- Thread starter
- #901
Xlr8's "Flo N Gro" Hydro Multiple Strains 2011
- Thread starter Xlr8
- Start date
Xlr8,
The garden is looking very happy. I just got a chance to catch up on journals, it's been a busy week for me and next week will be even crazier.
If you can put some CO2 in there, the temps would be a non-issue. I let my temps get into the mid 80s and they're fine with it. I've taken the approach of not really worrying too much about environmentals unless it gets outside the ranges for me then I take action.
The garden is looking very happy. I just got a chance to catch up on journals, it's been a busy week for me and next week will be even crazier.
If you can put some CO2 in there, the temps would be a non-issue. I let my temps get into the mid 80s and they're fine with it. I've taken the approach of not really worrying too much about environmentals unless it gets outside the ranges for me then I take action.
Xlr8,
If you can put some CO2 in there, the temps would be a non-issue. I let my temps get into the mid 80s and they're fine with it. I've taken the approach of not really worrying too much about environmentals unless it gets outside the ranges for me then I take action.
Good to know.
Good job staying on it bro and thanks for stopping into my journal..
- Thread starter
- #905
Xlr8,
The garden is looking very happy. I just got a chance to catch up on journals, it's been a busy week for me and next week will be even crazier.
If you can put some CO2 in there, the temps would be a non-issue. I let my temps get into the mid 80s and they're fine with it. I've taken the approach of not really worrying too much about environmentals unless it gets outside the ranges for me then I take action.
I agree Steve - I don't have a CO2 tank or burner, but I do use those Exhale CO2 bags (2 of them) and I agree that the temps aren't too bad, but I'd prefer 78-79 with the height my lamps are at from the canopy. I'll do the best I can to bring it down a degree or two, but I'm not going to sweat it too much if I can't make it much better. Thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts - I appreciate it!
Hey, just a little tidbit about pH. As you probably know by now I was having massive pH problems when I first fired up this li'l system of mine. Through research on a very large scale(I actually stalled my 'puter with the amount of tabs in Firefox on the subject) I came to a consensus of 5.2 to 5.6 pH. That was only after finding the articles and then researching their WRITERS for credibility. Many articles were thrown out because of the lack of empirical data and documented observations to support the writer's claims.
Now, I wouldn't normally have said anything about the drop in your pH, but I have seen the differences first-hand. I have been maintaining a range of 5.2 to 5.6 for over a month now, and my little ladies have shown a marked improvement over the range of 5.5 to 6.0. Not saying anything bad about your grow, it just seems to me that a pH of 5.5 would be more desirable if it did drop down like that again.
I borrowed from this post from @Keith Lake to help me explain my position. In this graphic of tapered ranges (best I've seen and more logical than just available, then not) it shows on the right side of the chart (soilless) that Ca and P are most available at 5.0 to 5.5 with Mn starting to become more available at 5.2. It also shows that Mg is at its lowest availability at 5.7ish. Trace elements, some, and only needed in small amounts, true, but they are still important to good health. In general this chart indicates that the area of greatest availability is between 5.0 and 5.5. What MOST charts don't take into account is the INTERRELATION and INTERACTION between the elements chat can change the uptake range of the other elements in the solution. I wish I could find either of the 2 articles again, one from a botanist and the other from a biochemist, about that, but it makes sense that they would react with one another dissolved in the same solution. I'm sure that temperature plays a role in that as well. In both of the articles, they suggested the same range of 5.2 to 5.6. Of course they also pointed out that you don't want to go too far below 5.1 because of fungus, but. . .
Food for thought.
Tell me if that was out o' line.
- Thread starter
- #907
Hi jandre2k3 -
Not out of line, but a debatable topic to be sure. I've always found the most agreed upon range to be approximately 5.5-6.1 for hydro. I've used that as my guideline now through several hydro grows and have never had a problem within that range. Mr. Smith, one of the best hydro growers I've ever come across, prefers a bit higher PH in a system like this - I believe he shoots for 5.8-6.1 with a similar system to mine. I believe most hydroponic nutrient companies recommend the 5.5-6.1 range or similar. Having said that, I believe that many of the nutrients out there are formulated and chelated in such a way that the nutrients have an even greater range of PH availability.
