Xlr8's "Flo N Gro" Hydro Multiple Strains 2011

[naphtali5725]

Hey XL,

I'm always surprised when folks go thru and defoliate their plants, not sure why one would want to take all the food producing leaves off the plant like that...any particular reason why folks think that removing the source of production from the plant is actually better for it?

kind regards,
naphtali

 

[Closet Farmer]

No worries Xlr8!!

 

[Bassman59]

Hey XL,

I'm always surprised when folks go thru and defoliate their plants, not sure why one would want to take all the food producing leaves off the plant like that...any particular reason why folks think that removing the source of production from the plant is actually better for it?

kind regards,
naphtali

Naph, No offense, but you make it sound like it's bad moreso than someone else's preference. I dont think you can absolutely say it's bad (nor better), as there seems to be plenty of people doing quite well with extreme defoliation. I have not done it myself, but on a batch of clones I have going into veg now I have picked 3 to attempt to see some results from doing same. I spent hours googling and looking at vids, threads etc. I am not convinced one way or another is "better". But I am willing to learn and see for myself if I like it or not.

 

[Xlr8]

Hey XL,

I'm always surprised when folks go thru and defoliate their plants, not sure why one would want to take all the food producing leaves off the plant like that...any particular reason why folks think that removing the source of production from the plant is actually better for it?

kind regards,
naphtali

Hi Nap -

Well, I have always been a "non-foliater" for the reasons you mention. Having said that, I've seen some very good growers get excellent results by defoliating - some times heavily. In an attempt to be open-minded and continue to learn, I wanted to try defoliating more heavily to see for myself. I felt like it was tough to defend "not" defoliating if that's all I'd ever done. I also want to be open to the idea that heavier defoliation might be the better way to go, at least indoors...

Here's where I'm leaning: I expect the results to be good. I think outside it with natural light - don't do it. Indoors, with limited lighting directed down at them, it might be a better way to go when cramming a lot of plant material in a small space.

I believe the theory is that, while those large fan leaves can produce for the plant and provide valuable energy, the plant still has enough to sustain vigorous bud development without them - and you now get much better light to more of the plant. Clearly this is a controversial subject with passion on both sides.

We'll see - that's why I did it this grow, to see for myself. I also have a lot of green in there, and I feel like this should reduce mold potential as well.

Hope you are having a good weekend!

 

[Xlr8]

Naph, No offense, but you make it sound like it's bad moreso than someone else's preference. I dont think you can absolutely say it's bad (nor better), as there seems to be plenty of people doing quite well with extreme defoliation. I have not done it myself, but on a batch of clones I have going into veg now I have picked 3 to attempt to see some results from doing same. I spent hours googling and looking at vids, threads etc. I am not convinced one way or another is "better". But I am willing to learn and see for myself if I like it or not.

Yes, that's it for me -- I want to see for myself. The more I grow the more I realize that there are a lot of ways to skin the cat. It's amazing and beautiful if you think about how simple or how complicated it can be and the many ways it can be done successfully. I want to try different techniques in order to pick the one that works best for me. In theory, I've always agreed with Naph, but sometimes you have to re-visit the theory if there is ample evidence to support a new look at things - that's where I am at with my growing at the moment. Shakin' it up a bit!

 

[Bassman59]

Some of what I'm learning here at this site is that while we may think we are going against nature and therefore doing something may be bad, we have to consider that when we go indoors, nature is out the window. Let's face it, how many MJ plants have we seen floating in a lake or pond 3'-5' tall? Yet that's what we do in many of our hydro grows. Quite well in fact.

While I totally understand the theory being applied in Naph's post, there may be another theory being applied to defoliating which we are not considering. Take for example sunlight. It appears to be pretty well accepted that the sun delivers the required energy to grow our plant outdoors in even the bushiest of plants. Many over 10' tall and 5-6' wide! Yet our light penetration indoors, coming from above, could never produce such "sunlight energy" in such a growth without insane amounts of lights and even then it wouldnt be practical.

I'm not saying one is better than another. Far from it. I am however saying, we need to try to look at the whole picture from more than one viewpoint to try to learn how theories apply and how we can best use them for our needs.

The benefit of being a newcomer to growing is not having too many preconceived ideas. This allows me to soak up an awful lot and make reasonably well informed decisions. Even if it does take me 5-6 hours or more of research on just one little thing like controlling water temps in a deep water culture two bucket small bankroll, indoor, hot ass desert grow. Or 5 hrs spent trying to figure out what all the foam was in my tubs when I had applied a healthy dose of H202 and getting all paranoid.

 

[Mr Smith]

When I first started growing I would try to keep as many leaves as possible because most would yellow and die before the flower stage would be complete. These days I prune to increase yeild and quality in bud. I can really fuckin chop up a plant lol.

Makes you wonder how that lil girl is going to finish in flower.lol
Lookin great Xlr8.

