Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Mayne]

Dr. says 1200 ppm co2 is max saturation. Get your room to that number and then increase your lights if needed. If your environment, genetics, and everything else is on point, he says to expect 30% increase in photosynthesis and yield.

I just currently started a auto run, and going to get it to 1200ppms for entire grow and see what the results will be.

Funny, im using my cob rig i built using the same cobs Shane used in his first migro light, the Luminus cxm's

 

[Jon]

Morning Jo

Morning Jon. Shane from Migro did a video some time back, Dr. Buggy did a video, and just recently, Scotty Real did a video and actually used 800 as a fair marker. Growmau5 did also lonnng time ago, ...

Cool some reference points! My experience is that sure, plants will flower at 800 and do fine and if you flower at as high as they can handle (for me that’s usually in the 1200-1300 range) they’ll get bigger and denser.

 

[Mayne]

they have no choice but to grow, lol.. if your hitting that range, your light spread and distribution is greater, hitting deeper, which equals more photosynthesis alone. Nice! Ive seen your grows brother, your not slackin.

 

[Jon]

Dr. says 1200 ppm co2 is max saturation. Get your room to that number and then increase your lights if needed. If your environment, genetics, and everything else is on point, he says to expect 30% increase in photosynthesis and yield.

I just currently started a auto run, and going to get it to 1200ppms for entire grow and see what the results will be.

Funny, im using my cob rig i built using the same cobs Shane used in his first migro light, the Luminus cxm's

Another thing that might help: autos almost invariably can handle and want to handle higher light than photos. With photos I’m much more conservative with light. But with autos, here’s my basic numbers if I were to chart them:

- they break ground into an already on light set around 500-600 ppfd. This ensures fast growth without burning and quick development of actual first leave and such. It also makes almost every strain stretch proof. If that makes people nervous just think about a sprout in the wild under the sun. They sprout into numbers at least that high. It’s ok. They like it.
- I gradually bring it up as they make more leaves. You burn a plant when your light level exceeds the plants possible photosynthetic ability, which is a function of leaves and health. A healthy plant generating new nodes can easily handle light increase as they generate. By the stretch I’m usually at around 1000-1100.
- after the stretch and when I have budlets on the colas I again gradually increase light and I will go as high as they let me. Usually around 1300. I find for the way I’m doing it they will often begin to foxtail above 1300, but I have had strains that loved it in the 1400s a few times.

Also - my understanding regarding that max ppfd with co2 thing you said is that with co2 only the strain sets the limit. You can operate hotter and with much higher ppfd once you get it dialed in. But 1500+ is not uncommon although like Nick that seems insane. But standard co2 thinking for home growers I thought was targeting around 1500.

FWIW.

 

[NickHardy]

11-1300 is the range for Co2. Some say 1400 for flower. I set my controller for 1100 low (Switch On) 1300 high (Switch Off) you move the sensor an inch you get a different reading. Calibrate two and they read different side by side. Its gas being whipped around the tent.

One thing I read from a commercial grower shilling for Pulse Grow I have a sensor from, said match your Co2 and nute PPM to your PPFD through your grow. I’m generally not far off that (I think I’ve checked nute PPM like 3 times in 6’ months, I use EC)

In early veg 900 ppm Co2 900 ppm nutes and 900 PPFD with a VPD of 0.9 you’re living the dream. I’m probably a bit above there now apart from the light. Maybe 700 PPFD now? I’ll check in a minute. I’ll probably pop it up tomorrow now they’ve got used to the different spectrum

.

 

[Jon]

they have no choice but to grow, lol.. if your hitting that range, your light spread and distribution is greater, hitting deeper, which equals more photosynthesis alone. Nice! Ive seen your grows brother, your not slackin.

Nor are you my man! I just like the discussion. It’s educational for all!

 

[Jon]

11-1300 is the range for Co2. Some say 1400 for flower. I set my controller for 1100 low (Switch On) 1300 high (Switch Off) you move the sensor an inch you get a different reading. Calibrate two and they read different side by side. Its gas being whipped around the tent.

