Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[con]

So easy...

Uncle Ben's Topping Method

thanks azimuth

 

[Jon]

There are some of us with anecdotal evidence that topping at the right time can stall flower. I've heard some of the experts mention this as a thing, including @Justin Goody. Is there scientific evidence that says it's a myth that topping affects the rate at which the plant heads into flower. Afterall, the wrong kind of topping will ruin a plant.

You should be aware that you are one of the better auto growers on the site. I think @Virgin Ground has also said something about topping slowing flower but I may be mistaken.

Don't forget that you have studied autoflower plants intensively and this is why you read them and get the results you do. You know when and where to top for best effect, which is often not the case for many growers.

Thank you @Carmen Ray! I so much appreciate your input and always welcome discussion on anything I may say or assert.

To your questions/points:

- I was not presenting scientific evidence. It was Emilya who I am echoing with this assertion. She and I discussed this exact question many moons ago and she was quite clear that there is no relationship between topping and rate with which a plant goes to flower. With photos it’s not the case cuz duh, topping or not photos go to flower whenever we tell them to. And the same goes for autos. In the case of our discussions at that time neither of us was talking about autos. But since then I have grown getting close to three digits worth of autos. Several have been thoroughly documented here in the forum. And I have topped once, twice, and thrice. I’ve topped side branches only and not the main. The main and not the sides. I’ve topped at every possible point in time in the lifecycle of an auto except for in flower (I never top in flower, you never should either. Ever.). Early. Way late as she was stretching. And every time in between. I’ve done this repeatedly with the same strain in two separate tests over time, using the Watermelon Wedding Cake and the Platinum Mimosa Cookies. Hybrids, Sativas, indicas. Fast flowering. You name it I’ve topped that way with autos.

In all of that body of work I never one time saw the slightest indicator on any level that topping affected rate to flower for the plant. No matter what I have done, ANY kind of training (also 100% unrelated to rate to flower) and I’ve tried a shitload as you’ve seen and know. The same strain flowers at approximately the same time every single time without fail. The only difference is phenotype variation.

The genetics of an auto, and ONLY the genetics of an auto, determine when it will flip itself to flower. We cannot affect it no matter what we do. It is preordained before you open the seed pack.

I’ve been asserting this for a long time and not one master here, and I interact with many of them, has been able to prove me wrong.

Is it science I can prove on paper? No.

Take my word for it. Or not. I understand that there are certainly very excellent and more experienced growers here than me who disagree with this and you mentioned a few. It is an excellent and worthy debate and nothing would please me more than someone to show us science and settle the debate.

Until then I stand very strongly by what I’ve said here.

 

[Jon]

Would you mind telling me what it is in one or two brief sentences please? I really don't have time to read her journal to find out. Where does he top?

Grow til node five is peeking out and top from there down to right above three. All it is is topping real low and using the first side branch quad as the base of your grow. It’s nothing.

 

[Jon]

@Trala has a beautiful example right now.

Trala’s Tent

Actually reminds me of a story, a wardie was x1 with a shit dipped patient. I was cleaning, he was log rolling. Anyhoo he was hungover af, and legit said “hang on Tra, hang on..” raced to my side of the bed and turned and spewed in the bin that was beside me. I dry wretched and lolled at the...

www.420magazine.com

You’re correct if you’re saying topping does not affect the DAY it shows sex. But it absolutely affects when it goes into full flowering. It can be tweaked, like everything else. If you know how to speak the plant’s language.

All I can say to anyone regarding their opinion on autos- they have changed. The genetics, the yields, especially the methods. All changed.
Is weed the same as it was 40 years ago? Hell no, it’s not even the same it was 5 years ago.

Plenty of examples around here of autos performing exactly the opposite of popular opinion.

Hi @Justin Goody! Thanks for chiming in as you were mentioned already in this discussion. Yes. What you clarify here IS correct. But that is not what was asserted. The assertion in question is that topping makes the plant begin to flower at a different time than it would were it not topped. And that is simply not the case. Which is what I was trying to explain. Can the rest be tweaked as you say? Sure! But one cannot change the preordained day that any seed that grows an auto will flip that auto to flower. It is determined by genetics and built in to the seed before it is popped.