 

[Mr. Krip]

Hey XL,

I'm always surprised when folks go thru and defoliate their plants, not sure why one would want to take all the food producing leaves off the plant like that...any particular reason why folks think that removing the source of production from the plant is actually better for it?

kind regards,
naphtali

Naph, the way I heard it explained that made sense to me is that, when we're growing plants indoors, we're pumping them full of nutes. The fan leaves, which help sustain the plant during drought and times of low nutes, aren't necessary and the benefit gained by defoliation indoors, where, as XLR8 pointed out, we don't have the power of the sun to help, far outweigh any issues created by loss of the fan leaves.

I've done both, and now, I defoliate always. Estimates I've heard, but haven't really tested personally, is about 20% more yield when defoliating.

 

[NorCaliwood]

Drive bye. One thing I always invisioned with one of them ebb and flow's is water leakage. That's alot of water that could wind up on the floor. Well Dude GL in your grow I'll be back
Keepem Green

 

[sqwheels]

Hi X,

Great Journal...I'm always pleasantly surprised at the conversations going on here.

Great learning journal, I'm thankful for the hard water I have after learning of some others' ppm's...I'll suffer with my 230-240, even if the pH is 8.9. My nutes seems to counteract that for the moment. After mixing it's 5.8-6.0 almost every time, rarely needs adjusting

And I think you might be selling that Choco-girl short, she looks like she needs a little more light...can you prop her up some? (maybe a box under the pot) She looks like she's just a little overshadowed by her tentmates.

Love that Lucy..wow, she's impressive. But I think my favorite is the lavander, her buds are sooo compacted together they look like they're just bursting off the stem. Great Job!

I'm about a week behind you, my first defoliation was a success, can't wait til next week to do it again, I think it's made a big difference with my girls.

Great Grow X, I'll be watching.

 

[naphtali5725]

Naph, No offense, but you make it sound like it's bad moreso than someone else's preference. I dont think you can absolutely say it's bad (nor better), as there seems to be plenty of people doing quite well with extreme defoliation. I have not done it myself, but on a batch of clones I have going into veg now I have picked 3 to attempt to see some results from doing same. I spent hours googling and looking at vids, threads etc. I am not convinced one way or another is "better". But I am willing to learn and see for myself if I like it or not.

my question was really, do the "buds" themselves actually need more light directly to them to increase yield? or does the plant in general need as much light to leaves/buds as possible to have optimum yield. i didn't mean to sound like it was a bad thing to defoliate, i was just confused as to why some say to do it to get more light to the "buds"...i assumed that as long as any parts of the plant get good light, it produces the food etc. that the buds need to benefit...perhaps i need to do more research...any info and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

kind regards,
naphtali

 

[4twenty4all]

my question was really, do the "buds" themselves actually need more light directly to them to increase yield? or does the plant in general need as much light to leaves/buds as possible to have optimum yield. i didn't mean to sound like it was a bad thing to defoliate, i was just confused as to why some say to do it to get more light to the "buds"...i assumed that as long as any parts of the plant get good light, it produces the food etc. that the buds need to benefit...perhaps i need to do more research...any info and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

kind regards,
naphtali

I have found from personal experience that buds that receive direct light get noticeably larger than those that are shaded by leaves. Now, I'm not sure how much defoliation is too much or if there is a point where it affects yield. I am still trying to play with that myself....

I have seen some growers here tuck fans and not cut them. I now use a combination of both methods. I still feel that I thin more than others and will continue to keep practicing/testing

 

[Xlr8]

Some of what I'm learning here at this site is that while we may think we are going against nature and therefore doing something may be bad, we have to consider that when we go indoors, nature is out the window. Let's face it, how many MJ plants have we seen floating in a lake or pond 3'-5' tall? Yet that's what we do in many of our hydro grows. Quite well in fact.

While I totally understand the theory being applied in Naph's post, there may be another theory being applied to defoliating which we are not considering. Take for example sunlight. It appears to be pretty well accepted that the sun delivers the required energy to grow our plant outdoors in even the bushiest of plants. Many over 10' tall and 5-6' wide! Yet our light penetration indoors, coming from above, could never produce such "sunlight energy" in such a growth without insane amounts of lights and even then it wouldnt be practical.

I'm not saying one is better than another. Far from it. I am however saying, we need to try to look at the whole picture from more than one viewpoint to try to learn how theories apply and how we can best use them for our needs.

The benefit of being a newcomer to growing is not having too many preconceived ideas. This allows me to soak up an awful lot and make reasonably well informed decisions. Even if it does take me 5-6 hours or more of research on just one little thing like controlling water temps in a deep water culture two bucket small bankroll, indoor, hot ass desert grow. Or 5 hrs spent trying to figure out what all the foam was in my tubs when I had applied a healthy dose of H202 and getting all paranoid.

Yes, it's good to keep an open mind about things. Nicely said Bassman!