One thing I read from a commercial grower shilling for Pulse Grow I have a sensor from, said match your Co2 and nute PPM to your PPFD through your grow. I’m generally not far off that (I think I’ve checked nute PPM like 3 times in 6’ months, I use EC)

In early veg 900 ppm Co2 900 ppm nutes and 900 PPFD with a VPD of 0.9 you’re living the dream. I’m probably a bit above there now apart from the light. Maybe 700 PPFD now? I’ll check in a minute. I’ll probably pop it up tomorrow now they’ve got used to the different spectrum

.

Just on my base co2 knowledge and without having done it, that is incorrect. Way higher. I have no co2 and this tent will flower at 1300. You can go way higher or else you have no need for co2.

 

[NickHardy]

D’uh - turned the light up this morning already. VPD is low prefer 1.2 now BUT - the Rh have two other sensors both reading 32c and both reading 60% and they’re in the middle the tent. This can’t be as it messes the other sensors. So VPD is probably more like 1.2.

PPM - where’s my tester? Does it even work any more

1040 PPM in the fert tank.

Not bad.

EC is 2.0 - Dutch Pro recommend 1.6-1.8 in Veg but specify that’s with out Co2 Enrichment.

So mid/late Veg

VPD* 1.2
EC 2.0
Co2 825 PPM
Nutes 1040 PPM
PPFD 941

Give myself a 9/10 - not checked the sensors until now. Just looked right.

 

[Jon]

Gorilla Cookies
Day 28

This is the current smaller of the two GCs. She sits in the back left corner in 2.5 gallons of coco atop a five gallon reservoir. The res gets switched tomorrow to week five veg of the Cyco Platinum full series. About a week ago plus she got the week three Grow XL application that’s one time only. Zero negative effects. Made the plant have a temporary growth spurt. Small but noticeable. No burnt tips, no leaves curled at the end, awesome color. For the small pot she’s huge. The roots are just now getting though in the middle underneath as the bottom layer of perlite in the pot slows the roots at the bottom. The layer is unnecessary. I won’t do it again. The Apple Fritter with no perlite bottom has much more root mass in the res and got there quicker. Maybe for photos but with autos no perlite bottom next time. But now she should begin to take off a bit more. The GC in the 10 of coco is way larger. This one will catch up before flower I suspect. This res has now held steady in the narrow 5.6 to 5.9 range for ten days. It’s astounding. Never had one stay this steady. Is this due to the Cyco in some way? A rocking air stone? The right temperature? All of the above? I don’t know but it’s working so far very well. The AF is too.

Here she is. The last picture is pretty close to her actual color.

 

[Jon]

D’uh - turned the light up this morning already. VPD is low prefer 1.2 now BUT - the Rh have two other sensors both reading 32c and both reading 60% and they’re in the middle the tent. This can’t be as it messes the other sensors. So VPD is probably more like 1.2.

PPM - where’s my tester? Does it even work any more

1040 PPM in the fert tank.

Not bad.

EC is 2.0 - Dutch Pro recommend 1.6-1.8 in Veg but specify that’s with out Co2 Enrichment.

So mid/late Veg

VPD* 1.2
EC 2.0
Co2 825 PPM
Nutes 1040 PPM
PPFD 941

Give myself a 9/10 - not checked the sensors until now. Just looked right.

Feels good when you’re dialed in doesn’t it? Me too. We are both giving this our best effort. Hope people enjoy the ride. Regardless of the competition it’s a great comparison in two entirely different styles attempting to reach the same goal.

 

[NickHardy]

Just on my base co2 knowledge and without having done it, that is incorrect. Way higher. I have no co2 and this tent will flower at 1300. You can go way higher or else you have no need for co2.