Does that make my argument clearer and can you prove me wrong with science? If you can PLEASE DO!!!! And again, thanks. Your participation here is greatly appreciated as you are well known as one of the best on the forum and most definitely know wtf you are talking about.

 

[Jon]

Hi @Justin Goody! Thanks for chiming in as you were mentioned already in this discussion. Yes. What you clarify here IS correct. But that is not what was asserted. The assertion in question is that topping makes the plant begin to flower at a different time than it would were it not topped. And that is simply not the case. Which is what I was trying to explain. Can the rest be tweaked as you say? Sure! But one cannot change the preordained day that any seed that grows an auto will flip that auto to flower. It is determined by genetics and built in to the seed before it is popped.

Does that make my argument clearer and can you prove me wrong with science? If you can PLEASE DO!!!! And again, thanks. Your participation here is greatly appreciated as you are well known as one of the best on the forum and most definitely know wtf you are talking about.

Your assertion basically says you are able to affect the length of time of the stretch. And that’s simple. I do it every auto I grow and that is almost entirely determined by your training and topping.

 

[Jon]

Hi Nick!

Schools in buddy! I suggest you would be well served to watch and learn.

 

[Jon]

Hi Nick!

Schools in buddy! I suggest you would be well served to watch and learn.

This rig is fully adjustable to any height simply by sliding the horizontal support staff up or down as desired. It is also capable of leaning forward and pointing in a downward angle if I choose, and that’s an easy as a simple insertion of the appropriate spacer up top behind the light, using the spacer to push out the top of the light while the bottom remains static. I can go to about 45 degrees max and I obviously have pictured 90 degrees. And there they’ll be Nick. Waiting. And patiently biding their time.

 

[Azimuth]

Would you mind telling me what it is in one or two brief sentences please? I really don't have time to read her journal to find out. Where does he top?

Ummm. No.

Seriously?!?? Wtf.

Not trying to be a dick here, but if you can't be bothered to click through to the post I linked to, which lays it out in better detail than I would paraphrase, I'm not taking the time to do it here.

Did you even look at the linked post? It answers your question in one sentence. Meet me half way and read the post. Then if you have questions that I can answer I'd be happy to help.

 

[con]

This rig is fully adjustable to any height simply by sliding the horizontal support staff up or down as desired. It is also capable of leaning forward and pointing in a downward angle if I choose, and that’s an easy as a simple insertion of the appropriate spacer up top behind the light, using the spacer to push out the top of the light while the bottom remains static. I can go to about 45 degrees max and I obviously have pictured 90 degrees. And there they’ll be Nick. Waiting. And patiently biding their time.

are you just using 1 side light?

 

[Justin Goody]

Your assertion basically says you are able to affect the length of time of the stretch. And that’s simple. I do it every auto I grow and that is almost entirely determined by your training and topping.

Yes that’s what I was basically saying.
No one can affect the day the first pistil pops out but I think there’s an assumption among some that the plant is in full flower at that point. It’s not. If the plant continues to stretch and only show the first signs of sex but no real established flowers, you can say you delayed full blown flower through topping and training. Trala got 58 days before hers was in full flower.
There’s another assumption that once it’s in full flower it’s done stretching which leads some people to totally give up on them.
I’m not really trying to argue anything I think we are both just stating the same stuff in a different way.

 

[Jon]

are you just using 1 side light?

No two. Installed the one tonight. The other will go in tomorrow. Installing those by myself in a wheelchair, I just learned for the first time (last times I had help), is one of the most difficult things I’ve ever done in a wheelchair. It took a long time and I had to be excessively careful as I balance precariously over top of my plants with my upper body while trying to keep enough ass on the seat to not slide off the chair and ruin my whole tent.

 

[Jon]

Yes that’s what I was basically saying.
No one can affect the day the first pistil pops out but I think there’s an assumption among some that the plant is in full flower at that point. It’s not. If the plant continues to stretch and only show the first signs of sex but no real established flowers, you can say you delayed full blown flower through topping and training. Trala got 58 days before hers was in full flower.
There’s another assumption that once it’s in full flower it’s done stretching which leads some people to totally give up on them.
I’m not really trying to argue anything I think we are both just stating the same stuff in a different way.