Because specific nutrients are processed most effectively at varying PH levels, I prefer to have some degree of fluctuation in the PH. Through most grow phases, this means I set the PH to 5.5, and let it drift up to 6.1 before correcting again. I find that my plants are always optimally healthy when I can do this. I have had minor deficiencies at say, 5.5 PH if it just stays there without rising or even goes down to 5.4. This stage of Bloom usually seems to have a tendency to reverse the PH drift in my experience, and I always seem to be a bit caught off guard when it happens.
Personally, I'm not comfortable with 5.2-5.6 PH range as I've had minor magnesium deficiency issues develop if it is rarely above 5.5, and fungus/mildew issues are a real risk when you let things get too acidic.
I DO appreciate you trying to help and I don't mind you sharing your thoughts. I did want to share what has worked well for me so far.
Take care and thanks for sharing your thoughts and research.
Here is the chart I like best for PH:
NP, like I said... there's nothing wrong with what you have goin' there, I was just pitchin' in my experience in my own li'l grow I have here in response to your twinge of worry about a dip to 5.5. I was saying it might do them a tiny bit o' good is all. If not, at least it won't harm them!
I too was afraid to stray south of 5.5 but at the urging of a couple of people here, I lowered to 5.2 and GDP instantly responded (1-2days hehehe that's instant in the plant world) and returned to health very soon. Now, the twins, the SourD and the GDP and her new clone are all at 5.2 - 5.6 with no probs. so... yeah... that's my stand! This is life. So go and have a ball. Because the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you may not be right for some. You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have...my opening (or closing) statement. Sit, Ubu, sit. Good dog.
-Peter Griffin
Still hats off to ya on the grow, just wish I could share with ya. -Peter Griffin
And well argued!
I do so love a friendly debate! I just have one minor thing though. Although your chart is a good reference, and easy to understand being more black and white as in available/not available, I'm pretty sure that availability doesn't abruptly end like it shows in the second chart. >.> heheBe well, my friend!
btw, I still bow to your talent!
- Thread starter
- #909
NP, like I said... there's nothing wrong with what you have goin' there, I was just pitchin' in my experience in my own li'l grow I have here in response to your twinge of worry about a dip to 5.5. I was saying it might do them a tiny bit o' good is all. If not, at least it won't harm them!
This is life. So go and have a ball. Because the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you may not be right for some. You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have...my opening (or closing) statement. Sit, Ubu, sit. Good dog.Still hats off to ya on the grow, just wish I could share with ya.
-Peter Griffin
And well argued!
Be well, my friend!
btw, I still bow to your talent!
for the compliment, that's very kind. I worry that you're flirting with trouble if you use that lower PH range as your guide (5.2-5.6), and don't want to see you with any problems/deficiencies. Having said that, I admire your willingness to try something outside the box and will be happy to learn from you if you are able to produce good results at that PH. I'm confident that 5.5-6.1 works great in the forms of hydro I tried, so I'm not sure what there is to gain from challenging the accepted wisdom?
Definitely interested in learning from your experience! Thanks for weighing in, and thanks again for the kind words.
I'd love to have Corey from Blue Planet Nutrients weigh in on this... you out there Corey?
- Thread starter
- #910
Yesterday... I flushed and managed to lower the temp to 79f as planned. The buds are packing on insane weight right now, and man are they getting pungent and sticky! 
Sorry I haven't been getting to other journals much the last couple of days, hope to get caught up tonight/soon!
Sorry I haven't been getting to other journals much the last couple of days, hope to get caught up tonight/soon!
Yesterday... I flushed and managed to lower the temp to 79f as planned. The buds are packing on insane weight right now, and man are they getting pungent and sticky!
Sorry I haven't been getting to other journals much the last couple of days, hope to get caught up tonight/soon!
Nice! Gotta love that "insane weight"!
I don't even think my scale goes to "insane"???
- Thread starter
- #912
Nice! Gotta love that "insane weight"!
I don't even think my scale goes to "insane"???
Are you sure? Look just below "really friggin' insane!"