Yeah 1400 and sometimes 1500 are mentioned but apart from one Commercial US Farm on Cannacribs I’ve never seen higher than that. Not all episodes have PPFD reading and none of them I’ve seen mention Co2 but some are def using it. You glimpse sensors. Also my Photone app readings were higher than my Pulse. I have a Un-T sensor downstairs un opened. Potential issue with my driver and its Chinese New Year so the factory is shut for two weeks - but I want a third reading because I can’t get close to 1400 let alone the 1600 I hit before.

 

[Jon]

Skywalker Organic

A superstar in her own right, this is the organic Skywalker in a 3 of FFOF soil with Geoflora, RGR, bokashi, frass, EWC, Great White, kelp and fish ferts. I learned the recipe for Skywalker last time. This one shows it, she is way sweeter than my first and the first was awesome.

Here she is. In the second picture, she is back left. Note that even in a three and in soil she is more than keeping pace with the coco plants. To me that means I nailed my soil mix and let it age the full preferred two weeks before planting. My colony looks quite happy judging by the plant.

 

[Jon]

Here’s the larger of the two Gorilla Cookies. Absolute beast. Auto guys - grow this! Jesus you’ll go insane! What a strain!! Best by far I ever got from 420FastBuds. By far. Easy and awesome plant. This one is already 2 1/2 feet across the canopy. The stretch and up will now determine how wide I have to go.

 

[Jon]

This is fun. Check this out guys.

This is something I definitely do NOT recommend. Do NOT try this unless you have significant training experience and are really good at supercropping.

One of the things you’re not supposed to do is supercrop the main stem of the plant. If you did it as part of maybe @con style training then yes, but generally no. The plant has to be young and flexible if you’re going to mess with the main. Otherwise, once it’s big and stiff and thick, almost nobody tries to mess with the main. Too big a risk. Breaking one shoot is nothing. Break your main and bye bye.

I laugh at risk and make risk my bitch. I needed to lower the main of the Skywalker just a bit. Like two inches. Only way to do it was chop the two tops or attempt to bend the main. Tried several times without supercropping. Nope. It is a rock and thick and strong and no way. I’d pull the plant out of the pot.

So I went to work. What you see here is what I needed. It took me a week. Patiently squeezing and rolling the same spot day after day with infinitesimally small bends/tie downs. To be clear, this is not actually supercropped by definition and yes I know the difference. This is an assisted bend using supercropping technique and a partial supercrop-esque breaking of the outer cell walls in the main. But I don’t know how else to describe it but a partial sc. Anyway, it may not look like much but this is pushing a 30 degree bend. It’s a lot. And it gave me the two-three inches I needed. Phew. Done with her. I’ve done this before but this is by far the most extreme.

So the first picture is the top. In the second, the cola in the foreground is your 90 degree reference point and you can see the actual angled bend behind her in the background.

 

[Jon]

This is fun. Check this out guys.

This is something I definitely do NOT recommend. Do NOT try this unless you have significant training experience and are really good at supercropping.

One of the things you’re not supposed to do is supercrop the main stem of the plant. If you did it as part of maybe @con style training then yes, but generally no. The plant has to be young and flexible if you’re going to mess with the main. Otherwise, once it’s big and stiff and thick, almost nobody tries to mess with the main. Too big a risk. Breaking one shoot is nothing. Break your main and bye bye.

I laugh at risk and make risk my bitch. I needed to lower the main of the Skywalker just a bit. Like two inches. Only way to do it was chop the two tops or attempt to bend the main. Tried several times without supercropping. Nope. It is a rock and thick and strong and no way. I’d pull the plant out of the pot.

So I went to work. What you see here is what I needed. It took me a week. Patiently squeezing and rolling the same spot day after day with infinitesimally small bends/tie downs. To be clear, this is not actually supercropped by definition and yes I know the difference. This is an assisted bend using supercropping technique and a partial supercrop-esque breaking of the outer cell walls in the main. But I don’t know how else to describe it but a partial sc. Anyway, it may not look like much but this is pushing a 30 degree bend. It’s a lot. And it gave me the two-three inches I needed. Phew. Done with her. I’ve done this before but this is by far the most extreme.