Yup. Nor am I arguing in the least, just clarifying for those who grow autos less frequently than you and I. And yeah, I could tell we agree and again I agree with every word you said here. And also yes, it never “really” stops stretching, although when it slows to an almost stop I call the stretch over and the rest I call growth. Same difference. A lot of confusion about flower and when it begins is due to exactly your point here. I DO begin flower nutes when pistils begin to flow. I believe personally they appreciate the extra P and K for the stretch. And although I don’t track this way, if one wants to know when actual full flower is on it’s as simple as when every cola has a cotton ball. At that point you’re officially in full flower. Least that’s how I think of it. Thanks!

 

[Jon]

Ummm. No.

Seriously?!?? Wtf.

Not trying to be a dick here, but if you can't be bothered to click through to the post I linked to, which lays it out in better detail than I would paraphrase, I'm not taking the time to do it here.

Did you even look at the linked post? It answers your question in one sentence. Meet me half way and read the post. Then if you have questions that I can answer I'd be happy to help.

I did it for you already Azi. The concept is too easy for words. It’s just topping low. Barely deserves a special title. Try Uncle Child Could Understand Method.

 

[Absorber]

No two. Installed the one tonight. The other will go in tomorrow. Installing those by myself in a wheelchair, I just learned for the first time (last times I had help), is one of the most difficult things I’ve ever done in a wheelchair. It took a long time and I had to be excessively careful as I balance precariously over top of my plants with my upper body while trying to keep enough ass on the seat to not slide off the chair and ruin my whole tent.

Would that help ? I'm trying to get a sponsor to make them but they are so slack with replies ,I wonder if @ViparSpectra would be interested in making it to sell.
I find it a must have ,I wouldn't be able to adjust my light without it .

 

[Jon]

Would that help ? I'm trying to get a sponsor to make them but they are so slack with replies ,I wonder if @ViparSpectra would be interested in making it to sell.
I find it a must have ,I wouldn't be able to adjust my light without it .

When can you come to PA and help me set up my infrastructure in my permanent space? I’ll pay you whatever you want. Plane fare, all expenses, etc. No trees involved, it’ll be a walk in the park for you’. And you have to see the baddest horticultural masterpiece ever created. A mile from my house, tucked away in the corner of southeastern PA, resides the one of a kind, world famous, Longwood Gardens. I encourage all to Google this place. And if you can, find the summertime light show thing they do where they weave about 800,000 LEDs into acres and acres of the most beautiful plants you’ve ever seen in your life. It’s the only must see where I actually live.

You sir, are a fricking badass. Thanks.

 

[Jon]

When can you come to PA and help me set up my infrastructure in my permanent space? I’ll pay you whatever you want. Plane fare, all expenses, etc. No trees involved, it’ll be a walk in the park for you’. And you have to see the baddest horticultural masterpiece ever created. A mile from my house, tucked away in the corner of southeastern PA, resides the one of a kind, world famous, Longwood Gardens. I encourage all to Google this place. And if you can, find the summertime light show thing they do where they weave about 800,000 LEDs into acres and acres of the most beautiful plants you’ve ever seen in your life. It’s the only must see where I actually live.

You sir, are a fricking badass. Thanks.

But given my low tech, I did think I McGuyvered that rig pretty well.

 

[Absorber]

When can you come to PA and help me set up my infrastructure in my permanent space? I’ll pay you whatever you want. Plane fare, all expenses, etc. No trees involved, it’ll be a walk in the park for you’. And you have to see the baddest horticultural masterpiece ever created. A mile from my house, tucked away in the corner of southeastern PA, resides the one of a kind, world famous, Longwood Gardens. I encourage all to Google this place. And if you can fine the summertime light show thing they do where they weave about 800,000 LEDs into acres and acres of the most beautiful plants you’ve ever seen in your life. It’s the only must see where I actually live.

You sir, are a fricking badass. Thanks.

Id love too but America probably wouldn't let me into the country, I've been done growing weed before I sent @ViparSpectra a message about it

 

[Jon]

Id love too but America probably wouldn't let me into the country, I've been done growing weed before I sent @ViparSpectra a message about it

Lmao! I like to use humor to express my respect sometimes.

 

[Absorber]

Lmao! I like to use humor to express my respect sometimes.

 

[Absorber]

And you have to see the baddest horticultural masterpiece ever created.

I had a look at some pictures pretty impressive but no marijuana plants WTF