Drive Bye Duck. Keepem Green
OG13
New Member
Nice! Gotta love that "insane weight"!
I don't even think my scale goes to "insane"???
Like the amp that goes to 11......Spinal Tap
For a little humidity kick, you may try adding a flood cycle to your "day" to provide a little more moisture. The plants are drinking a bunch when it is dry, but the ton also dries out faster too.
Hi X,
It took me a little while but I finally caught up... things look great.
I had a thought about the light and the cross over thing...what if you tipped each light out just slightly? to eliminate some of the crossover? I don't know if this would work or not, don't laugh if it sounds stupid. I only have one light and never considered such a problem before, but it seems like it might help.
Just a thought
It took me a little while but I finally caught up... things look great.
I had a thought about the light and the cross over thing...what if you tipped each light out just slightly? to eliminate some of the crossover? I don't know if this would work or not, don't laugh if it sounds stupid. I only have one light and never considered such a problem before, but it seems like it might help.
Just a thought
hehehe, look at my post of "The Challenge:" *that's* outside the box, while dealing with a box! I love to try different things. and I love even more, trying different things and getting as good or better results than previously gotten!
YAY! He continues the debate!
To me, tried and true, I have tried. And, it's true that amazing results can be achieved. It is also boring to me and seems a bit like a spectator sport. I like to push things, break the rules, and still come out ahead. Crazy? maybe.. .. .. But I have fun at it! I don't do this for money, or for fame, I do it because I enjoy growing, and what I get, I get. Granted, If I was in this to make a profit, you dayum straight, I'd do everything to the accepted correct, and still on a small grow like this one, I'd experiment for a better yield, or healthier/hardier plants, that sorta thing. I feel that just because everyone thinks alike doesn't necessarily make it right. And if I do everything "wrong" and still get better than average results, I feel I've accomplished something and possibly discovered something new! Everyone thought the world was flat. Everyone thought the sun revolved around the earth. Everyone thought they had explored all there was to explore on earth, then Antarctica was found. There was once a prescribed medication called Koka......cocaine in today's terms. People used to put lead in paint for color fastness. Asbestos was once thought perfectly safe. It was even once thought that cigarettes were healthy. Can you imagine the jeering and images of failure that had to be endured by the first stonemason that built the first unsupported arch doorway? And think of the flying buttress in the soaring Gothic Cathedrals!! Can you imagine how wrong he was putting stones huge 20, 30, 80 feet in the air with nothing to support it from underneath? Everyone thinks 5.5 to 6.1 is the only correct range. . . . . I've seen different, and am seeing different in my own plants. While it's true that I'm fairly new to hydro, it also means that I am not set in my ways for it, and need to find my niche, my style, my particular way of growing to get that unique bud. I have a saying, "The proof is in the puffing"
Let me ask you this: 900g of quality product from doing everything right is pretty good right? What about that same 900g and everything was done "wrong"? Would it still be wrong? Or just a fluke maybe? What if I did it again? It's the "What if" that is so frikkin attractive to me. I have read articles on the subject, and as is here, there is much debate. To me, both have merit.
Will I fail? We shall see.
I thank you for indulging me in this, very enjoyable debate. You are truly a rare bean.
I'm thinking of ending the debate in my head next year by ONLY growing with LED's. You wanna ride along?
Wow....some debate going on in here! I like it!!!
If I may, please allow me to toss my 2 cents into the debate. I am not claiming to know it all but here it as I understand it:
First off, I think that I read something about fungus and low pH earlier in this thread so let me touch on this first. Fungal growth is optimum at a pH right at 7.0 and anything lower than that will severely restrict it. Most of the peer-reviewed scientific material I have read shows a negative relationship with decreasing pH and root rot and fungal infections. In fact this goes for just about all microbial growth and pH. I have observed over and over that a low pH (below 4) will shut down bacterial and fungal growth almost completely.
pH and nutrient availability:
I am going to focus this on hydroponics because in soil, roots can actually modify the rhizosphere (zone immediately surrounding the roots) and change the pH by up to 2 units which will modify nutrient uptake significantly. Hydroponics is different because the nutrient solution is constantly circulating and the roots can't modify the immediate area surrounding them as well.