 

[Xlr8]

Naph, the way I heard it explained that made sense to me is that, when we're growing plants indoors, we're pumping them full of nutes. The fan leaves, which help sustain the plant during drought and times of low nutes, aren't necessary and the benefit gained by defoliation indoors, where, as XLR8 pointed out, we don't have the power of the sun to help, far outweigh any issues created by loss of the fan leaves.

I've done both, and now, I defoliate always. Estimates I've heard, but haven't really tested personally, is about 20% more yield when defoliating.

Well said, Mr. Krip. 20% more yield = more

 

[Xlr8]

my question was really, do the "buds" themselves actually need more light directly to them to increase yield? or does the plant in general need as much light to leaves/buds as possible to have optimum yield. i didn't mean to sound like it was a bad thing to defoliate, i was just confused as to why some say to do it to get more light to the "buds"...i assumed that as long as any parts of the plant get good light, it produces the food etc. that the buds need to benefit...perhaps i need to do more research...any info and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

kind regards,
naphtali

I have found from personal experience that buds that receive direct light get noticeably larger than those that are shaded by leaves. Now, I'm not sure how much defoliation is too much or if there is a point where it affects yield. I am still trying to play with that myself....

I have seen some growers here tuck fans and not cut them. I now use a combination of both methods. I still feel that I thin more than others and will continue to keep practicing/testing

I agree 4twenty4all - There is definitely a correlation between exposure to light and larger buds from my experience, too. I've always tucked leaves as well. I spent a lot of time tucking leaves with the autoflower I grew this summer, and it worked out great - but it also had no competition for the light as it was a plant I grew on it's own with plenty of space.

Thanks for weighing in on that!

 

[Xlr8]

Drive bye. One thing I always invisioned with one of them ebb and flow's is water leakage. That's alot of water that could wind up on the floor. Well Dude GL in your grow I'll be back
Keepem Green

Yes, it's definitely something to be very careful about. I use zip ties to further secure the connections of my hoses to the reservoir and the system. I've seen people flood their space with these - not always pretty! If it floods the tent, the tent liner should hold most of it, but if it floods anywhere else, big headache! I haven't had any issues so far - thank goodness!

 

[Xlr8]

Hi X,

Great Journal...I'm always pleasantly surprised at the conversations going on here.

Great learning journal, I'm thankful for the hard water I have after learning of some others' ppm's...I'll suffer with my 230-240, even if the pH is 8.9. My nutes seems to counteract that for the moment. After mixing it's 5.8-6.0 almost every time, rarely needs adjusting

And I think you might be selling that Choco-girl short, she looks like she needs a little more light...can you prop her up some? (maybe a box under the pot) She looks like she's just a little overshadowed by her tentmates.

Love that Lucy..wow, she's impressive. But I think my favorite is the lavander, her buds are sooo compacted together they look like they're just bursting off the stem. Great Job!

I'm about a week behind you, my first defoliation was a success, can't wait til next week to do it again, I think it's made a big difference with my girls.

Great Grow X, I'll be watching.

Sqwheels!

Yeah, it's interesting how wide the extremes are for peoples water quality.

I'm really glad you have the nutes/water thing figured out, I know that was a headache for a bit.

The Chocolope is definitely not getting as much light as I'd like to give her, but it's all I've got at the moment. Her 2 main tops are at the same general height (maybe a bit higher) as the rest of the canopy in there now - but she's definitely pushed to the side and being bullied by the Lavender and Magic Bud near her. I shouldn't have lumped her in there, but she'll have a bunch of time/light to herself at the end as she's a long ways behind, a Sativa, and in her own hydro bucket. I really should have probably killed her, but that's hard for me, and I would like to get at least a little sample from her to see how much I like it (I have more Chocolope seeds).

The Lavender is definitely my favorite to look at - hopefully a good smoke/vape strain too. Her buds are incredibly compact and plump. Secondary buds on her are like golf balls, 2 of her tops are close to pop-can size.

Gonna have to go check out your defoliation. Thanks again for the kind words, Sqwheels!

 

[naphtali5725]

thanks for all the follow up's guys, really appreciate it. after other research i see where defoliating has great benefit especially if the rest of the indoor environment is at optimum conditions.

kind regards,
naphtali

 

[Bassman59]

I'm currently reading (again) a 112 page thread on the net on the topic of defoliation. It's quite an interesting read. Even more interesting (well not really), are the idiotic "I heard" or "I think" or "I believe" posts going 100% against it without ANY experience doing it or empirical data rebuking the method.

What I look for more in posts is "in my experience".

 

[Xlr8]

thanks for all the follow up's guys, really appreciate it. after other research i see where defoliating has great benefit especially if the rest of the indoor environment is at optimum conditions.

kind regards,
naphtali

It sure seems like it, huh? But, I wanted to get an idea for myself so I've promised a few people for months now that I'd give it a try, and here we are. I am happy with it so far, and the plants don't seem to show any ill effects from it. I'm glad you brought that up, Nap, as it's a good discussion with some room for differing opinion.