So the first picture is the top. In the second, the cola in the foreground is your 90 degree reference point and you can see the actual angled bend behind her in the background.

The yellow arrow points to right below what you can see. It’s behind that leaf, right below the node at the bottom of what’s visible on the stem. The work was there. Above that node, indicated by the red arrow, is the top, which is what is benefiting from the work. Due to her position and my chair I cannot picture the actual spot I worked. Tried.

 

[Wastei]

Sorry for the interruption
How much do you guys smoke a day? Off topic I know but both you guys have big yields after harvest.
I've been smoking about a ounce a week with edibles and seems to to the trick with the pain and other shit. Just curious fellows
Cheers

I

This is fun. Check this out guys.

This is something I definitely do NOT recommend. Do NOT try this unless you have significant training experience and are really good at supercropping.

One of the things you’re not supposed to do is supercrop the main stem of the plant. If you did it as part of maybe @con style training then yes, but generally no. The plant has to be young and flexible if you’re going to mess with the main. Otherwise, once it’s big and stiff and thick, almost nobody tries to mess with the main. Too big a risk. Breaking one shoot is nothing. Break your main and bye bye.

I laugh at risk and make risk my bitch. I needed to lower the main of the Skywalker just a bit. Like two inches. Only way to do it was chop the two tops or attempt to bend the main. Tried several times without supercropping. Nope. It is a rock and thick and strong and no way. I’d pull the plant out of the pot.

So I went to work. What you see here is what I needed. It took me a week. Patiently squeezing and rolling the same spot day after day with infinitesimally small bends/tie downs. To be clear, this is not actually supercropped by definition and yes I know the difference. This is an assisted bend using supercropping technique and a partial supercrop-esque breaking of the outer cell walls in the main. But I don’t know how else to describe it but a partial sc. Anyway, it may not look like much but this is pushing a 30 degree bend. It’s a lot. And it gave me the two-three inches I needed. Phew. Done with her. I’ve done this before but this is by far the most extreme.

So the first picture is the top. In the second, the cola in the foreground is your 90 degree reference point and you can see the actual angled bend behind her in the background.

This is fun. Check this out guys.

This is something I definitely do NOT recommend. Do NOT try this unless you have significant training experience and are really good at supercropping.

One of the things you’re not supposed to do is supercrop the main stem of the plant. If you did it as part of maybe @con style training then yes, but generally no. The plant has to be young and flexible if you’re going to mess with the main. Otherwise, once it’s big and stiff and thick, almost nobody tries to mess with the main. Too big a risk. Breaking one shoot is nothing. Break your main and bye bye.

I laugh at risk and make risk my bitch. I needed to lower the main of the Skywalker just a bit. Like two inches. Only way to do it was chop the two tops or attempt to bend the main. Tried several times without supercropping. Nope. It is a rock and thick and strong and no way. I’d pull the plant out of the pot.

So I went to work. What you see here is what I needed. It took me a week. Patiently squeezing and rolling the same spot day after day with infinitesimally small bends/tie downs. To be clear, this is not actually supercropped by definition and yes I know the difference. This is an assisted bend using supercropping technique and a partial supercrop-esque breaking of the outer cell walls in the main. But I don’t know how else to describe it but a partial sc. Anyway, it may not look like much but this is pushing a 30 degree bend. It’s a lot. And it gave me the two-three inches I needed. Phew. Done with her. I’ve done this before but this is by far the most extreme.

So the first picture is the top. In the second, the cola in the foreground is your 90 degree reference point and you can see the actual angled bend behind her in the background.

Hg

This is fun. Check this out guys.

This is something I definitely do NOT recommend. Do NOT try this unless you have significant training experience and are really good at supercropping.

