They fill the gaps between the five giants.

Here’s some pictures of her. She is sitting in half ambient light and half light from the tent so she looks a bit odd color wise. The closeup shot is closest to her real colors, which are perfect.

 

[KeithLemon]

Very nice-looking Plant Jon.

 

[Delps8]

Thanks, but I was talking about this daily chart:

Thank you for catching that. I reuse my grow journal and hadn't updated from an auto grow.

 

[InTheShed]

Thank you for catching that. I reuse my grow journal and hadn't updated from an auto grow.

So the DLI numbers from day 26-46 are correct or incorrect? I actually wasn't referring to your highlighted area.

DLI charts for cannabis that I've seen never get into the 60-80+ range.

 

[Delps8]

So the DLI numbers from day 26-46 are correct or incorrect? I actually wasn't referring to your highlighted area.

DLI charts for cannabis that I've seen never get into the 60-80+ range.

Those values are correct. These are the readings from 2/14/24:

I usually switch from 24/0 after topping or, perhaps, "mid-veg". I decided to run 24/0 through veg for this grow. The italicized values are infilled because I didn't take readings.

The data from my 2301 grow is below. This was my first photoperiod grow (apart from one grow in 2017). The Visa

 

[Jon]

Those values are correct. These are the readings from 2/14/24:

I usually switch from 24/0 after topping or, perhaps, "mid-veg". I decided to run 24/0 through veg for this grow. The italicized values are infilled because I didn't take readings.

The data from my 2301 grow is below. This was my first photoperiod grow (apart from one grow in 2017). The Visa

Wow. I wish I had whatever it takes to document my grows on a daily basis like this. I just don’t, lol. But many do, and it’s just gotta help to not have to keep all that information in your head. I have tended to solve this problem by over posting in my journals and using them to document my grows. And since I’ve learned that the servers and hosting here are handled by one of the largest and best companies in Canada, I feel like they’ll last forever.

Fun fact for the day, which I just by chance learned from the boss himself today: this site is 10,000,000 pages!!! That’s TEN MILLION PAGES. Goddamn.

 

[Jon]

Question for anyone with reservoir experience:

I have two reservoirs in my tent. Both are five gallons, with small coco pots on top. One is Cyco nutes, one is Remo nutes, and both are on flower week two by the book on both systems. Both have the identical airstone, pump, and degree of output, and are maintained at the same temperature (67-ish degrees). The only difference is the nute systems.

The Remo reservoir over a week goes down in Ph.

The Cyco reservoir over a week goes up in Ph.

My question is, why?