Now, most of the pH data that I have read stems from pH observations of nutrient availability in soil. This goes for most of the scientific literature about hydroponic culture that I have read. First and foremost, Different plant species thrive best at different pH levels due to the fact that each plant species require certain nutrients in different amounts compared with other species so it is intuitive that different plants will grow better at varying pH levels because it is fact that certain nutrients are more or less available at varying pH levels. Google, "Argo and Fisher, Understanding pH Management". That will provide more insight on the nutrient needs of many plant species and how pH variations affect nutrient availability because we all know as a fact that the pH directly effects nutrient availability.
But who cares about tomatoes and okra, we want to know about Cannabis.
Well, I haven't read too many scientific journal articles about cannabis and pH because simply, there is not a lot of peer-reviewed material available about growing cannabis. They simply don't exist. Google "cannabis and growth and pH level hydroponics" or any other similar combination of words. You will find that the results are mostly
"here-say" on forums and other folks that claim to know what they are talking about, but....very few, if any, scientific journal articles that are reviewed by scientists for accuracy and legitimacy. There simply isn't much reliable data out there to back up most claims and hypotheses.
So....we need to go off of what we all have observed as growers as far as what works and what doesn't. We also know as fact that pH affects the availability of nutrients. What pH is best for cannabis? Well, what nutrients does cannabis need in what amounts at which stages of growth (veg vs. flower). Is it fair to say that as a plant matures, nutrient requirements will shift from nitrogen to phosphorus and potassium with micronutrient and secondary nutrient requirements basically staying similar? If so, then as the flowering phase continues, P and K are more important so slightly higher pH levels will benefit plants (around 6.0 for more P availability) but let get too high, and Fe will become a problem unless you are using a chelate such as EDDHA. Too low a pH and magnesium and calcium definitely can become less available.
IMPORTANT: pH isn't everything, varying amounts of cations vs. anions as well as the ratio of certain nutrients vs. other nutrients will affect nutrient availability as well. For instance, we know that cannabis likes magnesium and magnesium deficiency is very easy to spot. Well, Magnesium (Mg+) is a cation and competes with other cations like NH4+, Ca++, K+, Fe++,etc... at exchange sites (exchange sites mostly referring to soil but cation/anion cation/cation interaction is very important in hydroponics as well). Cations will interfere with each other which will affect the uptake and availability of these cations. Simply stated, if the cation/anion or cation/cation balance is not ideal or at least balanced, that alone can be a cause of nutrient deficiency regardless of pH level. That is why it is important to change your reservoir weekly to avoid these imbalances because nutrients are not used at the same rates and after some time, your reservoir nutrients will quickly become "unbalanced". I must mention this because this is outside the realm of pH management and can effect nutrient availability and uptake. This is very important because not everyone has the same water profile and folks using very hard water with lots of calcium and magnesium will experience different problems and have different results as someone using RO water or someone using water with a mineral profile that makes it acidic rather than basic.
Ok, back to pH levels. Much empirical evidence has shown that cannabis thrives at a pH of around 5.8 in hydroponics. This is because the nutrients that cannabis needs are balanced and readily available at this pH. Different nutrients are available at different pH levels and there has to be a balance where everything can reach a happy medium. I have personally observed that lower pH levels (5 to 5.5) seems to be ok with cannabis and some vegetables and I have actually seen them perform better at times at lower pH levels. I have also observed that pH levels of 5.5 to 6.2 offer great growth conditions as well for cannabis in hydroponics. What does this mean? Well, in my opinion, there are a few factors affecting the nutrient availability in nutrient solutions besides just pH.... cation/anion balance, water quality, etc... So, my thesis is this: Growing cannabis hydroponically is best accomplished at a pH of between 5.2 and 6.2. Find what works for you and run with it. There will be pH fluctuations throughout a 24 hour period as well as during the week as your nutrient solution is depleted. Keep it close to 5.8 which is a value where all nutrients are readily available for plant uptake in cannabis and you will do fine. Some fluctuation around this value is great and expected. I hate to come up with such a general and blanket analysis but hell, I have seen many successful hydroponic grows and not all of them had a pH of exactly 5.8 the entire way through. Most of my grows have dropped down in to the low 5's due to my water profile and I have had great results...