One of the things you’re not supposed to do is supercrop the main stem of the plant. If you did it as part of maybe @con style training then yes, but generally no. The plant has to be young and flexible if you’re going to mess with the main. Otherwise, once it’s big and stiff and thick, almost nobody tries to mess with the main. Too big a risk. Breaking one shoot is nothing. Break your main and bye bye.

I laugh at risk and make risk my bitch. I needed to lower the main of the Skywalker just a bit. Like two inches. Only way to do it was chop the two tops or attempt to bend the main. Tried several times without supercropping. Nope. It is a rock and thick and strong and no way. I’d pull the plant out of the pot.

So I went to work. What you see here is what I needed. It took me a week. Patiently squeezing and rolling the same spot day after day with infinitesimally small bends/tie downs. To be clear, this is not actually supercropped by definition and yes I know the difference. This is an assisted bend using supercropping technique and a partial supercrop-esque breaking of the outer cell walls in the main. But I don’t know how else to describe it but a partial sc. Anyway, it may not look like much but this is pushing a 30 degree bend. It’s a lot. And it gave me the two-three inches I needed. Phew. Done with her. I’ve done this before but this is by far the most extreme.

So the first picture is the top. In the second, the cola in the foreground is your 90 degree reference point and you can see the actual angled bend behind her in the background.

Bent and broke all the mains during stretch. 24h difference.

Cheers!

 

[Jon]

I



Hg

Bent and broke all the mains during stretch. 24h difference.

Cheers!

Case in point. You have a ton more experience than some of the folks watching here. Most everyone knows that anything I post, if it contains a warning, is aimed at newer growers who may be reading. For a new grower you’ve got to agree it is not a good idea and the chances of success are minimal. Thus my warning. Can it be done and done effectively? Of course. It’s just a weed. It’ll do whatever and recover however. But ain’t none among us gonna produce our best with a broken main regardless of skill level.

 

[Jon]

This is what late afternoon early evening looks like these days Nick. I unstretch them each morning and let them bounce back the rest of the day. Unstretch means whatever I have to do to keep it lower. But a few of these are super stretchers and a few are minimal. Six strains. Yet somehow Nick I still have a reasonably flat canopy across 9 plants. Easily within tweaking distance. Of course the joy of joys is the fact that the biggest and most likely to Hiroshima on me plant, the GC, is one of these huge stretchers. Oy! She’s a challenge for sure.

 

[Roy Growin]

Fuuuck

 

[Jon]

A word on the Skywalker strain…

I’ve grown this strain three times now. Including a photo. In all cases the plant has the same structure. I know enough about it from researching the strain (the first one really grabbed me, it’s in my super sweet spot for strains) that it has a rep for not super great production and minimal fan leafing. It’s a strain you’d grow cuz you like it. The reason I post this is in case anyone hasn’t grown it yet but wants to. My suggestion is don’t take a single leaf!!! She is the least fan leafy or sugar leafy strain I’ve ever grown. At first I thought I screwed the plant up somehow. Even through the stretch when you normally see a big sugar leaf push at least, hardly anything. Taking one fan from a Skywalker is never necessary, which makes her a super super easy plant to grow, train, or whatever. She also has very very long spacing between new growth on her stems. So you get long expanses of stem to a pair of buds, then the tops turn into one. Probably the main reason for her so so production. That is what the first one did and the two I have now show to be doing the exact same thing. It’s enough for me to feel confident enough in this post. This is the structure of Skywalker.

That said, why grow it? Cuz it’s awesome. Beautiful all day smoke. Medium thc, maybe 24-26 %. Woody, a little citrus, a little sweet, a good amount of earthiness, maybe even a bit nutty, and tons of dank. Tastes like real pot if that makes sense. Old school taste and buzz. Surprised it took me this long to gravitate to it. It’s definitely on the sativa side with the buzz, but not nearly the chest pump type sativa. Smooth. Soft smoke. I dig it a lot.

My two cents on Skywalker for tonight.