This is a great debate and I welcome anyone to help me fill in the gaps...
If I may, please allow me to toss my 2 cents into the debate. I am not claiming to know it all but here it as I understand it:
First off, I think that I read something about fungus and low pH earlier in this thread so let me touch on this first. Fungal growth is optimum at a pH right at 7.0 and anything lower than that will severely restrict it. Most of the peer-reviewed scientific material I have read shows a negative relationship with decreasing pH and root rot and fungal infections. In fact this goes for just about all microbial growth and pH. I have observed over and over that a low pH (below 4) will shut down bacterial and fungal growth almost completely.
pH and nutrient availability:
I am going to focus this on hydroponics because in soil, roots can actually modify the rhizosphere (zone immediately surrounding the roots) and change the pH by up to 2 units which will modify nutrient uptake significantly. Hydroponics is different because the nutrient solution is constantly circulating and the roots can't modify the immediate area surrounding them as well.
Now, most of the pH data that I have read stems from pH observations of nutrient availability in soil. This goes for most of the scientific literature about hydroponic culture that I have read. First and foremost, Different plant species thrive best at different pH levels due to the fact that each plant species require certain nutrients in different amounts compared with other species so it is intuitive that different plants will grow better at varying pH levels because it is fact that certain nutrients are more or less available at varying pH levels. Google, "Argo and Fisher, Understanding pH Management". That will provide more insight on the nutrient needs of many plant species and how pH variations affect nutrient availability because we all know as a fact that the pH directly effects nutrient availability.
But who cares about tomatoes and okra, we want to know about Cannabis.
Well, I haven't read too many scientific journal articles about cannabis and pH because simply, there is not a lot of peer-reviewed material available about growing cannabis. They simply don't exist. Google "cannabis and growth and pH level hydroponics" or any other similar combination of words. You will find that the results are mostly
"here-say" on forums and other folks that claim to know what they are talking about, but....very few, if any, scientific journal articles that are reviewed by scientists for accuracy and legitimacy. There simply isn't much reliable data out there to back up most claims and hypotheses.
So....we need to go off of what we all have observed as growers as far as what works and what doesn't. We also know as fact that pH affects the availability of nutrients. What pH is best for cannabis? Well, what nutrients does cannabis need in what amounts at which stages of growth (veg vs. flower). Is it fair to say that as a plant matures, nutrient requirements will shift from nitrogen to phosphorus and potassium with micronutrient and secondary nutrient requirements basically staying similar? If so, then as the flowering phase continues, P and K are more important so slightly higher pH levels will benefit plants (around 6.0 for more P availability) but let get too high, and Fe will become a problem unless you are using a chelate such as EDDHA. Too low a pH and magnesium and calcium definitely can become less available.
IMPORTANT: pH isn't everything, varying amounts of cations vs. anions as well as the ratio of certain nutrients vs. other nutrients will affect nutrient availability as well. For instance, we know that cannabis likes magnesium and magnesium deficiency is very easy to spot. Well, Magnesium (Mg+) is a cation and competes with other cations like NH4+, Ca++, K+, Fe++,etc... at exchange sites (exchange sites mostly referring to soil but cation/anion cation/cation interaction is very important in hydroponics as well). Cations will interfere with each other which will affect the uptake and availability of these cations. Simply stated, if the cation/anion or cation/cation balance is not ideal or at least balanced, that alone can be a cause of nutrient deficiency regardless of pH level. That is why it is important to change your reservoir weekly to avoid these imbalances because nutrients are not used at the same rates and after some time, your reservoir nutrients will quickly become "unbalanced". I must mention this because this is outside the realm of pH management and can effect nutrient availability and uptake. This is very important because not everyone has the same water profile and folks using very hard water with lots of calcium and magnesium will experience different problems and have different results as someone using RO water or someone using water with a mineral profile that makes it acidic rather than basic.
Ok, back to pH levels. Much empirical evidence has shown that cannabis thrives at a pH of around 5.8 in hydroponics. This is because the nutrients that cannabis needs are balanced and readily available at this pH. Different nutrients are available at different pH levels and there has to be a balance where everything can reach a happy medium. I have personally observed that lower pH levels (5 to 5.5) seems to be ok with cannabis and some vegetables and I have actually seen them perform better at times at lower pH levels. I have also observed that pH levels of 5.5 to 6.2 offer great growth conditions as well for cannabis in hydroponics. What does this mean? Well, in my opinion, there are a few factors affecting the nutrient availability in nutrient solutions besides just pH.... cation/anion balance, water quality, etc... So, my thesis is this: Growing cannabis hydroponically is best accomplished at a pH of between 5.2 and 6.2. Find what works for you and run with it. There will be pH fluctuations throughout a 24 hour period as well as during the week as your nutrient solution is depleted. Keep it close to 5.8 which is a value where all nutrients are readily available for plant uptake in cannabis and you will do fine. Some fluctuation around this value is great and expected. I hate to come up with such a general and blanket analysis but hell, I have seen many successful hydroponic grows and not all of them had a pH of exactly 5.8 the entire way through. Most of my grows have dropped down in to the low 5's due to my water profile and I have had great results...
This is a great debate and I welcome anyone to help me fill in the gaps...
Well would you look at that! hehehehe It seems neither of us is wrong! Thank you Blue Planet Nutrients for chiming in. I wasn't saying Xlr8 was wrong, merely debating that neither was I. It seems that we possibly are having different results because of the water profile. I use distilled water in my grow. Xlr8? I think I read RO somewhere.
Corey....you didn't leave any gaps to fill, lol..
+ reps
i will say that i have noticed that different strains have their own ph preference ...sativas thriving with higher ph and indicas lower...seems ruderalis likes it all, even seen good results in soil with ph of 5!!!
GT
+ reps
i will say that i have noticed that different strains have their own ph preference ...sativas thriving with higher ph and indicas lower...seems ruderalis likes it all, even seen good results in soil with ph of 5!!!
GT
- Thread starter
- #920
As far as the whole PH "debate". I appreciate greatly the dialogue, and thanks Corey for taking the time to post your thoughts as well - that was an excellent post and I'm sure it took a few minutes to put together.
Jandre2k3: feel free to take the path that suits you best. I had no real interest in debate, and I'm fully aware that different strains, mediums, etc., have different needs.
I really just want to see you succeed, and for me to advise you, or anyone else new to growing (or returning to growing) to take the course you've decided on would be silly. My big mistake is that you really don't want my advice, or perhaps more accurately prefer the path you've chosen to what I have to say. No problem.
Between the plants I've grown, and the dozens I've followed I've never seen anyone have PH problems by keeping it between 5.5-6.1 in hydro. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. But, look - I'm not half the grower many others are here.
Sure you MIGHT be successful outside of the range I suggested, and some people are. Most people new to growing, or starting again, will be better advised to stick with what is known to work well - in my opinion. It's totally cool that you do what you want to do, however, as I've said I'll be happy to learn from your experiences either way.
If you'd like any further "debate" you'll have to find someone and somewhere else to debate it. I've shared and reiterated my opinion, and you've taken plenty of space in my journal to share yours. Time to move things...
:focus:
Jandre2k3: feel free to take the path that suits you best. I had no real interest in debate, and I'm fully aware that different strains, mediums, etc., have different needs.
I really just want to see you succeed, and for me to advise you, or anyone else new to growing (or returning to growing) to take the course you've decided on would be silly. My big mistake is that you really don't want my advice, or perhaps more accurately prefer the path you've chosen to what I have to say. No problem.
Between the plants I've grown, and the dozens I've followed I've never seen anyone have PH problems by keeping it between 5.5-6.1 in hydro. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. But, look - I'm not half the grower many others are here.
Sure you MIGHT be successful outside of the range I suggested, and some people are. Most people new to growing, or starting again, will be better advised to stick with what is known to work well - in my opinion. It's totally cool that you do what you want to do, however, as I've said I'll be happy to learn from your experiences either way.
If you'd like any further "debate" you'll have to find someone and somewhere else to debate it. I've shared and reiterated my opinion, and you've taken plenty of space in my journal to share yours. Time to move things...
:focus: